What went wrong? Why did Operation Typhoon fail?

Bit late by christmas dumbass, considering there is 6-7 months of winter

>SIberian divisions meme
operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/

The problem with these claims is that they presuppose a complete lack of Soviet resistance. At Moscow, unlike Stalingrad, the city had been prepared thoroughly for a defense, hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace had been made to assist in digging defensive works. The forces from the far east have still arrived, they historically occupied staging areas behind Moscow until they counterattacked, they would still be there to interdict an encirclement.

Categorically untrue. The presence of some rather large Soviet armies stopped them and drove them back. You should try thinking, or just reading about Stalingrad en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad if you genuinely think Moscow would simply surrendered in a matter of weeks.

Helps my case, it details a bunch of divisions being shipped west. But further helps against the butthurt wehrboos with

>The Soviet land model shows that 182 rifle divisions, 43 militia rifle divisions, eight tank divisions, three mechanised divisions, 62 tank brigades, 50 cavalry divisions, 55 rifle brigades, 21 naval rifle brigades, 11 naval infantry brigades, 41 armies, 11 fronts and a multitude of other units were newly Mobilised and Deployed (MD) in the second half of 1941.

Yeah, those krauts only needed an extra 6 weeks to take Moscow, sure.

Not an argument

Guderian's tank servicability report of August 4th was 50%,which means roughly 476 tanks available.

>Categorically untrue. The presence of some rather large Soviet armies stopped them and drove them back. You should try thinking, or just reading about Stalingrad en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad if you genuinely think Moscow would simply surrendered in a matter of weeks.

first of all don't fucking direct me to kikepedia second of all stalingrad was an entirely different case where the red army had like 1 million troops and the germans had 1/3 of that number and still put up a heroic fight.
If they are at the gates of moscow lets say in november or late october thanks to the 6 weeks the russians would've been majorly fucked. No matter the amount of reinforcements. The only thing that saved them was the weather. Not to mention that the counteroffensive of the soviets eventually failed.

And his report in 18 November counted 150 tanks, out of a starting force of around 1000.

Not an argument

Because tanks are so useful in urban combat.

>kikepedia

So you're /pol/ and trying to argue based on what Greatest Story Never Told said happened, rather than the details of the situation at the front at the time.

The Soviets had amassed a reserve of 58 divisions and committed about 1.1 million men to their counterattack in December, which was actually a 1:1 parity with the Wehrmacht, the Wehrmacht got fucking smashed. So going into a hypothetical siege of Moscow situation, the Germans lack any significant numerical advantage and still have a whole host of supply/casualty/equipment/weather problems. They could not capture a city the size of Moscow within 6 weeks or even 6 months.

>stalingrad was an entirely different case where the red army had like 1 million troops and the Germans had 1/3 of that number and still put up a heroic fight.

Not the case. The Wehrmacht initially outnumbered the Red Army at Stalingrad. They failed to take the city, and 9 months later they were not substantially outnumbered (it was roughly 1.2:1 in manpower) by the Red Army when the encirclement occurred

> No matter the amount of reinforcements. The only thing that saved them was the weather.

You're evidently a rather butthurt naziboo. /pol/ is always so shit when it comes to legit historical discussion.

epic

> tanks are so useful in urban combat.
The plan was to surround moscow and then send in Schwerer Gustav

>Soviet divisions from the far east arrived.
Lmao people still believe in this dumbfuck myth? So gay.

>pol
>pol
If i repeat pol enough it will be true
oh and a nice place for you
reddit.com/r/ShitWehraboosSay/

>i'm not pol i swear

>So you're reddit and trying to argue based on what Greatest Story Never Told said happened, rather than the details of the situation at the front at the time.

The Soviets had amassed a reserve of 58 divisions and committed about 1.1 million men to their counterattack in December, which was actually a 1:1 parity with the Wehrmacht, the Wehrmacht got fucking smashed

again only because of the weather you fucking historically inept mongol. The russians were on the retreat the entire time, their only victory occoured during the winter. HMMM SOMETHING IS GOING ON HUH?
>not even 6 months XDD
okay just because some reddit kike upvoted your rather shitty post won't make it anymore true

Not the case. The Wehrmacht initially outnumbered the Red Army at Stalingrad. They failed to take the city, and 9 months later they were not substantially outnumbered (it was roughly 1.2:1 in manpower) by the Red Army when the encirclement occurred

90% of the city was taken
and they were substantially outnumbered thanks to uranus and only won thanks to romanian flanks.

You are evidently a rather butthurt redditboo. Veeky Forums is always so shit when it comees to legit historical discussion.

