Is this the place with less history in Europe?

Yeah, if you ignore that they went trough a fairly shitty war 20 or so years ago and spent 50 years under communism before that.

>Serbia being africa tier in every statistic
But that's not true. Should've included acid attack statistics as well, that would be pretty fun.

He's either talking about Samo's realm or Carantania, probably Carantania as that's a Carantanian panther.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania

>Yeah, if you ignore that they went trough a fairly shitty war 20 or so years ago and spent 50 years under communism before that.

Which is typical for african states.

>forgetting the Serbian empire
> (underrated as fuck

*smacks lips*
HOL UP
*puts shoes in hands*
SO YOU BE SAYIAN
*loses war*
SONE FINNA
*gets conquered by Bulgaria*
SUM KINNA
*gets conquered by Byzantium*
HOL-HOL-HOL UP
*gets conquered by the Turks*
WE REALLY
*loses clay*
SUM KINNA
*kills civilians*
EMPEYRE BEELDERS
*destroys Yugoslavia*
AND
*loses Kosovo*
SHIEEET?!?!?

Considering the two largest wars in human history were both fought in Europe and the fact Serbia was bombed by NATO, that's a rather bold statement.

>Serbian empire

How is an "empire" that existed for barely a decade and was held together by some very loose diplomatic marriages "underrated"?

>serbia
>war

Yeah, a war fought in foreign soil, against numerically inferior, less equipped enemies.
The Yugoslav wars did not harm Serbia's industry one bit.

Kosovo on the other hand is developing economically despite having every bit of industry sabotaged by the fleeing Serbs.

>He doesn't understand the definition of "backwardness"

Funny fact: In 2017 the GDP per capita in Kosovo surpassed that of Vojvodina.

Yeah, Carantania. I just grabbed the first pic from Google, admittedly I should have renamed it.
And I've been taught that Carantania is the first proper state. There were two entities before that, Samo's Empire and Carniola, in the vaguely same area. But Samo was just a Frankish merchant that led a Slavic tribal union. And I can't really remember why Carniola doesn't count.

Pic related is the Prince's stone, where the princes/dukes of Carantania were sworn into leadership. Some of the procedures involved were later used as inspiration by the US founding fathers when creating the US constitution.

>Yeah, a war fought in foreign soil
Kosovo was not foreign soil

>The Yugoslav wars did not harm Serbia's industry one bit.
But that's false and you're an idiot, Yugoslavia was a closely knit market and the war affected everyone, even Slovenia had a significant downturn for several years after the break up of Yugoslavia.

>Kosovo on the other hand is developing economically despite having every bit of industry sabotaged by the fleeing Serbs.
This is hilarious because Kosovo is a major shithole and is experiencing massive emigration and something like 30% of the economic investments are from the said emigrants.

>blaming serbs
There's barely any Serbs left in Kosovo and those who are, are mostly in the norther part of country bordering Serbia.

>making shit up
Kosovo GDP per capita: 3890 dollars
Serbia GDP per capita: 5852

Considering Vojvodina is the most developed Serbian region I find your "fun fact" hard to believe.

Go ahead, define "backwardness" to me

thats not finland

Here's the source by the way.

tradingeconomics.com/serbia/gdp-per-capita
tradingeconomics.com/kosovo/gdp-per-capita

Also, pic related

>How is an "empire" that existed for barely a decade
meme
>and was held together by some very loose diplomatic marriages "underrated"?

>Stefan Dušan became King of Serbia by deposing father, Stefan Dečanski (r.1322–1331). By 1345, Dušan the Mighty had expanded his state to cover half of the Balkans, more territory than either the Byzantine Empire or the Second Bulgarian Empire in that time.

>Tsar Dušan doubled the size of his former kingdom, seizing territories to the south, southeast, and east at the expense of the Byzantine Empire. Serbia held parts of modern Bosnia and Herzegovina, Moravian Serbia, Kosovo, Zeta, modern Macedonia, modern Albania, and half of modern Greece, with Bulgaria as its vassal. He did not fight a single field battle, instead winning his empire by besieging cities.

