How were Iranian peoples like Persians, Medes, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Sogdians, Bactarians, etc... able to understand they were part of the same Aryan/Arya family in terms of ethnic stock, culture, language, customs, and so forth?
Was there some kind of universal shared sign between Iranian peoples that even if they met another member from a different tribe or group of Indo-Iranians they would be able to see them as a fellow Aryan?
Also specific discussion for Iranian/Iranic peoples, cultures, languages, influence, impact, and history pre-Islam because that period fascinates me a lot.
And I guess, who was the greatest ruler for the Achaemenids, Arsacid/Parthians, and Sassanians dynasties?
yeah this interests me as well, I think i remember hearing somewhere that Cyrus was able to communicate with some of these groups.
Bentley Jenkins
relations can last for ages, it's embedded into culture.
Justin Nelson
>How were Iranian peoples like Persians, Medes, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Sogdians, Bactarians, etc... able to understand they were part of the same Aryan/Arya family in terms of ethnic stock, culture, language, customs, and so forth? Spoken tradition most likely.
Also: >I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage.
>By the favor of Ahuramazda these are the countries which I seized outside of Persia; I ruled over them; they bore tribute to me; what was said to them by me, that they did; my law -- that held them firm; Media, Elam, Parthia, Aria, Bactria, Sogdiana, Chorasmia, Drangiana, Arachosia, Sattagydia, Gandara, Sind, Amyrgian Scythians, Scythians with pointed caps, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, Armenia, Cappadocia, Sardis, Ionia, Scythians who are across the sea, Skudra, petasos-wearing Ionians, Libyans, Ethiopians, men of Maka, Carians.
Connor Parker
>How were Iranian peoples like Persians, Medes, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Sogdians, Bactarians, etc... able to understand they were part of the same Aryan/Arya family in terms of ethnic stock, culture, language, customs, and so forth? What makes you think they did?
Ethan Sanchez
Does Zoroastrianism promote the common aryan heritage?
Christian Campbell
Pretty sure at the point of the first Achaemenids empire (or during Cyrus the Greats timeline, as I read about it is a book called Cyrus the Great by Harold Lamb) the "Iranian" peoples knew they were Aryan from legends. During the life of Cyrus, the people most powerful people were Aryans because the natives they invaded long ago were either killed or subjugated. So all Aryans understood that all ethinic groups in a certain area were Aryans if they were the higher class in that culture. And being Aryan was a point to be proud of, so they would all brag about their Aryan ancestors if the stories were part of their cultures.
And Cyrus the great has to be the greatest ruler of them all. Even the greeks, his enemies, confessed that Cyrus was a great ruler. And he turned the persians, a small tribe that no one knew, into one of histories largest empires. He was revolutionary conqueror because he treated the people he invaded way better and fairer than their rulers did. No matter how many casualties their enemies have inflicted on Cyrus, he would allow them to surrender and even employed the previous ruler to join his council. He would treat rebels in the worst way possible with the most horrible torture. but he was still loved by all.
Landon Green
...
Jeremiah Hall
Indians are Aryans too
Austin Butler
They're Dravidian mongrels, not Aryans.
Cooper Morgan
More R1a than Iranians, actually.
Nolan Thompson
They're still brown mongrels.
Elijah Kelly
what did hitler think of the iranians?
Landon Mitchell
>PERSIANS ARE WHIIIIIIIITE!
Michael Peterson
>More R1a than Iranians And also a lot more non Indo-European than IE in them, so what's your point?
Austin Perez
Semito-Elamitic vs Aryo-Dravidian
Henry Taylor
Oral tradition was very important to all of them. Probably moreso than written one until relatively recent times. This is why linguists can identify the Avesta as being thousands of years old while it wasn't written until way more recently.
Robert Murphy
>Semito-Elamitic Elamites literally less genetic impact on Iranians then Arabs did, who had practically none. You shouldn't pull claims out of your ass. Iranians are genetically the same since the Iron Age.
>nearly genocided people who lived largely in isolation from various Iranian tribes >genetic impact and influence
I don't think so.
John Adams
Got any Elamite DNA?
