What if Poland joined axis instead of trusting western allies and ww2 started with axis invasion of soviet union...

Hitler was too autistic for something like this, pretty sure he'd backstab Poland no matter what.

Germany would definitely demand the old territories of the 2nd Empire back, so that'd spark tensions.

As for the war scenario, considering the state the Red Army was in during Barbarossa and the fact that it could only really conduct proper offensive operations with the support of the US and UK I think the help of Poland in 1941 might have been enough to turn the tide.

As opposed to Romania, Poland actually had proper equipment, though. Romanians at the flank of Stalingrad didn't even have AT guns most of the time.

Japan

But alliance with Poland would change everything including Hitler's plans. I think Hossbach Memorandum mentions that he wanted to attack France first then USSR. If Stalin decided to stay in Moscow just like in our "timeline" the Soviet government might've been defeated and there were many groups that would be fitting for a provisionary puppet government.
Poles might've been treated like Slovaks, Croatians or Hungarians. Maybe. After all Hitler's plans and opinions on people was changing all the time with the worst genocide programs starting when the German offensive stopped on both fronts.

>proper equipment
Do you mean the obsolete light tanks, or cavalrymen with lances? The both would not do shit against Soviet T-34s.

>or cavalrymen with lances?

Jesus fucking Christ this board

This
read more

Fucking HUUUUNS

Polish Army had too much Cavalrymen and that's a fact. Much more than Wehrmacht or Red Army.

Why do you sperg out at Germany directly?
But they also had proper tanks for the time (7TP) and proper aircraft (PZL.37). In comparison to other countries at the time they were armed well, just not as well as say Germany, France, Britain or the SU.

And the story with the Polish cavalry charging German tanks is propaganda.

Calvary during that time was still more effective than general infantry in the open field, but got trounced by motorized infantry and armor due to having a lower defensive potential.

If you don't have that many resources, the best thing you can do is to maximize your effectiveness. The decision to continue to field cavalry is what won them the Polish-Soviet war.

then poland wouldn't have been commiefied and eternally buttblasted

as well as the world being a better place

Harry Turtledove already did this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_That_Came_Early

Poland as an Axis member means the USSR really is fucked. No war with Poland means no war with the West, and while Polish forces were weak as fuck they were numerous and could have been used for anti-partizan work and for garrisoning occupied territories. Polish territorial claims (Belarus and Western Ukraine) are not valuable land for Germany either, so no real conflict even there. Not forging an alliance with the Poles despite his love of Piludski is Hitler's single biggest failure (aside from that mustache, obviously).

Seeing as Russia and Germany both wanted to control the Polish funnel which is the easily-defensible chokepoint between the Baltics and the Carpathians where the North European Plain is narrowest, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where Poland would escape destruction.

Of course, in addition to that, there is also the concept of Lebensraum and the Drang Nach Osten which were major obsessions of the Nazis.

>Okay, Germany has been taken over by this guy who has written that Slavic people are subhuman and deserve to be exterminated to make room for German colonies in eastern Europe.

>Therefore, we Slavic Poles should ally with Germany!

Whos the grill?

That's really not how it looked in 1939.

>cavalrymen with lances

The lance was only optional for Polish cavalrymen, cavalry at the time were dragoons so to speak, infantry that rides to battle but fights on foot.

Although I heard that the japs actually tried a cavalry charge at one point, but don't quote me on that

that didn't stop them from declaring bulgarians, slovakians or croatians honorary aryans

But wasn't that after they started loosing?

It has looked like that since Russia exists as a country.

youtu.be/W6LIhNgsQoc

Germans could ally with anyone when it was convenient to them. The fact that you can bring up Hitler's quotes about Poland that are both praising and critical shows that you can't think too much about them but focus on German interests. Hitler could at any time decide that Slovaks or Poles were aryan enough. His scientists would conjure some theories as they always did. Nothing was set in stone. It was all politics.

the state of fucking Veeky Forums

bunch of uneducated pleb

Yeah, Hitler's Aryanism was denounced at the time by British and American academics that studied race for being unscientific. It was used politically, not as a real concept. He started claiming Japanese were partially aryan.