>After besieging the emperor at Salonica in 1340, he imposed a treaty assuring Serbia sovereignty over regions extending from the Danube to the Gulf of Corinth, from the Adriatic Sea to the Maritsa river, and including all of Bulgaria up to the environs of Adrianople.Bulgaria had never recovered since its defeat by the Serbs at the Battle of Velbazhd, and the Bulgarian czar, whose sister Dušan later married, became his vassal, the Second Bulgarian Empire being a Serbian vassal state between 1331 and 1365.Dušan thus ruled over the almost the entire Balkan peninsula, with only southern Greece, Salonica, and Thrace escaping his authority.

It's just bad luck that a lot of the main force was crippled in the Battle Maritsa. The Serbian Empire wiped the floor with the Ottomans in the Battle of Pločnik so badly that Murad1 considered GTFO'ing out of Europe all together. They were already one of the great powers in Eastern Europe/Europe and if they had more time it's possible they could have even been a colonial empire if the T*rks didn't decide to invade Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pločnik
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa

>Kosovo was not foreign soil
It was by the time the war was over. The war against Croatia and Bosnia, however, were entirely within Croatia and Bosnia.

>But that's false and you're an idiot, Yugoslavia was a closely knit market and the war affected everyone, even Slovenia had a significant downturn for several years after the break up of Yugoslavia.
Serbia did not suffer any significant harm to their infrastructure for their economy to be blamed on the war. Everyone suffered losing a bit of a market, which was reestablished quickly. They even export to Kosovo, heavily.

>This is hilarious because Kosovo is a major shithole and is experiencing massive emigration and something like 30% of the economic investments are from the said emigrants.

That is blatantly false. Immigration is an everyday thing. Most people here have far more money than they would like to admit.

>There's barely any Serbs left in Kosovo and those who are, are mostly in the norther part of country bordering Serbia.
Everything in Kosovo was sabotaged by the *feeling* serbs, being the military, police forces, etc. Most severe of these sabotages is the sabotage of the country's power plant leading to years of problems with electricity generation. Now Kosovo is on track to start selling excess energy, let that sink in.

>posts a part of the world exceptionally rich in history

>slavnigger europe getting raped by T*rks
>history

ayy lmao

>Considering Vojvodina is the most developed Serbian region I find your "fun fact" hard to believe.

Used to be, but it fell behind due to Serbs replacing hungarians and croatians and the loss of the autonomy. Now it only has around 90% of Serbias average GDP. Still much wealthier than Serbias South, but not any longer the wealthiest region. Belgrade is that now. And yes, Kosovo has surpassed Vojvodina, those numbers are outdated.

>An empire that started collapsing 9 years after establishing wiping floors with anyone

Serbian shizophrenic fantasies everyone.

>They were already one of the great powers in Eastern Europe/Europe and if they had more time it's possible they could have even been a colonial empire if the T*rks didn't decide to invade Europe.

>would be a great power
>so weak they can't even stop the T*rk niggers

Serbs are the only white people literally dumber than sub-saharan niggers, it's fucking fascinating.

What he basically was trying to communicate is, if Serbs weren't Serbs, then maybe they could have build an empire.

>It was by the time the war was over.
But that's not true, after the war was over Kosovo declared independence so far all intents and purposes the war was fought on Serbian soil.

>Serbia did not suffer any significant harm to their infrastructure for their economy
It did during the NATO bombings. The economy suffered as well under international sanctions as well as the break up of the Yugoslav markets, just proclaiming "hurr they didn't" makes you a retard.

>That is blatantly false. Immigration is an everyday thing. Most people here have far more money than they would like to admit.
>MOST PEOPLE HERE
So that's it, you're an albanian faggot who's butthurt over facts. Guess what, I actually have kosovar friends in real life and they'll be the first to tell you Kosovo is a shithole, which is why they left in the first place.

>Immigration is an everyday thing.
Ahh, yes, it's normal for 50% of the youth wanting to emigrate.

>>With 70 percent of the population being under the age of 35, Kosovo has one of the most pronounced youth bulges in Europe. There continues to be a significant trend for emigration, with about 50 percent of Kosovo's youth stating they would emigrate if they could.

>>The largest numbers of Kosovan emigrants are found in Germany (300,000), Switzerland (350,000),[7] the U.S. and Scandinavia, making almost 800,000 Kosovars living abroad
Kosovo as a whole has a population of 1.9 million.

Don't make up shit.

