To mean something is actually to mean something to someone, and morals are really just requests from minds of how to act. In other words, meaning and moral requests cannot exist in it of itself; both necessarily must come from a mind or minds.
Subjective morality is morality grounded in humans, society, or really any non-omnipotent mind. It's what you expect from yourself and others, or what society expects from you. Objective morality is morality grounded in an omnipotent mind that sees things from an objective perspective; it's what God expects of you.
When you think about it, no one has ever experienced meaning coming from anywhere else but a mind. For example, no one cares what a rock wants them to do because rocks don't have minds and therefor can't want you to do anything. The universe cannot ever inherently have meaning because a universe without a mind is no different from a rock that can't want. In fact, you actually can't even conceive of a real example of this non-mind meaning or morality, only a concept of it.
This is all why any attempt to find objective meaning in the universe will always lead you to God, as it's actually a necessary part of the definition. You're looking for meaning outside of the subjective human minds that you don't care about in search of an objective mind that you do, which is what God is.
Morality is objective because it is grounded in the objective God, but our free will is not. Even if we were to agree on God's existence and have incentives to follow him, it doesn't mean we actually have to. You might follow him because you believe it is right, but the very notion of right and wrong comes from Gods nature; if you don't care about God, then you wouldn't have any reason to care about his system of right and wrong that he's given us. It really is your choice to bind your human will to his divine one, or to not care about him at all. Of course you'd want to though, as God's pretty great and he's got some sweet incentives.
how in your mind is god-based morality any more objective than something else
Charles Evans
All moralities are predicated upon axioms, yours isn't special. Morality descending from an omnipotent mind is identical to morality descending from any other mind, its simply an implementation of Might is Right.
Levi King
He isn't any more objective in the sense of inherently mattering; nothing can inherently matter, things can only matter to a someone. What I mean by objective is that God has an objective perspective of the world and actually knows how it's supposed to run
Jace Cooper
tard
Nathaniel Gomez
Because he made it to be run in a certain way.
Sebastian White
>All moralities are predicated upon axioms Obviously they are, that's a moot point. So what if it requires axioms if everything requires axioms? It's not a flaw in my argument, i mean unless you're suggesting arguing is pointless, in which you can fuck right off.
>Morality descending from an omnipotent mind is identical to morality descending from any other mind, its simply an implementation of Might is Right. I actually pointed that out at the end of my argument, although I wouldn't say might is right is the best way to describe it.
Ryder Flores
Might is Right is exactly the way to describe it. Your morality amounts to the morality of a Leviathan. There is no actual reason the morality of God is better then other moralities, other then that God is strong enough to enforce His upon everyone.
As a Christian, I tend to find that reasoning flawed. There must be an actual reason His philosophy is superior, beyond simply that He wields the largest club. Otherwise we have a situation where the only reason the wicked are wicked is because they, to their own misfortune, were born into a cosmos run by someone who disagrees with them on a point of pure subjectivity.
Charles Scott
"human rights laws" are basically leftist social-engineering so that jayqwan and click click bang don't ahve to suffer any consequences for their actions. Its why they aren't enforced and carry no weight in the real world
Lincoln Reed
>Its why they aren't enforced
>lives in a liberal world
John Scott
actually you're making a mistake, there is no such thing as "human morality". Morality actually comes from God, and our sense of morality is our ability to know God's nature.
Thomas Hall
>All moralities are predicated upon axioms he thinks morality is axiomatic
top kek stemtard, also read about inference rules
Josiah Cox
what I mean by that is there is no other morality, just Gods morality and it's misunderstood versions of it.
Nicholas Fisher
That is not true. Our "sense of morality" or Conscience, does not tell us the content of any morality, it merely causes us to feel guilt when we infringe upon our own moral system or sentiments.
ISIS does not get pangs of conscience for killing people, nor do radical Leftists believe 'deep down' that homosexuality is an abomination.
This kind of thinking is the absolute lowest form of moral philosophy, its literally "You secretly agree with me, you're just pretending to have a different ideology to spite me".
Isaac Brooks
If it's God's Morality, let's see him enforce it.
Christian Long
Even if this was true, this worldview is functionally identical to there being a spectrum of moral systems, one of which happens to be God's.
In order for God's to be "True", it must carry some feature or element that the other systems do not, beyond simply "I have ten million legions of angels."
Xavier Butler
free will.
