People always like to talk about how bad of a decision this was, but realistically, what other options were there?

He just had to destroy the soviet government and Stalin stayed in Moscow. If he allied with Ukrainians instead of killing them he might've had a chance.

This triggers the stormfag and the commie

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks

R-rose

It was hardly "free gibs", the Soviets were constantly bargaining tough by stalling negotiations, setting very high prices, and not fulfilling their side of the deal. They knew Germany was in a tight spot and would play along for the goods they needed.
This probably contributed to the decision to invade; with Hitler seeing that a major source of his grain, oil, and nonferrous metals could just walk away and take their business somewhere else if he didn't like their terms.

This meme has to end already. He did ally with the Ukrainians. Most of auxiliary units on the Eastern front were Ukrainians. Most of police force and anti-partisan units were composed of Ukrainians.
>b-b-but I mean creating independent Ukrainians government!
He would've done that if Bandera wasn't a fucking retard who wanted to establish neutrality.

>country whose population and industrial base dwarfs your own,
Russia's industrial base was weaker than Germany's, and its population edge was around 1.5 : 1 to greater Germany. Not exactly dwarfing Germany.

Wait until Britain's defeat and the end of the opperations in North Africa before going in? Wasn't fighting on two fronts every German commander's (plus Hitler's) worst nightmare before the war started?

It means Moscow and Berlin get nuked instead of just Berlin in this crazy new timeline.

Yeah, but
(1) The UK didn't seem to somehow be defeated soon (they won the Battle of Britain and still had the Empire + the Royal Navy + the support of the US)
(2) Hitler (and some of his generals, I assume) simply massively underestimated the Soviet Union, they thought Barbarossa would only take months until the Soviets would give up.

None. Hitler (I should say Goering, for he made the fuck up and he cursed himself much for it when the Soviets began to make serious gains in the east) major flaw was setting out on the war without any long range bombers nor any long range fighters to escort them that could deep penetrate Soviet industry. Coupled with the fact that the bombers he had left had the tendency to catch fire mid-flight like the He-177 and there was basically nothing he could do the moment the Soviets started mass shipping their industry behind the Urals, save maybe getting Japan to attack the Soviets from the East. Instead, they attacked America which meant Hitler had to deal with bee stings on his west and his east now. Without any effective strategic bombing doctrine, whilst ALL of his enemies had one. There was no chance.

They huffed too much of their own fumes, and instead of hunkering down after the defeat over Britain to focus on, you know, defeating or at least neutralizing Britain, set off on another vainglorious war of conquest because Hitler's book told them to.

A defeated Britain would have meant no US intervention, meaning no front in Western Europe. The empire would have fought with itself, much like the French colonies.
They didn't put all of the means avialable to defeating Britain, being high on their suprise win in France, Hitler thought that they could defeat britain using only planes.
No, I really think that mainland Britain out of the equation would have made a world of difference on the eastern front

The USSR could
- invade and occupy Iran, possibly the entire Middle East (like they did together with the UK)
- massively support the Japanese war effort in China
- possibly threaten India and the Suez canal
- provide both Germany and Japan with vital resources (mainly oil, but much more as well)
- produce large amounts of equipment
- make Germany focus on aircraft production instead of land equipment (because there's no Eastern front)
- use millions of men that don't die on the Eastern front
- support Germany and Italy if there should ever be manpower shortages in Europe (unlikely, because there would be no Eastern front)

I don't see how the Allies would be able to magically fly through the Eurasian continent unhindered while it's completely held by the Axis.

Of course a defeated Britain would have put the Axis in a far better position, but it really wasn't realistic at any point in OTL. The RN, RAF and the support of the entire Empire plus America (which started before the official US entry to the war) was just too much for the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine to defeat in 1940/41. Once the Eastern Front started and the US got officially involved, it was beyond delusional to consider an invasion of the UK.

Just wait until you can get rid of these British guys so the Americans have no reason to fight Germany, Don't declare war on America. Finish one front and start another later, live past 1945.

Oh and tell Japan to fuck off when they bomb pearl harbor.

Seriously they could probably have done a better job if they had the rest of the continent properly subdued.

Hell maybe go south first instead for that delicious manpower. Maybe take Italy so they can stop cocking everything up and needing you anyways.

Maybe convince Franco to join in first?

Maybe prepare better?

Maybe expect the Russians to do what they always fucking do?