He's some youtube trap.

Hitler made it clear he wishes to genocide them.

And also made it clear he wants them as his allies.
Don't take every statement as a fact especially when they change all the time.

They weren't really allies with Japan, it was more of an NAP

post source that states this before he actually invaded them

Mein Kampf fucktard

Not him but he doesn't mention genociding Poles at all in Mein Kampf. Have you actually read it?

Mein Kampf says that Germany must expand eastward. Pop quiz. Which country is directly east of Germany in 1936?

>annexing other countries means you have to genocide everyone who lives there
You are a retard. Straight up brainlet.

The whole point of annexing these countries is to provide empty lands for Germans to breed in.

You're assuming too much, stop assuming. Nowhere does it say anything like that.
Furthermore: Poland wasn't supposed to be the "lebensraum" to be settled with Germans. That was USSR, and especially southern Ukraine + Crimea.

Poland is directly between Germany and the USSR. Germany can't annex any part of Russia without subjugating Poland first.

Yeah, not everyone. Not everyone.

>while Polish forces were weak as fuck
But Polish army was quite good and was one of the strongest armies in world. The problem is, it means nothing, when you are surprise attacked by even stronger guys with indefensible borders.

Hitler wanted Poland to be in his sphere of influence not necessarily by invasion. Later when he was getting bold and angry at Poles he decided to resettle most of the population further east.
Historians don't say that Poland would be off better as Hitler's ally because he'd win. Poland needed Hitler to destroy Stalin and then lose himself.

>annexing means genocide
You already got BTFO about that claim once, doing a repeat are we?

>You can't be concerned about a foreign dictator invading your country unless he explicitly says that he's going to commit genocide

>STOP ASSUMING THEY WANTED EMPTY LAND FOR GERMANS, IT DOESN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE.
>FURTHERMORE, THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO DO EXACTLY THAT TO POLAND, ONLY THE COUNTRIES EAST OF POLAND. GET IT STRAIGHT.

Maybe not in Mein Kampf, but in the Zweites Buch:
>The National Socialist Movement, on the contrary, will always let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of our Folk. It knows no Germanising or Teutonising, as in the case of the national bourgeoisie, but only the spread of its own Folk. It will never see in the subjugated, so called Germanised, Czechs or Poles a national, let alone Folkish, strengthening, but only the racial weakening of our Folk.
chapter 5
>The Folkish State, conversely, must under no conditions annex Poles with the intention of wanting to make Germans out of them some day. On the contrary, it must muster the determination either to seal off these alien racial elements, so that the blood of its own Folk will not be corrupted again, or it must without further ado remove them and hand over the vacated territory to its own National Comrades.
chapter 6

>STOP ASSUMING THEY WANTED EMPTY LAND FOR GERMANS
I didn't say that. I said stop assuming they wanted them to genocide. Also nowhere does it say "empty land", it says land.

>Zweites Buch
>legitimate
What's next, Table Talk?

>everything i disagree with is fake

Hitler had said enough inflammatory and dehumanizing things about Slavs that it was perfectly justifiable to see him as somebody who was potentially genocidal. Even if he wasn't always upfront about it, an observer in 1936 would be justified in considering it as a possible outcome of an invasion. And aside from that, where is it written that you can't take precautions against invasion unless the other side explicitly says they'll commit genocide?

I'm not going to treat shit that was literally never published until Hitler's death as something legitimate. There's so many forgeries when it comes to nazi Germany it's not even funny, Hitler's Last Will and Goebbels' diaries are another example.

I mean, you're not wrong about those, you're just being really pedantic. I know misinformation is wrong even about the Nazis but you're so fucking picky about when and where exactly they murdered millions, why, and how many millions. Like, okay, congratulations.