>And yes, Kosovo has surpassed Vojvodina, those numbers are outdated.
2016 numbers are outdated? Can you explain to me why you are contradicting yourself in the same post? If Vojvodina has 90% of the GDP average of Serbia that would literally mathematically prove that Vojvodina has a higher GDP per capita than Kosovo. 90% of $5852 is more than $3890

>Battle of Pločnik

Picking the only one out of 7 major battles between Serbs and Turks where Serbs did not completely embarass themselves and interpreting that as "whiping the floor with the Ottomans", fucking LOL.

Those 3900 dollars does not include any "controversial" economies like the mine of Trepca or the whole northern part. If included all of Kosovo, the GDP is around 5000 dollars.

>let's deny Serbian history because I got bullied by them in school!
Typical tatar/albo shitskin butthurt.

>so weak they can't even stop the T*rk niggers
>only European states that were capable of stopping them was after they started declining fast
>Inb4 muh poland
The sultan forgot to bring enough cannons

I find it funny how you focus on a few months out of a decade to justify how ebul nato has ruined Serbia's economy while blatantly ignoring my points and insulting me, while at the same time pretending most of the war in Yugoslavia was not fought outside of Serbia proper. I know that, as a Serb, you consider Kosovo your own soil, but in reality you've never truly held it and lost it the moment your dear leader decided to take away the autonomy. If you can't hold a territory without force, then it was never yours to begin with. Say hi to your Kosovar friends, tell them their country forgives them.

Cherrypicking is the only way Serbs know how to function because they are a shittier people with shittier history and shittier country.

>hurr hurr we wuz empire
>lasted barely 5 years

>>let's deny Serbian history because I got bullied by them in school!

>Serbia
>history

Getting raped by T*rks for an eternity isn't history.

GDP and GDP per capita include "gray" economies. You're wrong across the board.

Also, I was able to find 2015 data for Vojvodina
>According to RSO's report, last year's regional gross domestic product per capita was at RSD 904,000 in the Belgrade Region (69.4% above the republic average), at RSD 563,000 in the Vojvodina Region (2.7% above the republic average), at RSD 387,000 in the Sumadija and Western Serbia Region (70.7% of the republic average), and at RSD 352,000 in the South and Easte Serbia Region (64.2% of the republic average).

In dollars that's $5675.43 per capita in 2015. Significantly higher than Kosovo in 2016.

>less history
>less
>balkan

Not being able to stop them is one thing, an army of tens of thousands of serbs being slaughtered by 800 Turks is a whole other story.

>>Inb4 muh poland

>Serb being butthurt other slavs he doesn't like aren't shit subhumans and actually had a worthwhile history.

Cry harder, it fuels me.

But you have no point, you just make empty statements about how the war didn't effect Serbia which is not just you being wrong but being wrong on purpose because you either have to be retarded to simply ignore the consequences of Yugoslavia breaking up on the intertwined markets of the various republics, the sanctions imposed on Serbia and the damage to infrastructure caused by NATO bombing.

>I know that, as a Serb
I'm Slovenian, you massive fag, try again.

>serbs being slaughtered by 800 Turks is a whole other story.

They're serbniggers a Turk probably gave them some gold and told "you'll get more if you kill eachother" and then they annihilated themselves and cried about the Turks.

t. Serb larping as a Slovenian

>NATO bombing.

DO IT AGAIN BASED NATO

DO
IT
AGAIN

Where are you from?

>skipping the part where Murad considered abandoning his campaign altogether

They attacked in the dead of the night when everyone was dead drunk... and most of them died from drowning anyway...

> t. Jakub Nowak, proud toilet scrubber in the UK

I stopped taking you seriously when I accepted the fact that you will insult when you cannot refute my points.
You're blaming NATO for something they did not do, for taking away something you've never had.

Serbia will never have the same prosperity it had under Yugoslavia for one single reason: it now lacks the natural resources Yugoslavia was fueling it with.

To add to that, the reason Serbia wants Kosovo back is because Kosovo is rich in resources. It's the reason they're directing so many resources (mainly diplomatic) to prevent Kosovo 100% access to the mines. The reason Serbs in enclaves in Kosovo is that those enclaves sit on mines and other natural resources and Serbia hopes to gain those territories if an exchange of territories is ever agreed upon.

