Why was it so bloody and destructive, and how did China manage to recover from the worst the world could throw at them?
Why did the Battles of Wuhan, Shanghai, Hubei, Changde and Zaoyang–Yichang become so bloody? What tactic's were used in order to achieve so many losses in weeks of combat? What was the motivation of the average Chinese grunt to fight the Japanese? What was the average Japanese civilian's view of the conflict? What were the motivations of the IJA for their cruelty in Nanjing? What was it that brought Soviet and American volunteers to fight for the Chinese? (pre-Khalkhin gol and pre-Oil embargo) What sort of auxiliaries did the IJA put to use? (Seen White-Russian and Indonesians in Japanese uniforms)
I own a manga written by an IJA vet with one arm, "Showa Era 1926-1939" It covers the opinions on civilians at the time and veterans after. The mangaka served in New Guinea where he lost his arm. He condemns Nanking iirc.
Wyatt Reed
>how did China manage to recover from the worst the world could throw at them?
At a glance I'd say it was sheer landmass they could giveaway for time + Japan having to fight a major war in the Pacific against the US,UK&Commonwealth.
Tyler Anderson
>What tactic's were used in order to achieve so many losses in weeks of combat? Nothing special, the bulk of the Chinese military answered to its local leaders and no one else and most of those commanders were shitty leaders. It was pretty easy to beat the shit out of them in 1937
Lucas Morris
>Why was it so bloody and destructive, and how did China manage to recover from the worst the world could throw at them? You forgot to mention Chinese civil war(1947~1949) broke out again 2 years later just after the WW2 over, and right after that you still got the infamous "Three Red Banners"(1950~1959) movements, "Cultural Revolution"(196)....etc. All of them were very destructive as well. It's a human wonder that China can recover from all these shits and climb to the top again in 30 years.
Owen Smith
So a collection of warlords pledging their allegiance to one the Nationalists or communists, with little interaction from actual party or army staff?
Are these the same warlords who engaged the nationalists and or fought with them during the Warlord era or political goons who got the position when the civil war with the communists came?
Juan Thompson
1.Massive infantry battles,it wasn't even as big as say the Great Patriotic War or the behemoth of WW1 in the western and eastern front 2.Massed infantry charged to well prepared defenses,the japs have better artillery,light fire support,air support,armor,supply,morale and officers so they inflict much more casualty 3.They're either pressed to service or under pay by the warlords,volunteers are rare but recruitment drives are frequent 4.Censored and filtered,Japan was ruled by a military junta 5.They considered Chinese as subhumans,also the average IJA soldiers are brutally treated by their superiors 6.Soviets has vested interest and want to keep the japs in line,America also wants to keep jap in line but they can't really go to war People always underestimate the eternal sino
Jacob Wright
I neglected the Civil wars in hope of the thread to be squarely focused on the war with Japan to keep it simple, as moving further more into the Civil wars, Korea and post-war political disasters would leave the thread too open to other events besides what happened in 1931(37)-1945 hence most of the questions above would never get answered.
Caleb Fisher
>It was pretty easy to beat the shit out of them in 1937 Yeah, but it still took them three months and nearly 100 thousands casualties to take down Shanghai along(how many days did Birts and Frogs resist IJA in SE Asia?). Which is part of reasons why IJA did Nanjing massacre. To terrorize and demoralize Chinese military and people.
Landon Murphy
yep, and the equipment of the warlord armies was laughably bad. Like, pistols without rifling bad.
The central armies had some better stuff, like licensed Mausers, but never enough of them, and nothing resembling heavy equipment such as artillery and vehicles. The IJA estimated a battalion of it's soldiers to be worth a regiment's worth of "well-trained" KMT regulars. What the equivalent would be in the crappy warlord armies is easy to imagine.
Shanghai was fought by the KMT's German-trained divisions, which were the best that that KMT had and painstakingly organized over years. But they were still not the equal of IJA divisions. Only the urban environment of Shanghai allowed them to hold out for that long.
Shanghai shattered all the German-trained divisions, and left the KMT with no reserve of somewhat decent troops. This included their training division and graduates of the military academy. Shanghai crippled the National Revolutionary Army in the long term.
Aiden Walker
Also brings me to another point, I've seen pictures of German troops and officers posing and advising withChinese troops with similar gear, what were the German's view of the Chinese during that time? (Pic's varies from 1920's to 1931) Where they trying to get a powerful ally in the region or was it by request?
Somewhat related, Finland also had a deal with the Chinese to sell firearms to the KMT or it's allies. They were later pressured by the Japanese to halt their arms trade. Was the same thing done with the German effort to supply the Chinese or did they realize that it was counter-productive to continue training an enemy of your 'friend'?
Logan Rogers
Sino-German cooperation was a pretty big deal, until Japan demanded Germany recognize Manchuria the Chinese National Army was equipped with licensed German products and trained by the German mission to China
Blake Walker
You have sources on how big it was?
Owen Anderson
Mizuki's wartime comics are fantastic
Connor Morales
Pretty big deal. Chiang Kai-Shek's adopted son went to military academy in Germany and almost participated in the invasion of Poland.
Republican China was hell pissed at the Allies for fucking them in the ass during the Versailles negotiations. After WW1, while France and Britain still held Chinese concessions, Germany didn't anymore, and was seen as the best possible partner.
The pre-war Chinese military and arms industry was built from the ground up with German advice and expertise, and with the exception of the VZ.26 and Maxim, the Chinese regulars adopted German small arms, G98, K98, and C96.
Germany got much needed raw materials out of the deal. China was a Tungsten producer, and Germany needed as much Tungsten as it could get.
Thomas Bailey
How was tank warfare in China?
Parker Perez
Yesterday i went to the Yushukan war Museum in Tokyo Japan.
The museum is entirely historical revisionism, it pretty much blames China for the invasion by Japan, it claims America forced them to attack pearl harbour, and it makes no mention of any war crimes, but it does go so far as to honour their war criminals in a shrine, as well as a huge area dedicated to the suicide corps.
I took a lot of pictures and will post them when i get home, it's really quite scary how far they go to justify their actions. Everything is "Japan wanted peace, but then the Chinese shot at us so we had to invade even further... and then they shot at us again so we invaded further!"
Nicholas Jackson
bam
Brayden Torres
>Read a Japanese book in its original language >the Sino-Japanese war is brought up >"Japan and China fought a war." >"Many Chinese civilians suffered because of the fighting."
Ian White
This museum quite literally stated, in the only mention of Nanking, that Chinese soldiers dressed up as civilians and attacked, so were killed.
Worth mentioning that one of his books has an alternative title for the US market.
'Forgotten Ally: China's war with Japan 1937-1945' is called 'China's War with Japan, 1937-1945: The Struggle for Survival' in the British Penguin edition.
Brayden Mitchell
No need to worry about the false facts the imperial defense force has arrived.
Aaron Jones
crude and one sided the Chinese had soviet import tanks but the Soviets cut off supply to them and they had to make do without spare parts etc which hindered any tank tactics Japs use tanks the same as in WW1,to break defensive lines directly and charging in with the infantry The Chinese lacked infantry AT weapon,the best they had was a bundle of grenades and dynamite where they would run and detonate it in underneath the tank
