How was Spain post WW2 under Francisco Franco? I don't really know a lot about the subject past World War 2...

>boy have you seen the economic growth of Germany from the 30's up to 1943?
>pump massive ammounts oif government spending via borrowing with no intention of paying it back
>fund this with *shrug until the war starts, then fund it by selling gold reserves to the swiss.
Economic Genius.
>plus dont forget what happened with unemployment
Unemployment "fell" because hitler made it illegal for women to work, and barred other minorities from the workplace, and see above, if you fund growth with collosal government spending with no intention to pay iut back the country will look like a wonderland for 5 minutes and then crash due to mounting debt.

>Hitler turned Germany from a shitty defeated country to a great world power nation
Germany was always going to a great power, it was larger than france, an incredibly industrialized nation, and since the formation of Germany this has been the case.
> plus if the Reich won the war (or if WW2 wouldnt have happened) the 3rd reich would have had the strongest economy in the world.
The reich declared war on every super power on the planet, if germany won they'd have to be literal fucking gods.

Gibs can be effective economic tools, demand management is important dude.

>heres some free money go buy shit to make our economy look like it's working even though you're not

>The autobahn is s bad example of this, as roads inherently generate money from the transportstion of goods, services, etcetera
Not in a largely unmotorized country like 1930s Germany.
At least not enough to justify the costs.

Actually it was quickly becoming a motorised country with people like mercedes, and several other car companies starting to mass produce their cars. It was actually one of very few instances where the state actually managed to predict the will of the market as cars blew up around this time, the new roads just hastened this incredible growth period for this particular industry, which is why, like I said, it was a poor example of a state failing on this front, as it was remarkable how well they predicted the automobile boom.
Though it can be debated how much of that was artificial, with things like volkswagen being pushed by the government, but nonetheless the industry exploded during this era and made a lot of people a lot of money.

True, but motor vehicles per capita wasn't really impressive even by 1939.

>economic growth of Germany from the 30's
It was all thanks to Hjalmar Schacht, a Conservative economist who implemented Keynesian economics without disrupting the market system. As everybody that has studied Economics knows, Keynesianism works great for economies coming out of a depression, with large unemployment and idle industry, as was the case in Germany or USA in the 1930s. However, in the long term Keynesianist demand stimulus hampers investment and supply growth, as inflation overheats the economy and the state crowds out private initiative. So it's a short term fix that works only in very specific situations to kickstart a stalled economy.

By 1939 Hitler had removed Schacht from all effective role in government, and went full socialist, handing the reins of the economy to Göering who as Reichsmarshall was given full authority to "nationalize industries, set price controls, requisition goods, execute people for hoarding and economic sabotage, and so on". At this point full socialist economic planning had taken over the Reich, with state industries, price controls, currency controls, and an overbearing big government controlling most aspects of the economy.

It is funny Naziboos praise Hitler for the economic recovery of Germany while despising Roosevelt - Both used the exact same policies to get out of the Depression.

And from 1939 onwards Nazis went full socialist, which is even more paradoxical considering how modern Nazi LARPers hate socialism.

>less cars per person than south africa
wew
Perhaps the reason for the expansion was to get up to standards with the rest of Europe? Not as miraculous a judgement of the market as I had originally thought. Kinda bizarre it seemingly failed to get them up to spec before WW2 with the sheer amount of money as out into this process.

>It is funny Naziboos praise Hitler for the economic recovery of Germany while despising Roosevelt
/pol/ is famous for it's hatred of Roosevelt.

>Unemployment "fell" because hitler made it illegal for women to work, and barred other minorities from the workplace, and see above, if you fund growth with collosal government spending with no intention to pay iut back the country will look like a wonderland for 5 minutes and then crash due to mounting debt.

wtf there were women working (also in the Army) also there werent so many minorities in the reich at the time except for the jews and slavs who got mostly deported (in some cases used as cheap labour too).

>Germany was always going to a great power, it was larger than france, an incredibly industrialized nation, and since the formation of Germany this has been the case.

