Are humans naturally good/decent or bad/indecent and why?

What makes them indecent? If anything the argument for indecency springs from the nature of the world. The fact that what is done is hard to undo. What you do in a moment of weakness or rage cannot be easily undone unfortunately.

Whether or not this relates to decency is arguable

>let me ask a question an open ended question, that can't be justified and has literally been asked for thousands of years.

Quality post OP

Humans are adaptive survivalist, that's why we pick up on trends and strive to keep up with the sexuality of our society.

Anyone who doesn't is not normal

It's a little more easy for me. Civility sprouted from the idea that humans can change and rationalize things. With that, came responsibility to act a certain way towards people, in order to optimize everyone's life. Without these learned values, humans only act in their selfish interest, disregarding any decency towards others. Look at kids who werent raised by parents who taught them morality.

A child who isn't doesn't learn to act in a kind or wholesome nature won't know that taking another child's toy is bad, because the kid is happy that he has it now.

The whole point of western philosophy (and religion) is that humans are bad but can change. That is the single division between humans and animals. The fact that we can change and act differently on will in order to better fit societies needs in a moral way is the best argument for a civil and decent society.

Besides, if humans weren't indecent in nature, what would the purpose of a govt have? Regardless of your political views, the only reason a government was constructed in the first place is because the lack of order and overwhelming anarchy that would encompass an area.

Good and Bad are spooks. Humans are not rational beings driven by utility, they're emotional beings driven by social status.

>The fact that we can change...on will
But that's not true, user. Someone who believes or thinks something can't just undo that. If I hold out my hand and show you two quarters, can you just "change" and believe I have three quarters in my hand? You believe what you believe, will has nothing to do with it. Now you can pretend to believe differently, you can lie and tell me you believe I have three quarters, but you can't change how you implicitly feel about the matter. You can try and change your belief, but it's not as simple as flipping a switch.

Okay you're talking about perception vs reality.. Not changing an intangible value. I agree, perception does not equal reality. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I'm saying humans can change their values and motivations and desires in life, not that they can change what an objective reality is.

>I'm saying humans can change their values and motivations and desires in life
Animals can do that as well though. There's nothing really special about being able to change your motivations, animals certainly don't have one single motivation their entire lives. It changes, same as humans.

An animal does have have the ability as a human. I genuinely do not understand how of all my arguments, that I'd the one you can try to pick apart. An animals motivation is pure survival. Outside of that, as pets, the behavior is mostly influenced by the owner and is trained, but lacks the ability to have an understanding of thought value. In other words, an animal or pet cannot give existential value to their life. A dog who grows up biting people, will not be able to admit itself through reformation without outside factors training it. More importantly, the animal doesn't understand the concept of biting is ultimately "bad". They don't assign a value to their actions and only act based on what they learned, not why they learn it.

If animals understood that concept, don't you think nature would act in different ways? Are you going to say that a dog is morally wrong for biting a squirrel without eating it? You would have to following your logic, because your argument insists that animals aren't only driven by instinct, but also morals.

both
if you can't control yourself well enough to fit somewhere in society you will be ostracized and live like a wild animal all the while still having the basic human need to belong to a group, even if loosely
but societies can be OK with all sorts of awful shit so long it can be used as a bonding mechanism

Does not have the ability as a human*

I used to think people were naturally good, but then I worked customer service for a few years while waiting for my degree to pay off, I know better now. Hope I never have to do customer service again for the rest of my life.

Society is an important part of keeping mankind's base natures under control.

Good shit

I-is this where they filmed the Plane Scene?

these Normies are driven by evolution, they instinctively see us as predators or parasites, women see us as unfit, men see us as competition.

This explains a surprising amount off human behavior. /pol/'s obsession with cucky numales for example is them exercising their instinct to establish dominance and breeding rights over rival males. In some cases the repressed bisexuals of /pol/ combine this with their repressed sexual urges and want to turn us into sissies/twinks, feminizing us to justify it.