>completely ignoring the fact that Vojvodina is going to shit since Serbs are in the majoritiy there.

>I was wrong several times in quick succession and have no argument so I have to detract from the subject we're arguing about by calling you *insert enemy of my people here*

Do you think I give a shit? This isn't even an argument about the bombing or justifications for it, merely that the bombing happened and it obviously had an effect.

I refuted your points one by one, with sources no less. Stop being wrong and maybe you won't be called out for being a faggot. Alternatively you can go to a safe space where people won't call you harmful things on an mongolian throat singing forum.

Fag.

>They attacked in the dead of the night when everyone was dead drunk... and most of them died from drowning anyway...

>moving the goal post this hard

I really wish Croats murdered you all. Europe would be a better place right now.

>Do you think I give a shit?

You do if you're this buttblasted about it.

DO IT AGAIN BASED NATO

>Samo's Empire and Carniola
Carantania was founded as the successor of Noricum before Samo's union organised the Slavic entities together. I've read some sources that state that Carantania was even the centre of the realm, although that's something that could simply be taken as a bit of posturing by one historian or another, who knows. It is not known for sure whether Carniola joined the union but there certainly was some kind of organised entity (whether or not it was an actual state or simply a tribal union is not agreed upon) south of the Karavanke mountain range.
I assume Carantania is given that much more importance due to the fact that much more is known about it as it was a bigger player in the region than Carniola (which was under Avar rule for a longer time). And as Carantania was the old centre of proto-Slovene lands and was later lost, it has a bigger, romantic importance.

Funny thing is they didn't give up so quick because of the NATO bombing, but because they were being BTFO by the KLA in Kosovo and they were afraid they might take the Preseva-Valley, too.

Serbs have been the plurality in Vojvodina from Austro Hungarian times (1910 census), no idea what you're rambling on about. Vojvodina was also the second most developed region in Yugoslavia after Slovenia, third being Slavonia.

>you must be buttblasted because you mentioned something that happened
wew, how dumb can you get

You have not listed one single source. You have again ignored my arguments. I'll reply to other posts of yours now.

>They attacked in the dead of the night when everyone was dead drunk... and most of them died from drowning anyway...

How incompetent and utterly retarded do you have to be to get completely drunk and sleep so close to enemy positions?

>Where are you from?
This is in preparation to ad hominem based on coutnry.

>GDP and GDP per capita include "gray" economies. You're wrong across the board.

Trepça is not gray. It's literally blocked by courts, diplomacy and politics. Its output cannot be utilized at this point and thus their contribution to the economy is 0.

>How incompetent and utterly retarded do you have to be to get completely drunk and sleep so close to enemy positions?

Literally nigger-tier.

But now watch the Serb saying it was "bad luck" and that they were in fact "whiping the floor with the ottomans".

>Serbs have been the plurality in Vojvodina from Austro Hungarian times (1910 census), no idea what you're rambling on about. Vojvodina was also the second most developed region in Yugoslavia after Slovenia, third being Slavonia

Yes, because 70% of the population back then were germans, hungarians, and croatians.

Everything is either NATO's or Ottoman's fault. It couldn't possible be the result of their own actions.

>You have not listed one single source.

see >Trepça is not gray. It's literally blocked by courts, diplomacy and politics. Its output cannot be utilized at this point and thus their contribution to the economy is 0.
Maybe you shoudl learn what "gray" stands for. Any economic activity, legal or not, is counted in GDP statistics.

So after you've been proven wrong, all you did was sperg out and claim Kosovo has a GDP of over 5000 thousand dollars with _zero_ proof of it. Why are you surprised people are calling you dumb if this is how you argue?

>Yes, because 70% of the population back then were germans, hungarians, and croatians.
But that doesn't even make sense considering the expulsions.

Secondly, why are you ignoring what happened in Slavonia? Could it perhaps be that the fact both these regions were heavily agricultural in an era of industrialitation and gradually lost their prominence? No, must be the ethnic groups that lived there that caused it! Which begs the question why Kosovo and Albania are such shitholes then? Is it because they're albanians then? This is your logic at work, not mine.

That's not how sourcing works. What the fuck, are you actually serious?

Sure thing Tatar subhuman.

