Something I don't get about Hitler-lovers

Even if you think everything he did was morally righteous, even if you don't think the Holocaust happened or whatever, the guy was a bad leader.
Don't get me wrong, he was good at the seizing power part. Great orator, good at being the psychological locus of a national emotion.
But he was a shit statesman. Literally your number one fucking job is to not start wars that you can't win.
Failed.
The motherfucker even still had a chance to call it off on the first day of the Poland invasion, when he got Britain's ultimatum. Britain told him, "unless the German Government are prepared to give His Majesty’s Government satisfactory assurances that the German Government have suspended all aggressive action against Poland and are prepared promptly to withdraw their forces from Polish territory, His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom will without hesitation fulfil their obligations to Poland."
And he still did it.
The fucking idiot.
How does this guy have any fans at all? Even his supposed diplomatic finesse, from 1933-1939, falls apart on closer examination. All he was really doing was putting his head down like a bull and charging forward on the hope that his enemies were bluffing. He's like a mediocre quarterback who seems flashy for a couple years and gets a lot of attention as a possible all-time great, but then gets figured out and no-one takes him seriously again.
He wasn't a brilliant leader, he was a passionate lunatic who bought into his own bullshit and ran a guru trip on the whole country.

Other urls found in this thread:

sci-hub.cc/10.1080/13518040590914136
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Dude just predict the future lmao

He also fucked up in the Eastern front and North Africa. Dumbass.

What's there to predict in the following?
unless the German Government are prepared to give His Majesty’s Government satisfactory assurances that the German Government have suspended all aggressive action against Poland and are prepared promptly to withdraw their forces from Polish territory, His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom will without hesitation fulfil their obligations to Poland.

Any leader who started a war they ended up losing is a shitty leader by your logic, don't be so simple.

No he was a shitty leader because he would've won as long as he didn't invade the larger non aggressive neighbor to your East creating a two front war and splitting your army in two.
Hitler was legitimately such a shitty leader his own military tried to kill him multiple times

Hitler was mediocre/bad in everything. He achieved so much only because everyone else was even shittier.

Not exactly. My logic is that any leader is shitty who fulfills the following:
1) he loses a war
2) losing the war existentially endangers the nation
3) he was not forced into the war, but could conceivably and realistically have avoided it through better statesmanship

he was under heavy political attack from all sides and within germany. the war was really an inevitabillity wether they attempted to starve him out or just straight up annexed germany jews were not going to let hitler win

with that said people who worship him today are retarded because he lost. you dont worship losers. you remember them. you remember their efforts but you dont worship the loser. hitler was a hero who put it all on the line to stop his people from
being dominated but he lost. so leave him in the past where he belongs

hitler would tell you this himself

So by this new 'upgraded' logic:

Any leader who started a war they ended up losing (that threatens the existence of the nation) is a shitty leader by your logic. Cool.

Point #3 doesn't apply because no leader is 'forced' to declare war.

Please post more on Veeky Forums, you seem to have such well-spoken insight

>the war was really an inevitabillity wether they attempted to starve him out or just straight up annexed germany jews were not going to let hitler win
What the fuck are you even talking about?

>Any leader who started a war they ended up losing (that threatens the existence of the nation) is a shitty leader by your logic.
is this up for dispute?
starting a war and then losing it pretty much conclusively relegates you to brainlet status

>the war was really an inevitabillity wether they attempted to starve him out or just straight up annexed
I don't buy it. The British and French publics had little appetite for war, still with WW1 heavy on them. Stalin could have started a war had he wanted one, but he was cautious and only liked to pick on small countries. And in any case, Stalin could only have attacked Germany by going through Eastern Europe, and this would probably have driven Britain and France into closer relations with Germany as a bulwark against the USSR, which would have put Hitler in a much better position than he had been in before.

You're no longer worth talking to

>Any leader who started a war they ended up losing (that threatens the existence of the nation) is a shitty leader by your logic. Cool.
Yes, starting an unforced war that endangers the nation existentially, then losing the war, makes you a shit leader. I don't really understand the logic for how it doesn't make you a shit leader.

russia was attacking germany no matter what dude. that was an inevitability. that was a large part of the reason hitler and fascism rose in the first place. to resist commies. lenin had been funding communism in germany for 30+ years and had hench men pushing to dominate germany during weimar republic. hitler was on the street as a young lad when all this was happening and thats where his deep hatred for the jews was sealed. the german communist party was funded by lenin and 90% of the members were jewish

If the great powers decided to step in before 1939 there would be no war or Hitler. He was playing with fire.

ww2 was happening wether hitler made the first move or not

>russia was attacking germany no matter what
/pol/ please go

The German communist party effectively ceased to exist in 1933.
Ok, imagine Hitler doesn't invade Poland. Sometime in the early 1940s, Stalin drives west.
Think about that imaginary geopolitical situation.
Isn't it much better than Germany's actual geopolitical situation in the early 1940s?