Nolan Cox
How curiously powerless
Easton Flores
NO, there are no other "true" moral systems, only the one true moral system that God has that we all reference, even isis and radical leftists reference when we talk about morality. What i've mainly done is point out that you can acknowledge this moral systems existence or at the very least relevance, but still reject it anyways because you reject God whom is the source of our morality.
Jose Carter
When I say morality is objective, I really mean universal and connected because it all derives from the same source, God. Now there are misinterpretations of this morality, which is why you have radical leftists and isis in the first place.
Connor Mitchell
ISIS and Leftists do not reference any moral system but their own. If your moral system is superior to other moral systems, why is it?
It isn't sufficient to just say "Well God wrote it" because that is an exercise in circular reasoning. Concepts like sovereignty and legitimacy emerge from a basis of values, the very basis you are attempting to justify.
If your entire moral theory boils down to
"What is Good is equivalent to the will of God", that is simply an axiom, rejected as easily as any other and only defended pragmatically on the grounds of God's omnipotence. Under your model, there is no actual superiority in his system over then its being the strongest system.
Jaxson Gutierrez
A moral system is superior because it is more in line with God's intended moral system.
>"What is Good is equivalent to the will of God" Yes that is what i'm saying, actually that's what all Christians say, morality is not independent from God in the slightest, but directly connected to him.
Elijah Rogers
wasn't really trying to make an argument for God's existence here.
Ayden Sullivan
How can God's morality exist without God? And not just any God, a particular God, The God of the Moslems and the God of the Jews hand down separate precepts.
Benjamin Walker
but there is no God of the Moslems or the Jews, those two are misinterpretations of the true God. Your question is basically "If Christianity is true, then why are there these other religions?"
The question isn't much different from asking "How is it that we know that between all the different maps of Britain through out the centuries which ones are a correct map of Britain?"
The answer is that Britain is a real place that the maps can all be compared to, and by doing so we can find the answer. In other words we look at the evidence we can figure out which religion is true. The thing is we have very good historical evidence of Jesus' existence and his resurrection, and that's proof that no other religion has. although you'll probably want to see what I mean by that: youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM
Then there's the big bang, huge proof again for Christianity because it necessitates something beyond nature (supernatural) to create the universe. Logically Christianity is the best, like really, it just is the best religion. Really the only tough part is just figuring out which order of Christianity is the right one, ya know, Christianity or Protestantism, ect.
Brayden Davis
It seems queer to me that the God of the bible seems awfully inconsistent on his true 'objective morality' when we compare his whims and precepts from the Old Testament to the New. If "Objective Morality" is simply what God says, not some immutable system, isn't it just open to change as any human system of morality? God might decide tomorrow something that was not known for us today.
Carson Cooper
actually no he never changed. he's eternal so that wouldn't make sense. The most I could say is that he revealed more of himself as humanity became ready.
I do actually think a lot of this current "different" view of God is due to the retarded soft soap version of cafeteria-Christianity that's being preached. God hates things that are evil and loves what is good, and that has never changed. If God is maximally loving, then it also stands to reason that he is maximally hating, because in order to love what is good you must hate what is evil. God would be willing to love even the worst of us if we genuinely repented though, which is of course important to mention and actually what people often say, but it's over emphasized to the point where it loses meaning. People focus too much on the hope of Christianity, an not on the despair of a world without God. They don't realize that you need despair in order to actually know what hope is, or to even have a reason to look for it. If Jesus loves me so, then what reason do I have to worry? No you should worry and hope that God lets you in heaven, because no one but him deserves to be there, no matter how much you pray. You can't earn it. Sorry that's a bit of a rant.
Daniel Parker
>un resolutions ingnored >some beurecrat tut tuts at duterte >faggoty lawyers cry and whine about violations in the USA and nothing changes, and in fact ramps up out of spite for their faggotry The actual term for classical liberlaism's right are just "Rights" not this faggoty co-opted term "Human rights"
Caleb Rogers
>all morality must come from the god I believe in because reasons What a brainlet solution to this question.
Jack Gomez
>Implying there are other gods for it to come from. >implying real morality could exist without God.
Henry Taylor
Do you mean liberal world as it pertains to classical liberalism, US liberalism, or foreign policy liberalism? Because we don't live in a world governed by any of the three, even though some naive bleeding hearts try their hardest to say we live in the last one.