Anyway, Semitic people did have an impact. Modern Iranians are considerably more western shifted compared to Hotu Neolithic.
Jeremiah Thompson
>He would treat rebels in the worst way possible with the most horrible torture. but he was still loved by all. To be fair this was a common trait to monarchies everywhere (I would dare to say states in general). Rebellion was a serious crime.
Josiah Collins
>implying Iranians have any connection to the original Indo-Europeans The only real Aryans left are the Tajiks. Rest are LARPers.
Logan Rodriguez
INDIA SUPERPOWER BY 2020
Levi Barnes
You seem to be the same as Punjabis but generally speaking you're right.
Alexander Hughes
Kalash are just inbred. They are pretty much the same as other poos.
Matthew Taylor
founder effect and long time inbreeding.
Carson Ramirez
Then what peoples contributed the non-IE aspect of Iranian DNA?
Hudson Cooper
I'm not surprised. Most mountain people (Chechens, Pashtuns, Steppe people etc etc) are because they're tribal as fuck.
Parker Gutierrez
>Got any Elamite DNA? Do you?
>Anyway Semitic people did have an impact. Less than Dravidians have on modern Indians by a large scale. >Modern Iranians are considerably more western shifted Modern Iranians have largely direct connections to neolithic hunter-farmers in the Zagros mountains and sedentary Caucasian settlers. Elamites were already reduced to a very small area in the Iranian plateau in Southwest Iran and were on their last legs after massacres from the Neo-Assyrians razed most of their urban centers while Iranics clustered largely segregated from them in the rest of the area.
Iranians have more in common with each other and the people of the Caucasus then then they do with Semites or Indians.
Tajiks are Persians who have more Turkic admixture then anything else in terms of foreign influence on Iranian genes.
I'm not Iranian, and no.
Cooper Rivera
>hunter-farmers in the Zagros mountains What language would they have spoken?
Ryan Brown
>You seem to be the same as Punjabis They aren't. Punjabis and Indians don't cluster that closely with Iranians outside of Balouchis.
Probably something completely unrelated to Dravidians and Elamites.
Angel Johnson
CHG admixture spread to India from Iran about 8000 years ago.
What language family spread with it? Dravidian maybe?
James Cook
>Tajiks are Persians who have more Turkic admixture then anything else in terms of foreign influence on Iranian genes. this meme is only present in tajiks from certain parts of Tajikistan. The majority of tajiks who reside in Afghanistan or in more mountainous regions of Tajikistan dont have any turkic admixture.
Bentley Morgan
Definitely Dravidian. Advanced people have rarely if ever borrowed their language from more primitive locals.
Julian Garcia
I'm pretty sure Tajiks in general show more genetic influence from Turkic peoples than any other Iranian people. They are colonist Persians who settled in Khorasan in largely smaller urban areas with a smaller population outside of their traditional heartlands in Iran itself.
I'm not claiming they are Turkic mongrels, but they have more Turkic in them then Iranian Persians.
Do we even know anything about those peoples outside of their genetics? Elamites were isolated language wise and genetically from Semites, Indo-Europeans, and most other groups in Western and Southern Asia.
Hudson Torres
But if I understand correctly, Elamites lived mostly on the West of the Zagros, yes? But didn't they also speak a Dravidic tongue?
Christopher Bell
>Definitely Dravidian. What proof? Only Balouchis cluster closely with Indians and are the only Iranian people to do so, and they are largely concentrated in the extremes of southeastern Iran, which is far away from the Zagros Mountains and Alborz Mountains where those groups the Indo-Iranics mixed with stemmed and were largely confined to.
Henry Evans
>language wise
Language families stop being identifiable such in about 10000 years.
>and genetically
Nope. Georgians are a good proxy for the CHG admixture in genetic Dravidians aka Pakistanis and Indians.
They are mixed though. Hotu Neolithic also had some of this Australoid admixture.
Bentley Hill
Elamite isn't related to Dravidian languages. They are a completely isolated, unique, and genetically unrelated people to the areas surrounding and cultures in their proximity. Elamites were grouped around Susa, in western Iran but north of the Persian centers of Anshan and Pars.