Maybe let the Japanese tie up their war with china to fight a better two front war?

Even if Stalin was planning an attack or would have attacked eventually why not wait until your tech is a bit better? How about those neat rockets and nukes you're working on?

Why was Hitler so damn autistic about his living space.

certainly not attack while you have anglos breathing down your neck

youll have to give in moldova (bessarabia) for sure, which means you lose Romania as an ally and need to occupy it but its isolated and have enough enemies around it so youd be OK

need to put your retarded idea of ostlands germanized too and start building a a fortification line between the baltic and black sea

america will be involved the moment weebs start expanding on the pacific, so you have a long war ahead which is mostly fought on the seas

I don't understand why they didn't go all out in invading Britain. Sure there would be losses, but it would have been worth it.

This muuuuuh british navy and battle of britain feels like a myth.

>Most of auxiliary units on the Eastern front were Ukrainians. Most of police force and anti-partisan units were composed of Ukrainians.
So? Those units were all recruited locally and the Ukrainians were the biggest nationality and it's not like they made a meaningful contribution to the war.

>He would've done that if Bandera wasn't a fucking retard who wanted to establish neutrality.
>On 30 June 1941, with the arrival of Nazi troops in Ukraine, Bandera and the OUN-B declared an independent Ukrainian State. Some of the published proclamations of the formation of this state say that it would "work closely with the National-Socialist Greater Germany, under the leadership of its leader Adolf Hitler which is forming a new order in Europe and the world and is helping the Ukrainian People to free itself from Moscovite occupation." – as stated in the text of the "Act of Proclamation of Ukrainian Statehood".
Get your facts straight.

Hitler forgot the golden rule of winning a world war. Have more fucking major powers on your side. He had what? Italy? Japan?

Make a damn ally!

This is like some kind of narrow-minded history-channel shtick, here are a few problems for you to consider

-where does Germany get the extra aircraft to escort these bombers?
-where does Germany get the extra oil for these long trips?
-what will they have to cut back on to research, design, test and produce these expensive planes?
-how will on Earth will Germany consistently manage to fly to the Urals and back? It's 1600km away assuming you fly from the frontlines!

Same kind of vein as those people who say 'Germany should have just produced 50,000 Stugs'.

>Once the Eastern Front started and the US got officially involved, it was beyond delusional to consider an invasion of the UK.
Which is why, as desperate at it sounds, they needed to defeat the UK before that, and it might not be as unrealistic as you claim.
(1)The lend-lease act (the first real wave of American help) came in march 1941. At the time Britain had a week of suplies to go with.

(2) The battle of Britain was never meant for a full scale invasion. If economic targets like convey (attacked out of lack of clear objectives) were left intact to fully focus on a detailed ground support plan (like in France) the issue may have been very different

(3) Talking about the battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe had more planes than the allies by that point. I am not even sure they used the captured french ones.

There is literally zero percent chance of defeating Britain unless they agree to peace following the Battle of Britain. None, zero. You could try 5,000 times with a different strategy each time and it wouldn't happen.

Battle of France*

The RAF won the BoB despite being outnumbered in aircraft. The UK's fighter production was greater than Germany's. The Luftwaffe couldn't effectively attack targets anywhere but in southern England due to limited fighter range. The shipping routes from the Empire and the US to the UK were untouchable for the Luftwaffe. The Homefleet was massively superior to the Kriegsmarine. The Kriegsmarine had no means of conducting a somewhat adequate invasion.

It was never really realistic. It might have been with the USSR in the Axis and more time to prepare, but it wasn't in reality.

Hitler just successfully conquered almost the whole Europe crushing superpowers of those days France and Britain. Stalin just hardly could win war with tiny Finland. Assuming that Stalin was going to attack Hitler is just a sheer stupidity, it is the same as assuming Putin would attack USA now.

While I would argue more, it seems like Hitler thought the same, but did consider the option "if all else fails" and under the condition of total air and sea domination. I did not know about operation Sea Lion until now.

But I still think that there was no other option. Hitler is known for playing double or nothing at all times, it may not have been viable, but then again neither was the Manstein Plan, and yet it worked.

Just, bunker down and consolidate. You control all the good parts of Europe, make sure they're working effectively. There is absolutely no reason why the USSR should be able to outproduce you.