>when /pol/ runs out of arguments

>im arguing

So you are so afraid of the truth from /pol/ that you instead prefer to use it as something negative and willingly go back to your mindfucked jewish infested natural state.
So this is the power.. of this board..

>elaborate on why Wehrmacht lost at Moscow
>mindfucked jewish infested natural state

you didn't elaborate shit
you didn't provide any source or evidence
just the usual Veeky Forums (reddit) POL POL POL crap
idiot kike

Why are you so afraid of that board? Perhaps because they are right? It scares you huh? That you get BTFO out of your silly views everytime someone from pol guides you out of your childish view or laughable shitty arguments.

Imagine being outside a crack house. You're a SWAT breaching specialist and you've been told that there are two suspects inside armed with blunt objects. You're pretty confident that you can handle them with your equipment and training. You've been told it's a shoot-to-kill situation, so no backing down from either side.

You kick down the rotting door and there are three guys in the hallway, you shoot two and one runs away. The conditions inside are horrendous and there are holes everywhere. You run after the remaining suspect and kick open another door, this time with four guys shouting and hollering as they charge right back at you and one smashes a bottle against your helmet.

This goes on for a time until: bloodied, panting and with two bullets left. Backup is hours away. You roll open a warehouse door and there are 20 guys lined up in front of yet another door titled 'Moscow'.

>they could leave the city to starve during winter and take it after wards.

Besieging Leningrad was a massive shitshow for the Germans. End result was this whole blockade tied up a massive amount of forces they badly needed elsewhere.

Are you insinuating that Aryan warrior cannot defeat those twenty Sub-humans?

>they could have still encircled it

how to get alesia'd

no they would not have been able to encircle it way too many soviet armies in this area

Germans had finally run out of steam and were fighting with the last ounce of their strength against 30+ divisions of Siberian troops came into the fray against them.

imagine being this insecure

That rather show the ineptness of OKH planning in believing their own memes about conquering the whole USSR in 2 months
Russia owes alot on it ability to defense itself with its huge landmass,just saying that winter stopped the Wehrmacht dead in its track is silly because there was still the dreadful rasputitsa and im pretty sure you're trying to instill the notion that the Red Army itself is somewhat incapable of providing meaningful resistance to the heer
also on the subject of encircling Moscow,only the Northern pincer was able to get close to Moscow,they never got anyway in the South
the city was defended by a triple ring defense in depth with a further 2 rifle division as a rear echelon guard,kind of what the soviets had at Kursk,the Germans barely breached the 1st at Moscow

also people forget that Russian broke their dams to create floods to prevent Germans from transporting heavy equipment and much needed supply

>Implying that would stop the German Army.
Why are they such fucking idiots

I feel like most people get caught up too much on how we play Stalin up as massively unstable in the opening stages of Barbarossa and the logical conclusion to that is if the Germans were able to enter Moscow it would scare him into fleeing or killing him self and somehow a miracle in the east would happen because everyone knows losing your big commander in the vidya means you lose.

>Mfw Stalin not Hitler was the rational person.
How did people get it so wrong back then?

You don't even deny you're a shit posting poltard, why should you be treated any other way.

This post is fucking pathetic.
It sounds like it was written by a 13 year old.

Pls KYS, you are not doing your "cause" any favours, Ameri-mongrel edgelord.

They were both megalomaniacs and definitely more than a little unstable, i just remember my high school history course going out of its way to mention how Stalin curled up in a feral position for the first part of Barbarossa and while I can believe he had some episodes I doubt it was anywhere near described.
Cold War at work man.

>fucking reddit in charge of calling the truth out
kys kid your country doesn't need filth like you

>this is the average Veeky Forums tier reply
whoah you sure know a lot about history!
fucking retard

Im curious what would've happened with the same setup in June or July.

I'm from /pol/ I never post here you 13 year old shitskin embarrassment

>it's an "Amerimongrels larping as Nazis pretend they know shit about history" episode

Another thing that's extra stupid about beseiging Moscow:

You're doing all of this with your right flank exposed, and you have nearly a million well supplied, well equipped troops free to attack anywhere they want on hundreds of miles.