Georgians and other peoples of the Caucasus are far genetically distance wise by large scale from most Dravidians and Indians.
Elamite is completely unrelated to any known language.
Asher Nguyen
Clustering is irrelevant. You keep assuming South Asians aren't mixed.
Indians are a cline from 90% Australoid(for the lack of a better word) tribals to about 70% CHG admixed people in the Kashmir. CHG was provided by the Dravidian language bringers.
Jordan Peterson
>I'm pretty sure Tajiks in general show more genetic influence from Turkic peoples than any other Iranian people there are 11 million tajiks in afghanistan, the largest concentration in any country, having a turkic look is not common trait at all. Thats why I said yes your statement maybe partly true when talking about tajiks from certain low lying parts of tajikistan, who do have more turkic traits.
>they are colonist Persians who settled in Khorasan in largely smaller urban areas with a smaller population outside of their traditional heartlands in Iran itself. Modern day Tajiks can track their original ancestors back to Iranic peoples like Bactrians of northern Afghanistan and Sogdians who resided in what is now Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Persian colonists came later with time.
Ayden Nguyen
>Semitic people did have an impact. A tiny one. Solely going by haplogroups: J1 is barely an influence, J2 is the strongest among Iranians and has very strongly been concentrated in Iranians and is also common among Balkanite, Caucasus, and Southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Croats, Slovaks, Albanians, etc...). And R1 is already noted.
Iranians then and now with autosomal sequencing are virtually identical to their forebearers from the Iron Age and onwards. They sit closest to peoples in the Caucasus, Anatolians, and Southern Europeans. Only overlap with Semites might be with some shared factors in haplogroups from both being Med peoples.
Ryder Torres
They don't. This is a bullshit made out by Nazis
Carson Rogers
Darius the Great's inscriptions were made up by the Third Reich?
Jeremiah Williams
>Georgians and other peoples of the Caucasus are far genetically distance wise by large scale from most Dravidians and Indians. That's true. Iranians seem much closer to Indians than most Georgians or other Europeans are.
Ryder Jenkins
Zagros farmers were pretty exclusive to central and northern Iran where PIE would mix with them.
Iranians don't cluster closely with Indians. Only Balouchis do due to their proximity to Indian speakers and Dravidians geographically.
>Some Iranian groups in Iran, such as the Gilaki's and Mazandarani's, have paternal genetics (Y-DNA) virtually identical to South Caucasus ethnic groups,[134] while the small Iranian Baloch ethnic group, being the only outliers who have heavy pulls towards South Asia.
Iranians as a whole have more stemming from western Eurasian and CHG mixtures putting them further away from most Indians then they do toward Southern Asians.
Dominic Sullivan
Whatever you want to call it, modern day Iranians are genetically shifted towards the western Middle East compared to Zagros farmers. Likewise, an eastern shift towards Iranians and CHG was present even in ancient Egypt.
Middle East became a melting pot after the Copper Age.
Jordan Sullivan
>But didn't they also speak a Dravidic tongue? This is a meme theory from a time when linguists loved to put all languages in macro-groups. I don't think any serious scholar follows it today.
Hudson Robinson
Darius called himself legendary "Arian" only to build up PR, just as americuck called themselves white country. No one cares how much man had between cheek bone, nose length and eye color until Nazis.
Nathan Harris
The issue isn't denial or claims of that about Iranians being influenced by other ethnic groups and pre-existing pastoralists and sedentary people like Caucasian hunter-gathers, Neolithic farmers, or Zagros settlers, but rather the erroneous belief Iranians are genetically closest to Indians or Semites, when they kind of aren't.
Luke Wood
Nah, PIE had no contact beyond North Caucasus based groups. Very far from Zagros. Some CHG could have arrived to Europe from Central Asia as well. A Q male in Khvalynsk culture was the CHG admixed one.
Ayden Long
Most tajiks aren't persian colonists, just like most persians in Iran aren't, but iranic peoples native to the region who adopted persian with time. They lived in Central Asia way before people even knew turks existed.
Robert Torres
Iranians are close to the non-local or CHG portion of South Asian heritage even in Tamil Nadu.
