/law/ General

Hi Veeky Forums. I am brand spanking new here, because I believe I have recently found my calling: criminal defense lawyer. I've seen a lot in my young adult life so far and I think this could be MY best way to help those who deserve it. With that being said, can we have a somewhat meaningful discussion on American law education procedures? Are you currently enrolled? How goes it? Why do YOU pursue the study of law?

I'm a practicing attorney, and while I don't do criminal law, I did an internship with a crimlaw firm when I was in law school.

Defense law sucks. I would advise you in the strongest possible terms to stay far, far away from it if you possibly can.

Thanks for your reply. I sincerely hope this is one of the better boards unlike where I come from which is /tv/

Please elaborate. Why is that?

Take your pick from the following.


>99% if not more of your clients WILL be guilty. Your job will primarily be looking for mistakes in police procedure so you can quash evidence or get things dismissed altogether.
>Your clients are also likely to be idiots. One of my first tasks was repeating to a particular client that yes, they tap the prison phone lines. Stop calling your drug gang on the prison phones, and then listening to hours and hours of him doing it anyway and also phone-sexing his girlfriend. You should also in general be prepared for them to spout things that they heard from relatives or saw on TV as absolute gospel truth, and get angry with you for telling them that no, the law does not work that way. You will often need to protect them from themselves.
>Speaking of which, a lot of them won't be able to post bail, so enjoy visiting prisons frequently. They're absolutely lovely places
>Especially if you say, represent someone who is on probation and got picked up for a violation of it. At three in the morning. And wants you there right now. Better suit up and get ready to go.
>Even without that, it is not glamorous like TV shows make it look. I did my internship in Chicago, and the average page count of documents that the DA's office sent per case was over 4,000 You will probably need to go over all of it. Criminal cases are also often very protracted, because the state's notion of a speedy trial is "sometime within the next year or two." This also means that if you have a lot of similar cases, and you probably will, the war on drugs being what it is, you have all the fun chance of mixing up important details in similar cases.

>DA's are also disgusting, slimy pieces of shit. You will need to deal with them regularly. Example: Remember that guy with the phone-sexing? He was being charged with a battery of drug possession and distribution charges; and the theory of the case for them went "Well, we had him under observation for two months, and he sold X amount of drugs. But he was active on that corner for 9 months, so you should convict him for four and a half times that." That didn't fly with the jury, and he was only convicted of the amount they actually observed him selling. When it came time for sentencing, since they can include anything they think would be relevant, they went with "We're still sure he sold all the drugs we claimed but couldn't convict him for. Give him the harshest possible sentence your honor."
>They are also incompetent. A different case got delayed for 6 months because they somehow lost the DNA sample they wanted to match to the client, and had to send another one for processing at the lab, and there was a backlog.


Tl;DR, it is just a thoroughly unpleasant experience in just about every sense of the word. You will not be an idealistic crusader defending the innocent from false accusations. At BEST, you will be a check on official mishandling of criminal procedure. Often, you won't even be that. And you deal with unpleasant people, foul odors, and terrible hours.

Not him, but public defenders get paid fuck all and are overworked and can't properly defend clients.

Private side the big money is mostly in getting people off on their 5th DUI and you're basically just an agent for a bribe extraction.

Fuck. Again, I really appreciate your insight, and it goes to show the truth hurts sometimes. I still very much want to at least pursue law overall.

Take a practice LSAT. Are you 99th percentile? If not, become an accountant or something or learn a trade.

user, im sorry to say this, but the great era of civil-rights lawyering is over.

Is there any meaningful difference between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of evidence"? I feel like the human brain is hardwired for Preponderance and going through the trouble of telling jurors to operate on a different level doesn't actually do anything.

>Is there any meaningful difference between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of evidence"?
Yes.

> I feel like the human brain is hardwired for Preponderance and going through the trouble of telling jurors to operate on a different level doesn't actually do anything.
Don't form an opinion on something you are not educated in and not trained for.

I feel like, at the end of the day, jurors are going to vote for whichever scenario that they personally consider to be most likely, regardless of "reasonable doubt."

Jurors are given strict and specific instructions about the difference between the burdens of proof. If there was such little faith in ordinary people's ability to understand instructions, use reason, and uphold the role they were tasked for, the jury system would have collapsed long ago.

Given the level of difference in conviction rates for criminal offenses and the finding of liability of civil cases on the same fact patterns would seem to suggest that jurors can indeed find the distinction.

Also, remember that if you're relying on an affirmative defense you (usually, it gets messy and depends on the state) aren't really dealing with that beyond a reasonable doubt.

Something like 95% of criminal cases end in a guilty plea.

So what you'll be spending most of your time doing is convincing a client who thought you'd get him off of the charge that he is going to go to jail no matter what, and getting him to agree to admit to his guilt.

Not exactly Atticus Finch stuff.

The average american sees no reason to use reason and logic or the burden of proof. Look how religious they are they hate using their brains.