If the Germans went straight for Moscow, the war would have ended in 1943.

no
its not to stop the german army
its to disrupt supply,destroy villages that the german could use as shelter from the freezing agony and to make it hard for them to transport heavy artillery
america almost encountered this problem during the invasion of iraq but they managed to secure the dam

they've probably wouldve been bogged down in the rasputitsa anyway,which was just as hellish as the winter in terms of mobile warfare
im in the strong camp of invading russia,stopping just short 130 miles off moscow and making a defensive line there,reduce the investment in the siege of leningrad and make a thrust in the crimean peninsula
my rationale is that germany needs the crushing early success of barbarossa in capturing 3 million men,but avoid the 1 million casualty they sustained during typhoon plus all the attrition surrounding that
its well known that the russian at that period sucked at offensive and continued until Stalingrad,just look at Rzhev and Demyansk or further back during WW1 where the imperial army absorbed russian attack and then launched massive counter offensive which eventually put russia out of the war
i can envision Stalin planning a hasty counter offensive during the summer,and then getting his forced fucked by massive encirclements and in cauldrons while the Germans were in a defensive posture during winter. This strategy probably wont lead to victory but will definitely extend the war for much longer

exactly germans would've won in 1943

>very exposed southern flanks that is overstretched and thinly defended with atleast 4 soviet fronts or 1.2 million soldiers below it is not a threat

>When people say this, does it not occur to them that Moscow was a major and well-defended city, that wouldn't fall in a matter of weeks of urban combat.
Fucking this.

Moscow was ten times the size of Stalingrad, and Soviets were as much or even more dead set on defending it.
If Stalin was so scared and so unstable, then he wouldn't have refused to leave Moscow...

ITT you can clearly see 2 kinds of posters.

Veeky Forumstorians - normal, chill discussion on history, they back up their arguments with numerous sources, have some knowledge on the subject they are talking about(at least basic)

and

/pol/tards - coming to Veeky Forums to spread their cancerous agenda no one here cares about, have almost no actual knowledge of history, they just repeat idiotic myths that fit their agenda when confronted with well-documented sources they resort to damage control like >kikepedia

that is why he dinamited the entire kremlin? because he wasn't scared right

Dude, trying to convince him makes no sense. He comes to this thread with clear agenda in mind. For him, these 1.2 million soldiers are irrelevant, as they are Slav - subhumans, and they would obviously get slaughtered, no matter the numbers and equipment, by based Nazis - of course only if the weather wasn't so unfavourable...

(((((((((((((((well-documented sources))))))))))))) they resort to calling out the truth like >kikepedia

btfo

this fucking guy lol
you are a bit insecure about big old nazeees aren't you?
they would've fucking slaughtered the shit russians if it wasn't like -30C

...

Because winter only affects one side, right? And it's such a rare condition it makes no sense to account for it, right?

Veeky Forumstorians - easily manipulated, dumb discussion on history, they back up their arguments with numerous sources which is only wikipedia lmao, have some pleb tier useless knowledge on the subject they are talking about(at least basic)

/pol/ack - coming to Veeky Forums to spread their true agenda everyone cares about, have every piece of knowledge on history, aren't easily swayed by dumb clearly jewish sources like the majority of people here, they just repeat the the facts that should fit into everyones agenda, posting only what the cold hard truth is

this site was natsoc and always will be you reddit refugee

>Sources are Jewish

Honestly fuck off, this board ain't for you.

Even in the off chance the Germans could have taken Moscow, they would end up in the same situation as Napoleon found himself. Moscow has been burned and stripped bare of all resources by the retreating Russians, and the winter hammers the remaining Germans. The Russians regroup just beyond Moscow and continue to fight, launching punishing raids throughout winter to soften up the Germans for their spring offensive. Army Group Centre collapses and the German position in Russia becomes untenable.

>so new as to not remembering the days of Ron Paul
Absolutely shred my life into pieces.

>I am increasingly frustrated when my friend wikipedia is called out :'(

>le ron paul days
Even back than it was a small loud minority you fucking newfaggot

>my feelings are better source than wikipedia

There is literally a dedicated safe space for your kind. Why don't you stay there, if reality triggers you?

you are the only one who is controlled by their feelings as your well known friend is shattered before your eyes and your dumb brain can't take it in
I'm only imparting the cold truth you dumb faggot

>your well known friend is shattered before your eyes
How exactely?

>I'm only imparting the cold truth
Which is?

so could you guys kindly fuck off back to your delusional board? All we want here is a discussion where your race or religion is not a main factor in any kind of topic

Much, much better source than any of yours. You don't even post any kek.
You are insecure about the fact your "master race" has lost tremendously in a fair fight.
>easily manipulated
You're the one manipulated in a shitty conspiracy theory based on completely false ""infographics"" from /pol/.
>they back up their arguments with numerous sources which is only wikipedia lmao
I can directly link publications if you want.

And stop trying to hide the fact that you won't accept ANY SOURCE at all. This discussion is purely emotional for you. You aren't trying to gain any knowledge, you are trying to spread your cancerous agenda.