Win the Africa war. Take the Middle East. Stalin is less likely to start shit if you're in range of his oil fields.

So you're saying Sealion should have been tried without air or naval superiority because the Invasion of France also worked "against all odds"?
Let me tell you that's a shit idea, it would have been a massacre.

This, maybe. Try to convince Spain and Turkey to join the Axis, treat the conquered territories better, and try to force the British out of ME and NA. Wouldn't be easy though, that's for sure.

Also it would be vital to maintain absolute air supremacy over mainland Europe, bombers should have no chance to strike your industry.

No, the Manstein plan was viable; Sea Lion was not. Not under any conditions under than half the RN suddenly sinking.

The Germans had already designed these long range bombers pre-war, but decided they were not needed and converted them into transports LOL. Later development into long range bomber culimnated in the Heinkel He 177 introduced in 1942 (too late to change anything), and the infamous "Amerika bomber" that never left the design stage and produced dozens of prototype variants.

Germany already had both infantry and armor supremacy on land against the British. Defeating the British in the Middle-east, instead of three expeditionary divisions they could have fielded whole armies without the eastern front being a pressing reality, and could be transported by the Italian navy. Also with regards to the naval supremacy of Britain, they only had to produce more subs, the Wolfpack's had a great sucess rate against British destroyers and convoys.

The Manstein plan relied on perfect opperational success in an unforseenly short amount of time, on the condition that French troops would fall for the trap, wouldn't send air recon in the Ardennes and wouldn't be fast enough to get out of the trap in time, all while using only 4 to 6 roads to do complex maneuvers with 400km of armored vehicles in really unfavorable terrain.
I wouldn't exactly call that viable, and that's exactly why it was so efficient

>Let me tell you that's a shit idea, it would have been a massacre
Maybe, and precisely because that would have been seen as a suicidal move it would have really surprised the British. That's what made the assault in the Ardennes work so well, and the germans realized that.
Not viable on the long run I give you that, but as a shock or blitz opperation, I wonder...

>Maybe, and precisely because that would have been seen as a suicidal move it would have really surprised the British. That's what made the assault in the Ardennes work so well, and the germans realized that.
>Not viable on the long run I give you that, but as a shock or blitz opperation, I wonder...
"No."
It might have surprised the Brits that even Hitler would send so many of his men into certain death, but they would have found out immediately, they had enough airplanes and ships to completely massacre an "invasion fleet" that didn't even have proper landing vessels. It would have certainly not worked, at least not without years of preparation.

I stand corrected then, it could not have been viable
>but they would have found out immediately
Now that's something I am curious about, did they have infantry outposts near their naval border? Did they have air recon over the channel? Did they have naval recon perhaps?
>they had enough ships to completely massacre an "invasion fleet"
How were they positioned in summer 1940? Could they have successfully destroyed all German hopes before they placed their mines?

Can't answer your questions really since I don't know that much about it but I do know that the UK had proper radar warning systems, a capable and numerically strong air force and an experienced and well-equipped navy that outnumbered the German Kriegsmarine by a huge margin.

pick one (or two at most) of the 3 objectives and then kill hitler so he doesn't fuck everything up

The main problem is that G*rmany had little/no transport craft to land soldiers.

meanwhile...
In the beginning of World War II the Royal Navy was still the strongest navy in the world,[1] with the largest number of warships built and with naval bases across the globe.[2] Totalling over 15 battleships and battlecruisers, 7 aircraft carriers, 66 cruisers, 164 destroyers and 66 submarines.[2]

For anyone still tiddling on about Sealion

philmasters.org.uk/SF/Sealion.htm

You two jokers are missing the fact, that one guy pretty much alone sabotaged Operation Sea Lion
by botching any and all spy operations into Britain. The guy quite intentionally sent complete retards as spies to England and they were all caught and shot.
Meanwhile, most if not all of the british, american and soviet spies in the Reich were left unharmed or were allowed to live under the guise of double Agents.
I mean, like hell. Hitler had the whole Abwehr sabotagin his war effort from the get go and only demolished everything in 1944 when even blind men like Himmler told him to.

I once met an old lady who claimed to have been Canaris goddaughter. Apparently she was spared from the KZ because Canaris intervened, even though her dad was involved with the Czech resistance and the Heydrich plot.

Wait until he finished his war on the British and then commit to it

Yes, good additional information, but I'm certain Sealion wouldn't have been feasible even with the best intelligence. The balance of power in and over the English channel was just far too off for a German invasion to have a realistic chance of success.