>How incompetent and utterly retarded do you have to be to get completely drunk and sleep so close to enemy positions?
They had intelligence that there was a larger army much, much further away. These 800 were hidden in a walls of a city iirc.

>This is in preparation to ad hominem based on coutnry.
It's obvious you're a butthurt neighbor. At least have the decency to specify.

Stop replying to yourself

Albania's living standard is actually already pretty much on par with the former yugoslavian territories, which is pretty remarkable, considering that they lived in a North Korea-style isolation for 50 years.

>KOSOVO HAS GDP HIGHER THAN VOJVODINA
>>gets sources provided that not being the case
>THOSE ARE NOT SOURCES
gg no re

>are you actually serious?

He is. He's a S*rb, they literally have the intelligence of a cockroach.

Serbs only operate on infinite butthurt because now even a fake country like Latvia is more relevant and better off than their uninhabitable shithole that they made for themselves.

>Albania's living standard is actually already pretty much on par with the former yugoslavian territories
But it's not, its below them. You're also ignoring the high dependence on remittance, despite it falling in the last decade from 25% it still accounts for ~10% of the Albanian GDP.

fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DDOI11ALA156NWDB

I find it hilarious how, when faced with certain facts you dislike, you decry me as a Serb and sperg out.

>tfw my dad is literally named Janez
Stay asshurt doe

You would think when even Montenegrians didn't want to live with them anymore they would start to realize than maybe they are the niggers that nobody wants to live with, but no they went even deeper in their collective paranoid shizophrenia from the evil NATO-Vatican conspiracy that wants to keep the serbian man down.

The region Montenegro to Kosovo is what every sane person would call "pretty much on par in their livinf standard".

what the fuck are you talking about
holy fuck this thread is awful

He's some butthurt Albanian gypsy. Just keep BTFO'ing him out and laugh.

It's true though. The KLA at the end of the war was extremely well equipped and had high morals. Kosovo would have turned into a serbian Vietnam had they kept fighting.

>Is on par
Actually isn't and is below par

>ignores the two most developed regions of Yugoslavia that house 6+ million people or roughly 1/4 of the Yugoslav population
Maybe you should've said "almost on par with the least developed regions of the former yugoslavian territories" instead?

KLA getting BTFO is what caused the war you retarded fuck
when Milošević capitulated they moved back in

No, what caused the NATO intervention is actually ending the war quickly instead of letting it develop into a bloody, longlasting conflict like Vietnam, and which might have restarted the ethnic conflicts elsewhere in the Balkans.

The quick serb capitulation came as a great surprise to the West. Just because of some light bombing you don't just give up normally. The Serbs did this because they kept losing grounds against the KLA, and they didn't want to add another chapter in the long lasting serbian tradition to be BTFO in any war against anyone.

also, I was never a nationalist and I find many Serbs retarded, but holy fuck I'm laughing hard at subhumans like Albanians or Croats who didn't have a ruler who spoke their language for centuries somehow act mighty and cultured
same fucking Croats who slaughered some 200-300 thousand civilians in WW2, commiting horrific crimes that even led German and Italian officers to complain to their high commands
now types who excuse such behaviour pretend Serbs are some anomaly in the region
you aren't human, you're rabid dogs

>holy fuck this thread is awful
Not really. This is a standard Balkan thread.

The thing you need to understand about the Balkans, is that they're not people. Not being /pol/ here, but not 'human' in the sense that we think of other humans.

It's hard to put my finger on it actually, but all Balkan men have a condition of perpetual butthurt. At life, at history, at their neighbors, at other people. Someone who is always angry cannot become great and this infuriates them. To be great you need discipline, you need focus, you need a calm temperament. You can be obnoxious and cherry-pick examples like
>T-Tesla!
Tesla himself ended up penniless and having sexual relations with a pidgeon. His enormous autism suppressed his Balkanite genes for as long as they could but eventually he lost and became a pidgeonfucker.