You just can't seem to understand the gene flow was one way. Iranians don't have enough Australoid in them to cluster with Indians.
Semites have lots of CHG in them too.
Ethan Kelly
You are going kind of full retard, dude.
Sorry I meant Proto-Indo-Iranics, not Proto-Indo-Europeans specifically there.
>just like most persians in Iran aren't Considering language is the strongest indicator of genetics in Iran and modern day Persians are closest to their ancestors, you are wrong. Also Iranians have been all over Central Asia for thousands of year, there was no great re-migration westwards back to Iran.
Easton Gray
Sindhi's and Pashtun's seem to be a bit closer than most. I can't find any other source for Punjabi's or NI tho.
Thomas Phillips
Iranians do not show close relations with Semites regardless of Caucasian admixture in Semite-speakers. Even Iranian Assyrians show closer genetic ties with Levant or Mesopotamian Arabs then they do with Iranians.
Leo Jenkins
>mountain people ([...], steppe people etc etc) ?????
Logan Reed
Different ratios of CHG to Levant and Anatolian Neolithic make North Semites and Iranians/Kurds distinct.
Keep in mind that the original genetic distance from CHG to Anatolia Neolithic was equal to German-Chinese. Much has changed thanks to thousands of years of mixing.
Henry Scott
>Burusho
Their language is thought to have arrived south from Central Asia. Interesting people.
Jackson Martinez
Yes but those two also cluster and are genetically closest to Iranian Balouchis. Its not a coincidence that Balouchis who occupy and are largely settled in southeastern Iranian which borders traditional Indian culture and ethnic centers would show overlap with them.
May Semitic peoples also have significant African influence which is another factor. Which plays into at least partly that Austroliad connection you were talking about earlier.
Caleb Robinson
First off, germanics arent aryan
And for achaemenids, Darius and sassanians, Shapur ii
Jeremiah Bennett
>Armenians, Georgians, Slovaks, >Southern European
Henry Perry
>t. Caribbean Nigger
Isaiah Diaz
>Balkanites >Southern Europeans >and Caucasus What's the problem with the reading comprehension, bro?
James Rogers
>They sit closest to peoples in the Caucasus, Anatolians, and Southern Europeans. Those three all look similar. Most of you look like this.
Jacob Lopez
>you look like this I'm not an Iranian and I've met plenty of light skinned and fair looking Iranians, just as I have of some Greeks looking similar and others being very swarthy, same with most Southeastern Europeans for that matter.
Look at the ex-governor of Tehran, or most ethnic Persians and Iranians from central or Northern Iran and you'll see there's a large gap in skin tone, frequency of lighter hair and eye colors, and what not compared to their kin who live in the hotter and more humid climates of Iran.
So don't cherry pick. I can just as easily find images of swarthy, dark skinned people in the Caucasus and Southern and Southeastern Europe.
Jayden Reyes
>Iranians are genetically the same since the Iron Age. Lol, this meme again
Xavier Ross
Why is this namefag retard in my thread?
Logan Parker
Wrong, im not a nigger
Ethan Gonzalez
Zagros are waaaay too far from the Caucasian Steppe.
Michael Murphy
>Considering language is the strongest indicator of genetics in Iran and modern day Persians are closest to their ancestors, you are wrong I don't know what bizarro story you got in your head after reading my post, but I was just saying that the preeminence of persian in Iran wasn't caused by colonization of persians (as in from Pars) but by different iranic peoples adopting persian as their native language, and that the same happened in Central Asia. I guess you can say this made them persian in modern Iran, and we would agree, but I was never denying this or talking about modern Iran at all. I was providing an example of persian spreading without the need of colonists, since the same happened in Central Asia.
Tyler Hughes
You are that brown guy from iran that believe iran people are related to ancient iranians
There are millions of iran people that show mongoloid features such as high cheekbones and little eyes from turkic/mongol invasion
Alexander even said that iranians are lighter that greeks
Accept it, iran people now are all mixed with caucusus people, arabs, turkic, armenian and mongols
Kevin Morgan
>Those three all look similar. No they don't, not uniquely from Iranians. You can pretty easily find images of Arab looking Italians, Spaniards, especially Portuguese, and Greeks as well as Armenians for example if you want to be selective autistically over those things.