The hypocrisy that we likewise have every reason to view them as parasites for denying us opportunities society would offer to anyone else of equal merit or that they are treating us the same way they would be treated in the deep south in the 50s doesn't occur to them. Any kind of morals are suspended in our case. I mean, just look at us, when we were teenagers we were cringy scraggly little things and now as adults we can barely scrape together a few hours of awkward socialization so we will never be charismatic Chads.

We have the same instinct to bully and gain pleasure from the suffering from others, the difference is we have had to confront it while normies have turned denialism into an art and hide it under layers of "culture". No, it's not human nature, it is only bad when it happens to us and it is this artificial evil that can be purged by joining our group, naturally, leftists will say.

The state of modern psychology is a joke so this glaring aspect of our existence will never be looked at.

It's kind of complicated. If I had to sum it up I would say Plato got it right. It's a game of refining yourself. There is a right way to do everything which is the path to the divine, the most godly and harmonious thing that one could do for everything. Naturally, we're not anything, but if you're a good guy in the world then you want people to become better, and not worse. So one would say that we're meant to be the best that we can be. One can choose to think this way, not as an abstract truth but refined, understanding sense behind one's actions in the world, a completely different way to being a human.

I think there is good, bad, and a kind of animalistic state of humanity. As we come out of being an animal and come more into being human, we gain more of a capacity to choose whether we want to help the world or hurt it. Acting in such a way shapes one's character.

Anyway it's fucking hard to explain but I'm right so fuck you

I find it an interesting that by their own definition most humans are bad, but good and bad are defined by humans. So humans made a morality systemvin which they are evil.

Children naturally bully other children, it always happens and always will no other way around it, humans are closer to their natural animalistic self when they are children, so no humans are bad but they can be taught to be good and ""humane""

doubles confirm

each persons nature is determined by their relationship with god, user

>muh human nature
Fuck off back to r*ddit
>plato
Back to r*ddit

Real life isn't anime. There is no good or evil

>implying

Those ideas aren't real. Anything that can't be understood without the use of language isn't real.

speak for yourself loser

Humans are naturally indifferent. Whether or not you consider this as evil is up to you

This holds true quite well I think at least, larger groups actions unto others feel like they mean less.

Real life doesn't exist.

Humans are too conditional to truly answer that.

Man was created by God to bring Order where there is Chaos.

Taking the plasticity of the human brain into account, it would be foolish to presume one or the other.

The strength of the human race is our ability to adapt. If society require us to be evil to survive we will, and vice versa.

One could argue that the many different social constructs we see today, and the diverse indevidualts they produce is clear evidence of this.

Humans are like flower plants, you need the proper sunlight, the proper water, the proper soil for the flower to bloom.

Wrong sunlight, wrong soil, wrong water will kill it or deform it.

Nature is bad while the law of man makes him less barbaric but he cant compeletly separate himself. We enjoy a good old murder or fight the Rush of adrenaline is like a drug when it ends we feel bad

Fuck you reptilian fuck , you thought i wouldn't see it was you

Humans are born with nothing, we don´t even know how to move when we are born. This is a philosophical question that does not make sense

So what makes us, us?

What it is taught, a portion of genetics(genetics will say how we deal with shit, like one person more prone to aggressive behavior will deal with something differently to someone prone to depression).

So to be honest we are both, society is made by humans and to be created like that it means we are capable of being good, but we still are capable of being bad as well.

we are animals that evolved this way

how can humans be naturally good or bad if there is no good or bad in nature?

Humans are fucking evil creatures. It is in our genetics. Most brave, honest, or noble people are killed early. This is because these traits are not conducive to survival. Shitty people live have an opportunity to reproduce, control the greater narrative... this results in shitty people.

>implying morality exists

There was a psycological study discusing why the spanish chimped out on the natives of the caribbean. It turns out that when presented with weak helpless people that you can abuse without consecuence, normal people will take adventage. So there you go.