>Hitler had said enough inflammatory and dehumanizing things about Slavs
Try providing sources for those claims that aren't Table Talk, Second Book or some other SUPER SEKRIT MEMOIR MIRACULOUSLY DISCOVERED AFTER HITLER DIED. Focus on public speeches and verified accounts.

>That's really not how it looked in 1939.

That's fucking EXACTLY how it looked.

This board...

>As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp! - Adolf Hitler

Whenever the Wehrmacht came across Poles who appeared to have "German" features (blue eyes, blond hair, etc) they would send them back to Germany to undergo a selection process. Those who succeeded were accepted as being Germans who'd somehow ended up in Poland. Those who failed, well........

>post quotes that aren't from Table Talk
>posts a quote from Table Talk
Brainlets, not even once.

War between Poland and Germany
wasn't
an only
option

let's suppose we have nothing hitler ever said
what about literally everything that happened

i mean it's fucking okay if you don't care about the untermensch but this half assed dance is pathetic

Let's assume everything in the Table Talk is 100% verifiably authentic:
>Poles should've been hostile to Germany prior to 1939 because Hitler said mean things about Slavs in a private meeting in 1941 which wasn't published until long after his death
I guess this "argument" makes sense if you're a total retard.

piss on the fucking books, what about what actually transpired?

What actually transpired before 1939?

I still don't see what your point is. Even if there was literally no evidence of Hitler wanting to commit genocide, Poles would still be justified in being concerned about their German neighbor expressing desires to "expand eastward" while at the same time noticing that military spending in Germany has suddenly quadrupled. I think any country which values its own independence would be quite alert in that situation.

setting up the really awkward stuff

i mean we're not gonna get anywhere if you just ignore what followed or quietly assume it was justified by poland being shifty or something
we can argue all day about what hitler said or didn't say but we already know the outcome

So basically you're conceding.

home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~mkinnear/Hossbach memorandum.pdf

Reading this shit should be mandatory. Basically he considered a lot of options and would've prefered Poland not to be his enemy, which is why he was so mad after he learned about their agreement with the British in April 1939.

conceding what? i'm not saying they put their plans into motion without some kind of excuse, i'm saying it had nothing to do with their real plans that went way beyond some conflict with poland and ultimately made them look justified.

>What actually transpired before 1939?

1. Hitler said that Slavs were inferior subhumans and that Germany must expand eastward (Mein Kampf, 1925).
2. Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany, bans opposition parties (1933).
3. Night of the Long Knives - Hitler consolidates his power. (1934).
4. Nazi Germany lays down two new battleships, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (1935).
5. German army is greatly expanded; military budget further increased (1936).
6. Hitler breaks the Munich Agreement by annexing Czechoslovakia (1937).
7. Germany annexes Austria and the Sudetenland (1938).
8. Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; Hitler agrees to divide eastern Europe with the USSR (1939).

That's a pretty good summary, I'd say.

basically you're conceding that you either think what poland did remotely justified even extreme lowballing of the horror of what germany did or that it was all made up they were just partisans with cholera man come on hitler was a cool guy man come one

just reminding you of this, it's okay.

Hitler's views weren't a monolith which is why there's tons of pictures of him saying contradictory things as if those were his real faces. The only certainties were that he wanted another war with France and that he wanted to destroy Soviet government. The circumstances of WWII lead to the vision of lebensraum as we know it but before that what it looked like was less defined.

Poland didn't have the ability to read Hitler's mind. They didn't know exactly what he wanted to do. But they did know that it involved expanding eastward, and they knew that Poland was directly east of Germany. They also knew that suddenly German military spending was rapidly increasing. And they also knew that Hitler had an extremely low opinion of Slavic peoples in general.

After 1935 it was all over. Pilsudski was the most respected man in the region and even Hitler admired him, probably because of his past in the Austrian army and as the one who defeated the Bolsheviks. After his death the leadership fell to the less talented generation. But even if they wanted a treaty, the public would never forgive them for it and they really cared about their opinion.