I'm half Iranian (Persian mother from Tehran) and my mom's family have largely lived around Tehran, Esfahan, and Mashhad. I don't want to say a lot of them are light-haired but my mom and her two sisters have hazel eyes and dirty blonde to light brown hair and fair skin. People think my dad whose German-Scottish, is Italian and think he's the Iranian.
Relatively speaking, no one ever said anything about anything "Steppe" related here.
Henry Walker
Are you mentally retarded? There have already been plenty of images and charts showing autosomal and haplogroups of modern Iranians in this thread that disprove your nonsense.
Majority of Iranian Persian-speakers in Iran are not other Iranian people who "adopted" Persian as their language. And your counter-argument is weird because Tajiks directly stem from Persians colonizing Tajikistan and Afghanistan in Khorasan and mixing with Sogdians and Bactarians.
Nolan King
Fuck off sub-human brainlet.
Dylan Foster
>People think my dad whose German-Scottish, is Italian and think he's the Iranian. Explain
Benjamin Morris
>Relatively speaking, no one ever said anything about anything "Steppe" related here. You said PIE. PIE only existed on the Caucasian Steppe.
Carter Edwards
>I'm not an Iranian You're too obsessed with this not to be lol.
>So don't cherry pick. I can just as easily find images of swarthy, dark skinned people in the Caucasus and Southern and Southeastern Europe. I'm not denying that there isn't plenty of fair looking ones but the difference is you look fundamentally more 'A-rab'/Middle Eastern on average than your average Greek or South Eastern European.
I said I meant PII/Proto-Indo-Iranics, not Proto-Indo-Europeans, which was at typo.
Jonathan Bennett
Wait...this guy actually claimed that Iranians are closer to Southern Europeans than Middle Easterners
Elijah Reyes
>autosomal and haplogroups Lol
You are the retarded that believe those tests Ok, mongrel arab
It seems you guys dont read any history
Adrian Martin
>You're too obsessed with this not to be lol. Not an argument and not a rebuttal. Does it baffle your mind that there are people who rather obsess over things being correctly illustrated rather than accepting your bullshit narrative? >I'm not denying that Then why were you in your previous posts? >you look fundamentally more "A-rab" I'm not Iranian as I've said for the third or fourth time now. >Middle Eastern Not an ethnic group. >on average Also wrong. >word press Give a better and actually validated source from academia.
Lucas Butler
Zoroastrianism was founded as a universalizing religion (albeit without any emphasis on converting outsiders), but the Parsis have turned it into an ethnoreligion because muh traditions muh sekrit club.
Tyler Cruz
Fuck off sub-human brainlet.
There is no significant aesthetic or genetic differences between an Iranian today and one in antiquity stemming from the Iron Age.
Joshua Anderson
How do you know? Does iran have a corpse to compare?
Logan Powell
>no rebuttal at all
As its been shown over and over in this thread and threads before it when it comes to the question of who Iranians are closest to, peoples of the Caucasus and Southern Europe are genetically most suitable to Iranians.
Of course it does, you idiot. There are corpses of Scythians, Sarmatians, Persians, Parthians, and other mummies and even those dating back more than 1500 years before the rise of the Medes and Achaemenids.
Xavier Wright
Oh, fair enough.
Michael Perez
>Lol Kill yourself. If there is a capacity and ability to analyze, sequence, and test the DNA and genes of mummified Iranians/Iranics with their current living descendants then how would they not know?
Do you think Iranian scholars and other scientists interested in Iranian genetics and ethnic history have some grand propaganda scheme to push WE WUZ WHITES for the sake of a few posters on internet forums?
Jaxon Mitchell
Since you're such an expert, tell me about the differences between modern Iranians and 4000 BC Iranians.
Logan Rogers
>Scythians, Sarmatians you got any links to genetic tests on these corpses?
Aaron Turner
Southern Europeans aren't close to you. Not even the Turks in Bulgaria. You're much closer to Iraqis.