The Weimar Republic was shit it had a weak government its very difficult they would have became a great power without a centralized authoritarian government.

funding military was very important at the time since Hitler wanted to annex rightful Germanic lands and he had to build a strong army in order to not be bullied by France or the Brits or worst by the USSR (the bolshevik threat).

>autobahn a meme project
wise words

Free money does kickstart demand, more money circulating around business's will prompt business's to expand, meaning taht eventually you can drop those gibs programs, and gibs can increase the cnosuming power of everyone if used effectively (I.e, using public programs like healthcare to keep people alive and spending)

Probelm is the gibs cycle never stops, resulting in a mindless chattel class of iphone buying unemployed people, with the government spiraling into worse and worse debt until essential services start to fail and then the entire thing goes to shit.

It's cruel, but the most efficient system is survival of the fittest capitalism, where wealth is solely generated through value and the feckless die.

The neoclassical synthesis is the key, IMHO.

Keynesianism for the short term emergencies, free market capitalism with limited government and low taxes for the long term growth cycles.

Ideally, the aim of the neoclassical synthesis is to stabilize growth rates. Governments should limit spending in times of prosperity so as to save a healthy surplus that allows them
to increase spending or lower taxes in times of crisis.

Thus the growth rate is stabilized as policies are permanently anti-cyclical.

Sadly this type of thinking is rare on the internet since only the most fringe, retarded "theories" are popular in these type of websites - Randroids, gold bugs, insane Marxists and Naziboos.

It's easy to dismiss us centrists since our opinions are more nuanced and harder to explain. An extremist making wild claims and resorting to cheap talking points often seems more attractive to the uneducated types.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_synthesis

Do you have any numbers on how much they invested into the automotive industry?
It also could be that they were worried that the rubber and oil needed for motor vehicles would be cut off from Germany in a possible war (which it did), so they decided to focus on other things.
>That so little of the highway network was complete or scheduled for completion during the war may seem surprising. Yet in the eyes of the General Staff there were good reasons why this should be the case. It was basically a question of strategic priorities. As the High Command saw it the projected war would not
be won on the roads of Europe. The war was to be a railway war, just as 1870 and 1914 had been railway wars. Even by 1939 the railways bore the brunt of all communications requirements. Sixty-six per cent of all freight traffic by State railways, 4 or 5 per cent by private railways, 20 per cent by inland waterways, and the remainder by coastal shipping and the roads. It would hardly have been feasible for this very limited road haulage base to satisfy the rapidly expanding demands of the Armed Forces in wartime.
sci-hub.bz/10.1017/S0018246X00005926
The article also shows how the Volkswagen plant - which the automakers like Porsche were reluctant to produce models for because they didn't like the idea of mass producing a competing model and were put off by the idea of a "people's car", taking pride in their craftsmanship - which was intended to produce over half a million cars per year, instead produced 1.5 million stoves, but only 48,000 vehicle chassis.

Yo, this is about Franco and Francoist Spain not Hitler or the Weimar Republic you faggots

Spain under Francisco Franco was very repressed. To say that he promoted the usage of Castilian Spanish would be a rude understatement. He outright suppressed the usage of Catalan, Galician and Basque. He wanted those languages to die.

Fun fact: Francisco Franco was a monarchist but after he won the civil war, he installed himself as a regent rather than giving power back to the monarchy. That wouldn't happen until his death. King Juan Carlos was the selected successor to Francisco Franco but decided that he had no use for Francoism and transitioned Spain into a democracy in 1978.

>To say that he promoted the usage of Castilian Spanish would be a rude understatement. He outright suppressed the usage of Catalan, Galician and Basque. He wanted those languages to die.

So, he tried to "genocide" languages. very evil indeed.

Juan Carlos was a piece of shit and a shill of the CIA. He literally give the spanish territory in Africa, shut down the nuclear program and become the country in other USA satellite.

>M-muh lenguage

Catalonia was one of the most communist and republican sectors of Spain during the civil war, they got what they deserved.