>have every piece of knowledge on history
>posting only what the cold hard truth is
The cold hard truth is that you have no basic knowledge on the subject. Otherwise you wouldn't be spamming about winter, as if it was the only factor, but also analyzing general strategic situation, division deployment, etc.

You have literally nothing to say.

>this site was natsoc and always will be you reddit refugee
*pol was always natsoc

Usually I think
'vehicle plus machine guns = fucking awesome'
that bus looks like the dumbest idea ever though

They lost the initiative when the Panzers were diverted south giving the Soviets time to prepare and bring in the Far East units

No. They won't go back, they see this place as a prime target for spreading their beliefs(they won't obviously convince any actual Veeky Forumstorians, but there are many less informed lurkers).

The only way to get rid of this infestation is to refute everything they have, to meticulously prove them wrong, prove them biased in everything they say. At the end, they don't really have much more to say than >((())).

They couldn't even contain a fucking counterattack with a single front, how would this encirclement work?

He would if it wasn't fucking -30 C !

Yes because it worked so fucking well in Leningrad hahaha they surely captured it

>im an expert on Veeky Forums and I know they (the bad nazees) won't convince clever little jews like us here!
The only way to get rid of this dumb fucking infestation which is reddit is to refute every little dumb creation they have, to meticulously prove them wrong, prove them biased in everything they say. At the end, they don't really have much more to say than wikipedia and jewish virtual library :)

rude

shit weather, shit logistics and overstreched and exhausted troops plus the soviets had shitloads of experienced and trained reserves coming in
Germans should have dug in as soon as rasputitsa set in await the winter out

Why are you repeating debunked memes

Holy fucking shit, why are you posting on a history board if you obviously hate history and want to destroy the field with your faggotry

Where is the evidence that German divisions were not understrength, or that these understrength divisions would've been able to overcome a massive entrenched red army concentration in urban terrain that far from their supply lines?

Because it's true, they lost the chance to cut the rail link to Moscow, now what happens even with those Panzer divisions present is something entirely different. Even if Moscow fell I highly doubt Germany would suddenly win the Eastern Front

Germans did a lot of things wrong but Kiev encirclement wasn't one of them
Do you really want at least half a million soviet troops chilling on the flanks of your main advance thrust?

It was the correct decision, but it's a big reason why Typhoon was a bit of a shit show

>Much, much better source than any of yours. You don't even post any kek.

kek is not a reddit word dumbo

>You are insecure about the fact your "master race" has lost tremendously in a fair fight.

It was still the winter that won them that war, not the shitty russians lol, you are like 5 year old child

>You're the one manipulated in a shitty conspiracy theory based on completely false ""infographics"" from /pol/.

Even the most idiotic infograph has more meaning that anything you had to say so far you pathetic manchild

>I can directly link publications if you want.

please do lol

>And stop trying to hide the fact that you won't accept ANY SOURCE at all. This discussion is purely emotional for you. You aren't trying to gain any knowledge, you are trying to spread your cancerous agenda.

I will once you give me any non-jewish sources, the rest of your statement is again full of butthurt, implied by the "canerous agenda".
I know it's a hard pill to swallow but they were the good guys :)

>You have literally nothing to say.

and you said literally nothing with this wall of "trying to refute me"

>*pol was always natsoc

no, stop trying to revise Veeky Forums history like you want to with the war.

>At the end, they don't really have much more to say than wikipedia and jewish virtual library :

So numerous academic publications are a dubious source.

Then what with what are we supposed to base our arguments on? What do you base them on? Tell me your sources, I'll gladly see them.

I agree that taking Moscow wouldn't have won the war

sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.operationbarbarossa.net%2Fthe-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42%2F

Post a source the is either non propoganda primary or peer reviewed academic. Without either of those, your words are worth less than a kosher fart.

The evidence is the fact that after all those misfortunes that hit them the germans were still able to push to the fucking gates of moscow, even if they can't take it right away
Let's take away that winter and see how well ivan will fight :)

You didn't use any source there. You're talking out of your ass. Post sources or gtfo

But they got pushed back from it in the Autumn...

>So numerous academic publications are a dubious source.

kek no they aren't, famous people always tell the truth!

>being this brain dead

>the soviets had shitloads of experienced and trained reserves coming in
Pretty much 100% of Soviet formations introduced into the Moscow front were newly raised.

>peer reviewed academic
can you not appeal to authority everytime you fucking idiot?

>It's peer reviewed therefore it is the absolute truth!

>non propaganda
What propaganda are we talking about?