Matthew Stewart
He's another Iranian with an identity crisis (probably in the West) trying to shill that he's White. It's not that uncommon anymore so no need to be surprised.
LOL at this furious response >Not an ethnic group. You know what I mean no need to nitpick. The commonly assumed Middle-Eastern phenotype. You wouldn't be confused if I asked you about the commonly assumed Northern-European or South-Asian look so no need to play dumb.
Never said there was.
Liam Rodriguez
>Majority of Iranian Persian-speakers in Iran are not other Iranian people who "adopted" Persian as their language. So are you saying that medians, sagartians, arians (from the province of aria), parthians, etc. were all persians from the start and never spoke a different language? Or that they all died and were replaced? I'm sure you know that's false, don't be presentist. They just progressively adopted persian as it was the most prestigious and powerful iranian language, becoming persians with time. Not that this was an extreme change for them or something considering they were all "cousins". The same happened with tajiks. There was no need to send persians to replace sogdians, bactrians, arachosians, etc. which doesn't mean that persians never moved there, but there was no replacement just a change in language and in time identity and culture. Please don't be presentist and use persian like it meant the same in antiquity and today.
Aaron Kelly
I should add that I'm not siding with the island nigger by the way, just in case.
Mason Lewis
>Southern Europeans aren't close to Iranians. Try working on your reading dude. >Turks in Bulgaria What's with this nonsense? >closer to Iraqis Only central Iraqi Arabs are close to Iranians due to that area being largely traditionally a part of the Persian homeland for thousands of years. Said Iraqis cluster very closely with Iranians then they do with even Marshland or Swamp Arabs in Iraq much less the rest of the Near East's Arabic-speakers.
You aren't offering any counter arguments, evidence, or proof. You are just shitposting for the sake of it because your /pol/ nonsense has been called out repeatedly.
"Commonly assumed Middle-Eastern phenotype". This makes no sense because Iranians vary with far more diversity on phenotypes did the average Near Eastern does. So this argument is sunk. >You wouldn't be confused if I asked oyu about the commonly assumed Northern-European or South-Asian look Maybe because South-Asia is primarily the Indian sub-continent and Northern Europeans are largely relegated to single phentoype. Which harks back on my line before this, Iranians differ greatly phenotype wise because Iranian lands (Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan) are diverse geographically and climate wise unlike northern Europe.
Anthony Smith
>Medes Are Persians. >Parthians Are closely related to Persians more than any other Iranians are. Parthia is directly adjacent and next to the province of Pars in Iran. They used even the same written language, adopted the same culture, dress, and beliefs as Persians, and Parthian language only partially diverges from Persian from what we know. >Arians Maybe but again, since the Mede and Achaemenid dynasties, Persians make up the large majority of Iran's population. Even the Samanids, which you Tajiks largely adopted as being your direct forefathers, have more in common with Iranian Persians then Khorsani Persians i.e. modern Tajiks despite Tajiks being practically identical to Persians. Only difference being Tajiks have some shared ancestry with Sogdians and Bactarians.
Landon Sullivan
It's clear you're suffering from a severe mental illness. Southern Europeans have nothing to do with Iranians.
Turks in Bulgaria aren't European so they would be closer to you.
Jacob James
Its practically impossible to give specific information about Indo-Iranics in 4000 BC since Proto-Indo-Iranics wouldn't even arrive to show their unique culture and background until Andronovo culture would come back far later.
I like how all your posts are just insults and nothing else. Care to explain why Iranians, Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Armenians, Georgians, Spaniards, etc...share similar phenotypes and haplogroup clusterings?
Zachary Taylor
>Medes >Are Persians They are but they weren't. I told you to stop being presentist.
>which you Tajiks I'm not tajik and in fact I agree that today tajiks are persians. Not "persians but...", just persians. But this is irrelevant. As I said, don't be presentist.
Jordan Miller
>Even the Samanids, which you Tajiks largely adopted as being your direct forefathers, have more in common with Iranian Persians then Khorsani Persians i.e. modern Tajiks despite Tajiks being practically identical to Persians what is this supposed to imply? the Samanid family apparently originated from Khorasan, so I have no clue as to what your point is.