What if he joined the axis?

>What if he joined the axis?

Your own chart debunks your theory.

He tried, they didn't want him.

The right side would have won ww2.

Spain will be in a lot of trouble since they depend so much in international trade

>Franco tried, they didn't want him.
The exact opposite is true dumbass

I came in here to learn about spen and instead got g*ermany and autobahn

Not that much, Spain still had Morocco.

And Spain could just take Gibraltar from Britain

Grandparents lived under the regime. Their families were ironically enough carlist, but they made friends with the falangists. Grandfather worked for Telefonica. He told us about how employees in the headquarters in Madrid were not allowed to go to the basement, because that's where the secret service would tap the phones. He also told us about how the thing people were most scared about was if a person that was walking down the street saw another person walk up to him and flip the lapel of his jacket, because that meant he was secret service and he was in trouble.
Grandmother studied chemistry in the university of Salamanca. She said how during those days they were only 10 girls attending the seminars. She had to live in a convent with nuns who had very strict rules as to curfew and talking with the wrong people (which she said nobody really paid attention to).

>strongest economy in the world
>crashes because you owe some industrialist some money

> The Weimar Republic was shit it had a weak government its very difficult they would have became a great power without a centralized authoritarian government.

They had an unstable government because of ww1 reparations and comies and nazis harassing their political opponents.

> funding military was very important at the time since Hitler wanted to annex rightful Germanic lands and he had to build a strong army in order to not be bullied by France or the Brits or worst by the USSR (the bolshevik threat).

Bohemia, Moravia and Poland weren't German land. Brits and Baguettes complied with German demands and Soviet wouldn't be capable of expanding west if Hitler didn't attack everyone.

There would be one more defeated country.
They were tired too from the civil war to be a treat.

>By 1939 Hitler had removed Schacht from all effective role in government, and went full socialist, handing the reins of the economy to Göering who as Reichsmarshall was given full authority to "nationalize industries, set price controls, requisition goods, execute people for hoarding and economic sabotage, and so on".

Thats what happens when you go to war.

Great thread on Francoist Spain. A good 30% of posts not about Nazi Germany this time around. Must be a new record.

>2 battleships
>2 heavy cruisers
>5 light cruisers
>21 destroyers
>12 torpedo boats
>nine coast guard ships
>14 subs

you got to be fucking kidding me

Paradise on Earth because all of the commies were dead.

You have to understand most of Veeky Forums like me are from /pol/

Here is a nice video of a military parade year before Franco died

youtube.com/watch?v=Uif5a__syOA

British Pathe is fucking gold

youtube.com/watch?v=F-GoWNyyDx4

I wonder what would happen if the carlist branch did not die out in 1936

>Spain sizes and conquers Gibraltar (one of the most important strategial points in southern europe)
>UK does nothing ??? NATO doesnt mind ???
the US sit on their ass and say "welp sorry brits"

nah man conquering Gibraltar would have been the worst idea ever it would have ended Franco's regime because the Brits would have counter attacked and raped his ass along with NATO if Spain was unlucky if not it could have ended just like in the Falklands with Argentina.

>Brits would be like
youtube.com/watch?v=EXOhw1ELZK8

Ironically, Spain had good relations with Castro's Cuba. Castro declared three days of mourning when Franco died, and some Cubans with relatives in Spain (including my father) went to Spain for an intermediate period before going to America at times when Cuba didn't allow direct travel to the US.

Pretty sure he was talking about WW2 dumbass. No NATO back then.

Spain could've taken Gibraltar with German support.

>it could have ended just like in the Falklands with Argentina.
Not really. That was solely possible because the Falklands are islands far off the Argie coast, so Britain could use it's, even then, impressive navy to BTFO them. There'd be no such luck with a land connection to Spain, they could send their entire army in.

The only possibility to safely defend it would be to mount the SAS and Royal marines as snipers snd RPGs in buildings and bunker doen for Stalingrad tier urban conflict.