For the few moments of their history where they finally manage to suppress their Balkanoid genes and were on the brink of doing something great, they then had massive empires knocking upon their doors. Romans, Greeks, Austrians Turks etc etc.
And you know what- I'd be pretty fucking butthurt and genocidal 24/7 if I was them too.

that's false
KLA was militarily beaten when army entered Kosovo
what led to intervention was bloodshed, war crimes and alleged plan to ethnically cleanse Kosovo
KLA played no part you lying shithead
they started the violence, got BTFO when army was finally deployed, and then moved back together with NATO forces
they play no fucking role in Milošević capitulating

I'm a Serb but I agree with you somewhat
this place is fucked up, everyone smart escaped long ago

Are you the same Serb who said that Serbs were whiping the floor with Ottoman? LOL

KLA held all the strategic points in Kosovo and the jugoslav forces literally failed capturing any of them. The only thing they were succesful at was killing civilians in the unprotected valleys. Jugoslav forces might have cleaned Kosovo from Albaniab´ns, but they had no chance of regaining control over it due to the KLA-Guerillas that still held strongholds in the mountains.

Balkan countries are commonly acknowledged as subhuman. Serbia, Montenegro, even parts of Romania and Croatia.

no I'm not
>KLA held all the strategic points
which strategic points? every major place was controlled by the Yugoslav forces
KLA was pretty much beaten and they would be annihilated without NATO intervention
to say ''KLA caused Serbs to surrender'' is fucking lunacy, but I heard worse shit from you people
KLA simply moved back together with NATO forces once the war was over
they played no role in the capitulation, which was due to bombing and the fact Milošević was pretty much hated by that time

>commonly acknowledged

>>meanwhile those territories were fighting Turks the civilized Europeans were busy having the largest and longest religious war in the middle of Europe that lasted for 30 years and caused several million dead
hmm

in any case, I'm not even denying Albanians were treated badly in Kosovo, but a major problem in all this bullshit are the insane double standards
for start, if Albanians had the right to separate on ethnic principle, why don't Serbs in Bosnia have that right?
Bosnia is a fucking artificial creation whose borders are literally administrative borders of Ottoman Empire and then A-H, which were simply adopted by communists with minor changes
half of Bosnian population are Serbs and Croats who don't want to live there
how can same people who support Kosovo case not support Serbs and Croats in Bosnia? it's fucking retarded and that's why many Serbs are rightfully butthurt
>b-but muh war crimes
why does that matter? Serbs were victims in past too
it's idiotic to just focus on one conflict and imagine history started in 90's

That's because you have no idea about warfare. I was a soldier for the german army that lived two years in Kosovo. The KLA was on the verge of extending the war into the Presevo-Valley and that is what caused Milosevic to panic and quickly surrender.
In guerilla warfare also it doesn't really matter who is better equipped and who has the bigger numbers. Controlling a mountaneous region like Kosovo when there is a relatively large Guerilla force there is practically impossible.

>have no idea about warfare
I actually know a lot about warfare, and the fact you were a soldier doesn't give you any authority when you're clearly wrong
KLA was militarily beaten, Preševo valley insurgency happened after the war
Yugoslav forces would have no trouble maintaining control without NATO intervention
of course that wouldn't really be a successful solution, but claiming KLA caused the Yugoslav capitulation is idiotic

>Controlling a mountaneous region like Kosovo
????

finally, if Albanians in Kosovo can separate, why can't Serbs in the north of Kosovo?

Agreed. The place should be glassed and anyone with a triple digit IQ can see that.

t. Croat

>Yugoslav forces would have no trouble maintaining control without NATO intervention

Yeah, just like the USA had no trouble maintaining control over Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam, or how the Soviet Union had no trouble maintaining control over Afghanistan and Chechenya, or how the Nazis were maintaining control over all the eastern european countries, etc.

The only way to defeat the Guerillas would be to actually appease them through integrating them like Putin did with Chechenyans. But that happening between Kosovo-Albanians and Serbs was basically impossible. Jugoslav forces sooner or later would have to retreat from Kosovo.

>Global Peace Index

Because bosnian serbs stroke a deal with the west (Dayton-Deal) that they forego their independence/unification with Serbia if they got an autonomy within Bosnia. Kosovo-Albanians never did that.

Every time

>ekon nomija from the Croat
>Bosnia is into traps
Any particular reason for these memes?

Croats whine how everyone was leaching their money in Yugoslavia and there was one particulary autistic Bosnian in yugo general on int who later migrated to Austria

Nearly a hundred posts in and virtually no T*rk shitposting. Good job guys.

you're wrong, KLA was turning shit into a bloodbath man