>they were all caught and shot
No they weren't, they were recruited as double agents.

Christ you people are literally retarded, stalin was actually preparing for an invasion and hitler simply beat him to the punch, it seems crazy to us but had they allowed the soviets to fully mobilize their military and attack germany wouldnt stand a chance

Why the hell would he open up a second front against the biggest military in the world?

Ill post bits from the article but im getting ready for work

lewrockwell.com/2014/04/bionic-mosquito/stalins-grand-design-to-start-ww-ii/

Yeah, he's disputing plans that already existed before the war. Everyone knew Germany was going to war the USSR, it was obvious. That's why OP's question is retarded.

>start a war with a country you cannot bomb
>this is somehow a smart idea

>At the time Britain had a week of suplies to go with.
This is not even remotely true. First of all, week of what supplies? POL? Food? Raw materials? Second, the only thing that was ever really in short supply in Britain in 1941 or at any time in WW2 were imported foods like chocolate and lemon.

>Defeating the British in the Middle-east, instead of three expeditionary divisions they could have fielded whole armies without the eastern front being a pressing reality
Not happening unless you magically transport railroads and extra port capacity in, and have many times more fuel available for the Italian navy.

Wait, starve out the BitBongs into subission
Tell your slanted eyed """"""friends""""""" to not kick the rich kid on the block
Then tackle Russia with everything you've got

>People always like to talk about how bad of a decision this was

Tbh the real bad decisions had already been made at that point. There isn't any realistic scenario that ends well for Germany after invading Poland.

Behold; the might of the Kreigsmarine invasion fleet

>~~Baka, Hitler-san! Its not like I liked you or anything!

>Red-Black alliance.
Only in a perfect world.

Sadly, in reality, Stalin was already trying to economically blackmail Hitler. He annexed Besarabia which was where Hitler got all his oil from, not to mention kept demanding more and more, like access to the Bosphorous and encroachment on Germany's spehre of influence.
Then there was the whole staging the coup in Yugoslavia thing.

Basically Stalin was doing little douchebag things here and there to piss Hitler off, and Hitler responded by going full autist spastic mode.

>He annexed Besarabia which was where Hitler got all his oil from
I am pretty sure most of the romanian oil came from Wallachia and Hitler approved of the annexation through the pact

It could have worked if Hitler had avoided war with the West, which was really not that hard to do: Simply honor the Treaty of Munich. Hitler's rapacity and dishonesty in breaking this treaty caused the West to issue its blanket guarantee of Poland, without it it's likely they would have turned a blind eye to Germany annexing the Polish Corridor and sphereing Poland, and without Lend Lease and the West tying up a portion of the Germany military, they could have beaten the USSR.

Nazism whole purpose was the destruction of Gommunism and the annexing of the World Island for the Aryan Race, there was zero possibility of lasting peace with the USSR, you might as well say "well if they'd just accepted the Jews and used them in science instead of trying to exterminate them, they'd have been fine". It's true, but it's inconceivable.

After he defeated france, he could have just kept intensifying bombing of England further and further, putting pressure on their industry so they can't rearm, while stiffening up his border defences in the east.

No way Stalin would have risked an open attack before 1943.

Anyway I think if he had just let the situation stay like that for a while, he could have reached a reasonable armistice with Britain where they basically return to the status quo antebellum, and he turns the Generalgouvernment into an independent Polish state.

>he could have just kept intensifying bombing of England further and further,
His airforce was inferior in the long term to Britain's, and Britain's much more massive bombing program couldn't stop either German gearing up nor force it to surrender. See pic related. There is no way in hell a bunch of light bombers and converted ground attack craft can inflict significant damage on Britian through airpower alone.

>Anyway I think if he had just let the situation stay like that for a while, he could have reached a reasonable armistice with Britain where they basically return to the status quo antebellum, and he turns the Generalgouvernment into an independent Polish state.
Britain has no reason to trust any promise Hitler makes. They have an overall larger economy, and will eventually pull their heads out of their asses tactically and start evicting you from North Africa. America is likely to come into the war at some point, at which point the CW has a massive advantage. There is literally every incentive for them to wait.

Hell, even the HoI event is called "Claim Bessarabia with German blessing"

That's a really bad diagram if you look at it for a minute