Furthermore, I doubt NATO would help, France certainly wouldn't want to go to full scale war over a monkey infested rock. Plus, depending on what year it was, it's debatable they'd even be in NATO.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO#French_withdrawal

Not to derail the thread, but the Argentine Navy was pretty impressive in 1982 though, one aircraft carrier, several submarines, destroyers, modern Naval Aviation with Super Etendards that had just been rolled into production by France.

There was no will to fight that war. Period. There was a lot of inter-branch rivalry and the Argentine Navy just stayed in port after the Belgrano was sunk and refused to go out.

Nobody expected a fight and nobody had the stomach for it. Only the Air Force went all out, sinking several British ships.

Argentina and Britain were close allies for over a century and the Navy in particular was the most Anglophile branch. The war was an accident of history born from a retarded gamble that went wrong.

did nato even exist during ww2...

I don't think you read his post at all.

edge

>did the organization formed after WW2 to curb communism via mutual alliances of western nations against the Communist Bloc and to fiance the reconstruction of Europe after the G*rmans ruined everything for the trillionth time exist before WW2

Being this retarded.
>NATO during WW2

If Sbane would have entered the war, Gibraltar would have probably fallen. Not only because german support was one of the conditions for Spain entering the war, but because it would have been a new front for the UK that was already pretty saturated everywhere.
That being said, the possible outcome of this would be complicated to imagine. On the one hand, Spain was economically fucked, but at the same time had a good amount of battle hardened soldiers and equipment that would have supported the Axis effort. On the other, if things would have ended as they did in real life, Spain would have probably fall quickly (as North Africa did when the murrikans disembarked there), more destruction for an already destroyed Spain but would have also benefited from the Marshal Plan and a democratic government far before than in Real Life.

Quality post

They propped up the entire economy by turning it into a military/industrial complex and it created countless jobs, which is all fine and dandy if you're at constant war, but if you're not, eventually tanks are gonna be worthless and your economy is gonna collapse. Germany would've been bankrupt by 1950(probably a lot sooner).
By 1939, the German economy was fully committed to rearmament. They were running a HUGE budget deficit, spending something like 50 times more than they were taking in. They kept this secret through some fancy accounting tricks, because they didn't want people to realize the full extent of their rearmament, and also because you'd never want people to know you're running a tremendous budget deficit like that. The Nazis also had a fairly generous welfare state to keep the German people from turning against him. One of Hitler's pet theories about Germany losing World War 1 (alongside "muh jews") was that he felt that shitty conditions for German civilians during the war caused morale to break down, resulting in Germany losing its will to fight. Hitler wanted to make sure that this breakdown of civilian morale wouldn't happen again. All of this is quite expensive, and unsustainable unless you're plundering other countries to pay for all of it.
Of course being at constant war is only useful if you win.
I don't think I would hold up Nazi economic policy as anything other than an example of irresponsible government which almost brought Germany to its knees by 1938. Hjalmar Schacht, who predated the Nazis, was ultimately removed from office for resisting Nazi economic policy insanity. The annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia were necessary to shore up the faltering Nazi economy.
Maybe you should read The Wages of Destruction before talking about something you clearly don't know anything about.

This. And also in the inter branch fighting in Argentina airforce was pushed aside and forgotten, while they were only one that could and did sink British ships.

>implying Spain can't just flank Britain all by themselves

Also, even with all the rearmament, the logistics of the German Army was in sorry shape, as soon as the Wehrmacht would roll through a country, trains and trucks were seized and even then it wasn't enough. The whole Uniting Germanic Lands was just something to throw at the masses to justify seizing any assets they can to hold off the inevitable.

i'll use this thread to post some book lists i made on the matter

...

...

ppffss I was talking about post-ww2 faggots but if we want to put it in a WW2 scenario than yeah for sure Spain would have joined the axis and most likely with German and italian support (yeah even if italian aid is shit) they might have been able to conquer Gibraltar.

If the Axis did conquer Gibraltar it would have been a huge strategic and economic advantage for them and the war effort i guess.