OBSESSED

poor guy , women were wrongly accusing men of rape even then

>I believe I have recently found my calling: criminal defense lawyer. I've seen a lot in my young adult life so far and I think this could be MY best way to help those who deserve it.

Take step back user, this is like saying X country is the best in the world based on seeing a holiday tvshow or a travel novel.

You wont have any idea of it until you actually experience it first hand.

Im not an American but to add onto

from another commonlaw country

>working 60+ hour work weeks is the norm and working more that wont really be appreciated - also dont be surprised if you need to work weekends or past 10pm regularly .
>Most clients of yours will have very little money which means despite working very long hours you will earn a lot less money than other professionals
>Clients hate paying lawyers especially if you loose (and even if they win they feel like they shouldn't pay for justice) which means you will have to chase debts.
>Courts are autistic when it comes to accepting documents and you will have to devote a lot of time to learning arbitrary rules.
>Clients will often not turn up to court on time not only making you look stupid but also breaking bail.
>Clients often change lawyers which means having to try and figure out another persons system
>Its a profession with one of the highest rates of mental illness and substance abuse.
>A lot of your clients will be genuinely bad people who should be locked up or punished severely
>The only way to make decent money is to start your own firm or go into private practice - however the profession as very strict accounting procedures and ethical obligations that make it very very difficult to do.

I was a Public Defender in a Western State for over 6 years, handled about 3000 cases in that time and over 60 jury trials...what would you like to know?

>can we have a somewhat meaningful discussion on American law education procedures?
sure

>Are you currently enrolled?
no

>How goes it?
meh....I've had an interesting career and done important stuff but the pay isn't all that great and I had to go deeply into debt to get here.

>Why do YOU pursue the study of law?
to make money and do important stuff....1 out of 2 aint bad.

Not OP but how accurate are
When you say the pay isnt that great what do you mean? how much were you earning?

>Not OP but how accurate are

bit edgy but sorta accurate. Maybe 75% of my clients were very damaged people, lots of mental illness, lots of addiction, some malicious SOBs...often a mix of all three. 25% were folks just down on their luck. It varied a bit between jurisdictions. (I rep'd a lot of veterans)

DAs vary a lot too...some of the worst humans I've ever met were DAs, some of the best too. Same goes for Judges.

I "won" a lot, which felt good...but the stress and general rolling in the sewer of society burned me out after awhile.

>When you say the pay isnt that great what do you mean? how much were you earning?

I started at about 48k....which didn't leave much after rent and student loans payments...after 6 years I was making 68k.

thanks, did law school prepare you much for it ?

yeah...I interned a lot in law school so came out pretty much ready to go, although I really improved that first 2 years.

OP here...you know the real gist of this is of course hear from real students/practitioners and that's fantastic, as long as truth be told. I guess I still had this optimistic outlook that I could do something about people that mistakes. I do NOT believe all criminals are beyond redemption, especially in the case of American misdemeanors. There really are some people that deserve a second chance. American law enforcement and judicial proceedings are so fucked I just want to be so badly a cog to make it better

was that something the school helped you with or was it done on your own steam?

Im curious as to how practical lectures and classes actually are

>was that something the school helped you with or was it done on your own steam?

both....my school definitely encourage internships.

the lectures were sorta practical, I got really good at reading law which is the key to the job.

Men used to have the capacity to be great. To fight for what was right, and to protect the innocent. And now, I can't help but seeing it all as some cash cow. The police abuse their authority to arrest people that make mistakes and exploit them for legal fees and the industrial prison complex. I hate it. How do these people sleep at night?

American incarceration as a profitable business...its so fucked up

walking an innocent client facing prison is a good feeling....

it's pretty much always been that way...

Complex societies have a tendency towards escalating levels of rent seeking.

Ultimately, the only thing you can do is try to keep it under control and prevent the decay from reaching critical mass for as long as possible.

I'm studying to get a good score on the national test that lets me get into a great university for law. (not us)

It's easy to get scared reading about peoples thoughts about law. I feel for me to become the man i want to be, i'm in need of a degree that will force me to become a more well-read, well rounded person, and will let me join "the real world".

I wont stop trying to get into lawschool and i hope you don't either.
I relate to your feeling of wanting to be a cog, to feel like if the chance comes you can actually stand up for what you think is right.

In Sweden with great grades you will get to start working at a courthouse right after graduation, so thats a comforting thought.
If you study hard aswell, im sure we both will have an interesting future user.

Best of luck to you all, we're all gonna make it.

I'm a prosecutor. Worked in America's busiest criminal court system. Moved to another state/county, still a big city but much better funded, less work.

My practical advice is to study for the LSAT and get into the highest ranked school possible. If you still have your heart set on criminal defense work, carefully select the place you want to work and do the required networking. Make some friends who are older than you and practice criminal law, see if you want that sort of life.

>But he was active on that corner for 9 months, so you should convict him for four and a half times that.
Fucking based.