Nolan Bailey
But there ARE other gods, and we have as much proof about their existence as we have about yours.
"Real" morality is a vague term. If you mean "objective", then you are still wrong because a god's morality would still be subjective.
Gabriel Miller
>An objective morality means there must be a God >God existing means there is an objective morality >And an objective morality means there must be a God Nice
Adrian Morgan
Someone enjoys torturing children by sticking needles into them and piercing them. You watch 30 minutes of him doing this. He puts the needles into their eyes, their testicles, under their finger nails, he pushes them all the way into their arms, legs and abdomen and lets the child try to remove them and near the end he puts them through their ears and into their stomach and heart to kill them.
You then capture this person and have him chained up. You can do whatever you want to him and there are no consequences to your actions. You also have his needles.
What is the natural thing to do in this situation?
Easton Sanders
Swiftly kill him and then yourself for not stopping him sooner.
Ian Watson
That's not objectivity, you retard.
Juan Hernandez
No there aren't >proof go back to r*ddit
Henry Rogers
Why didn't God stop him? What would God do then?
Justin Perez
Let me extend your metaphor:
>The man bound in chains responds >Why is it that you say what I did is wrong and evil? Because I caused pain? Why is that wrong? Because I've hurt numerous children? Why is that wrong? Think about it, we're all just matter in motion, why would it matter that one moist robot hurts another? It might intuitively seem wrong to us humans because we have a biological imperative to protect our children, but if it's just biology, why follow it Why attribute so much meaning to something that is just nature? Homosexuals don't care about doing what's unnatural, yet you're probably fine with that, how is this any different? Yet here you are, hypocrite, with righteous indignation in a world where right and wrong is just natural selection.
Point being 2 things, without God, there can no such thing as objective morality, it's all subjective and therefor opinion, especially so if you don't care about what other people think. Second point, you do actually believe in objective right and wrongs, which is why you implied you would kill and torture the man in return, you've just never realized that this implies theism is true. By making that argument, you have to borrow morality from the religious world view so you can attack it. Frank Turek calls it "Sitting in God's lap so you can slap him in the face."
Charles Perry
What's bad about human rights laws producing the best results?
Sebastian Moore
the point isn't what's bad about producing the best results. The point is what's good about it. You cannot justify or ground morality from a materialist point of view, it's just not possible.
Elijah Williams
So helping people escape poverty or social segregation/stigma/whatever is immoral? Go figure.
Parker Taylor
retard, how the hell did you get that from what I said? If all we are are just an aimless collection of particles that has no reason to exist, how the fuck could there be any morality? Under the atheistic worldview we don't matter, so why should I care about not causing pain to others who don't matter?
Kayden Stewart
Why WOULD you want to cause pain to someone else? Do you derive pleasure from it? What should i call you in that case, since you already ad hominem'd me?
Oliver Wood
It f⭕ll⭕ws that y⭕u sh⭕uld pierce him because that is what he did t⭕ ⭕thers and s⭕ made it the first thing to cr⭕ss y⭕ur mind, ⭕ne thing leads t⭕ an⭕ther, if y⭕u have an ⭕unce ⭕f curi⭕sity and intelligence it will. A space alien that lacks ⭕ur instincts w⭕uld d⭕ the same.
Were he an elderly subsistence farmer fr⭕m Nepal ⭕ne w⭕uldn't c⭕nsider it. Y⭕u might just set him l⭕⭕se.
That is what justice and m⭕rality is, a natural pr⭕duct ⭕f the mind.
Oliver Lewis
actually yes, what should you call me? evil? tell me how could good and evil exist if there is no God? We're just moist robots, why do we matter? Why should I care about what happens to other humans?
YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER, because you can't get an ought from an is. There is no justification for morality in atheism. Now i'm not saying that atheists can't be moral, i'm saying they have no justification for being moral, because according to them morality is actually just natural selections work on the mind. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with torturing babies for fun, it's just our natural biology telling us that's wrong because we're naturally selected to protect young, nothing more than that. It's not that it isn't evil , it's that there is no such thing as evil in atheism.
Zachary Powell
This is why it's silly to make an argument against God that says he's evil, because atheists necessarily due to their beliefs cannot even believe in evil. Atheism logically doesn't allow for it.
Owen Jones
I would call you psychopathic
Jack Peterson
It's also why they are so damn hypocritical! They say imply torturing children for 30 minutes is wrong, and then immediately pivot into saying "That is what justice and morality is, a natural product of the mind."