>supervised privste enterprise with checks and balances

This, capitalism is a necessarly evil that must be supervised but not enacted by the state, if the state does it, it becomes marxism

I agree thats one the reasons why Fascism/National socialism is good in my opinion

that was because they were basically looting/financing through loans.

>loot jew/undesirable(politcally, or socially) businesses/assets.
>loot austria.
>loot Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium(again), Netherlands, Poland, Norway, parts of the USSR,
>as you retreat loot parts of Hungary, Italy, etc.

the nazi's were fucking savages.

Fascism is a terrible economif system.
It's almost as if you haven't read this thread or the OP.

Franco had to reverse course and abandon all the autarky fascist policies because Spain was seeing very little growth from it. Spain only took off when it embraced the free market.

This, if you don't support the republic before 1936 you're probably a stormweenie but if you do support if after 1936 you're a tankie and should kys

> 3 years of civil war that ended in 1939
> 600000 dead
> 450000 fled
> extremely divided nation

How the fuck is their navy even relevant when they would join war against largest navies on Earth.

And don't forget that they had nothing to gain from the war except for some fucking rock and maybe some useless colonies.

From what I'm told miserable at the beginning, post-war economy and Franco was a retard.
It was pretty good at the later stages, basically a standard dictatorship, safety and great quality of life in exchange of no freedom in many areas of public life.

Do you honestly think that Britain would focus their entire navy only on Spain?
No! Britain still had to protect Australia from Japan dumbass.

Oh, btw Spain still had over a million people in their army alone

Wasn't it home for basically real life SPECTRE founded by former Nazis?

They would still had bigger number of ships in Mediterranean sea and Atlantic ocean. And after 1941 they wouldn't even have chance of defending their own waters.

and they would use it for what? Sending them to Africa? Send them to the Eastern front? Neither of these fronts could support more than 10000 more men. They could use them only after D day and even then they would only increase loses on both sides.

> And after 1941 they wouldn't even have chance of defending their own waters.

The Spanish or the British?

Spaniards

>Sending them to Africa
They were already Morocco

>Send them to the Eastern front?
No, that's what the Blue Division did
warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/the-spanish-blue-division-along-the-eastern-front/

And the blue squadron shot down about 160 Soviet planes

Nice digits
Nice sexy digits, there's also the fact the Blue Division was responsible for the war to last another year. Imagine if it never was dissolved.

My argument isn't that they couldn't send them to Africa or Russia, but that they couldn't properly supply them once they were there.

thanks to him we are now the most underdeveloped country of Western Europe

PS: there is even a foundation worshiping his figure to this day getting funds from the PP, which was the party formed by his acolytes when he died.

we have more shit here than Italy

Exactly the opposite you dumb retard

>unable to supply
Most of the Spanish air force was supplied with German aircraft, so that's bullshit

>most underdeveloped country of Western Europe
That's the UK.

>Franco dindu nothing wrong
You're both retards.

I'm not defending Franco, retard #2. I'm saying that what he said is bullshit.

That article makes it sound like they just went to Russia to get blown the fuck out.
Why do Spaniards jerk off over them so much?

Spain became industrialized, achieved the second highest growth rate behind Japan and became the ninth largest economy, leaving behind poverty and endemic underdevelopment.

> they could have supplied five Spanish squadrons, so why couldn't they supply an army of million men?
German army had problems supplying their own men by the time they reached Stalingrad, so another million men wouldn't help.
youtube.com/watch?v=A_3R-Rkn_98

ha ha fuck off

That's after he stopped fucking everything up with his retarded policies that brought Spain to almost economic collapse and finally let people liberalize the country.

>the most underdeveloped country of Western Europe
This is Poortugal

>They tried the falangist corporativist-syndicslist meme
>corporativist
You know better than anyone that Primo and the falangists hated corporativism and Mussomeme

More like (((economic growth))).

>kill jews
>steal their gold and riches
>sell it off as story about "economic miracle"
wow...

>steal their gold and riches

How the jews obtained all this gold and riches after the of weimar hyperinflation?