Pick one damnit, either good and evil, right and wrong do truly exist, or they don't. By saying in arguments that it doesn't really matter, but then you go out in life pretending there's morality you live inauthentically to your beliefs, and give others one less reason to take you seriously.
Hudson James
I got a question. If God is not the author of confusion then how do you explain The Bible?
John Murphy
By the way, because you don't seem to get this, i'm not condoning immorality or doing anything evil. I'm saying that if you are an atheist, you don't have any justification for morality, which is completely different.
Andrew Phillips
I'm really not sure exactly what you mean by that. God is the author of confusion? From a biblical point of view, we would be the authors of our own confusion, so this is not a problem at all under a Christian worldview, but probably more just a strawman from the atheist one.
Oliver Robinson
you're pretty wrong about that btw, I don't give a fuck who does the crime, justice is blindfolded. There can be excuses made for those who are insane, but this is outright evil and inexcusable; he get's the death penalty. Although to be fair I probably wouldn't take matters into my own hands realistically.
Alexander Hughes
I mean people have warred and died over the levels of confusion the bible has created between all the various Christian sects. an assuming the premise that God divinely dictated the bible we have a QED on God being the author of confusion.
Ian Gomez
Still don't see that as God creating the "confusion", as that could still all just be men creating their own confusion. Also strange choice of words because confusion isn't necessarily a wrong thing, sometimes is an appropriate response.
Christopher Price
Does God care about what happens to humans? Humans have come up with highly granulated justice systems that take into account multifarious factors involved in an offence and attempt to levy a punishment based on these. Meanwhile God just tosses John Wayne Gacy (and literally Satan) into the same lake of fire as Click Click Xilobe, who, in his ignorance worshiped The Giant Thumb while living in his remote tribal village in Kenya.
We've already figured out how to do this justice thing better than (((Jehova)))
Nicholas Jenkins
It was an offhand remark and you're acting like I was trying to start some kind of debate. If you actually ever read The Bible you would know that it says "god is not the author of confusion" in first corinthians.
David Brooks
If its God's morality how did we figure out that having loli sex slaves is incredibly egregious when its clearly approved of in such passages as Numbers 31:17-18?
Ryder Foster
>actually believes in Big Bazinga
No serious Christian buys that bullshit
Jayden Green
I'm really surprised how this still hasn't gotten through to you. m8. M8. listen very carefully to what i'm about to type.
I'm not talking about whether you or society thinks something is right or wrong, or what God did or didn't do. i'm asking what reasons do you have that explain to me why causing pain is wrong? For what reason is doing things at the expense of others wrong?
Your answer will most likely be, "it just is" or " we have no reason, we just accept that idea axiomatically". In other words, morality is just assumed to be true and is accepted without any real evidence to back it up.
Normally that would be fine and dandy, but atheism is very nihilistic and suggests that we have no reason to be here, and that humans actually don't matter. If other humans don't matter (like how rocks don't matter), then why would "rocks" feeling pain matter? You might intuitively feel this is wrong, but the logic is sound and defeats your brand of morality. In other words, morality has no justification and therefor doesn't exist in the atheistic worldview.
Tyler Gray
some other God of vague description :^)
Jace Diaz
lmao the big bang isn't against Christianity at all. Why couldn't God make the world in a big bang?
Tyler Gomez
I'm sayng I don't even deny the existence of a prime mover but mosaic law is some pretty shabby basis for morality afaic. I may even grant your premise and then promote it as a refutation of biblical inerrancy since many of our moral precepts aren't even addressed in the text.
Jason Davis
so you're not even a fucking atheist? then why the hell have you been arguing? My arguments were against atheism
Christian Nelson
because everything is supposed to come to exist in 7 days, not some hundred gorillion years
Angel Baker
not only that, but you kind of didn't answer my point at all either, you just side stepped it by making some pointless zinger. Face it, with atheism there is no reason for morality.
Ayden Howard
if the sun didn't exist, how could there be days? What i'm getting at is "days" were actually most likely just a metaphor for some amount of time, no idea how long. Each one of those "days" could have been 100 gorillion years.
Jordan Myers
>Why didn't God stop him? because he gave humans free will
>What would God do then? send you both to hell
Hudson Carter
Might is the only right Everything else is just decoration