>russia was attacking germany no matter what dude
Substantiate your claims.

>axis couldn't win the war maymay
>what is not listening to generals
>what is Russian aggression
>what is inept Mussolini

ww1 and ww2 were really one war

ww1 never concluded itself. it didnt just stop because the shots were no longer firing

to say that ww2 would have never happened if hitler had of never existed is laughable

>first move
He made like 5 or 6 moves before WW2 happened. Stop being vague, what was even his first move?

>rearmament (violation of Treaty of Versailles)
>remilitarization of the Rhineland (violation of Versailles and Locarno)
>Anschluss (violation of Versailles)
>Sudetenland
>Invasion of Czechoslovakia and the creation of "independent" Slovakia
>Memel/Klaipeda
The Western powers DID NOTHING to stop it.

Only way to win the war would have been to develop nukes first. But Hitler fucked that up too, by never bothering to devote much attention to the field. The whole "Jewish Physics" stupidity (Lysenko-tier) didn't help either.

>Deutsche Physik (literally: "German Physics") or Aryan Physics (German: Arische Physik) was a nationalist movement in the German physics community in the early 1930s. A pseudoscientific movement, it nonetheless won the support of many eminent physicists in Germany. The term was taken from the title of a 4-volume physics textbook by Nobel Laureate Philipp Lenard in the 1930s.
>Deutsche Physik was opposed to the work of Albert Einstein and other modern theoretically based physics, which was disparagingly labeled as "Jewish Physics" (German: Jüdische Physik).

>what is not listening to generals
He did, though. Barbarossa was planned by various German generals. The generals themselves convinced Hitler to do luftwaffe raids and let the army recover:
>Kleist asked Rundstedt for a pause while the armoured units recovered and the infantry caught up, and Rundstedt agreed to this. At the same time, Göring attempted to persuade Hitler that the Luftwaffe could destroy the trapped Allied armies, freeing the German forces to turn south towards Paris. Hitler accepted this view,

>what is Russian aggression
Substantiate your claims. If you're going to cite Suvorov, then let me get this out of the way:
sci-hub.cc/10.1080/13518040590914136

>axis couldn't win the war maymay
How could they have won? I can only think of "Nazis not being Nazis"

I'd say Hitler would've never achieved nukes faster than the U.S.A, it was simply a much larger industrial powerhouse, had more Uranium, heavy water (not to mention the sabotage that happened in Norway). Also the USA had the top minds across the world working on it, so yeah I agree the "Jewish physics" meme hurt them hard as well.

Forgot to mention the "Luftwaffe raids" was about Dunkirk.

>to say that ww2 would have never happened if hitler had of never existed is laughable
See: and

>I'd say Hitler would've never achieved nukes faster than the U.S.A, it was simply a much larger industrial powerhouse, had more Uranium, heavy water (not to mention the sabotage that happened in Norway). Also the USA had the top minds across the world working on it, so yeah I agree the "Jewish physics" meme hurt them hard as well.
Hitler would have had to initiate a program before the other powers did, and to make sure to go as long as possible without spooking the other powers into initiating their programs. But that would have required 1) him understanding the atomic possibilities, and 2) him not being a moron.

stalin had been lobbying against hitler since his rise to power. it wasnt 1 year before ww2 that stalin had attempted to create an alliance with britian and france to combat germany, this was before hitler had many any public moves. in 1939 they did a fake peace pact but that was all for show because they'd been under cutting and toying with wach other for years prior. there was really a very passive agressive relationshii between russia and germany over those years

Cont. of And I should clarify, I don't think it would have worked even then. Would have been extremely hard to keep secret, for one thing.

When I said "Substantiate", I meant cite sources.

>it wasnt 1 year before ww2 that stalin had attempted to create an alliance with britian and france to combat germany, this was before hitler had many any public moves
Hitler had already occupied several nations at that point, thus spooking other powers.

thats because hitler crushed them once he rose. there was a point during the weimar republic in which communism nearly took germany. this was when hitler was a young man. it was a 20 year battle for the future of germany. hitler and the germans won that battle but lost the war

>that was all for show
Oh yes, I guess that's why NKVD and Gestapo worked together and they signed additional commercial agreements.

Very good points, I also believe keeping this secret would be impossible. I recently picked up a book called "The Cold War Spy Pocket Manual", and it has an insane amount of information on how spies operated. One was how the USSR managed to infiltrate the UK and U.S and receive information about the Manhattan project from insiders/collaborators (primarily scientists themselves). Soviets literally went all the way to places like New Mexico and Boston, UK to gather information on the nukes (They even had a codename called "Enormous" for the Manhattan project). But yeah I agree keeping this project secret would require the Nazis to have counter-intelligence and loyalty greater than the U.S and USSR combined

>there was a point during the weimar republic in which communism nearly took germany
There wasn't. Your ignorance is showing.

That's interesting stuff. I'll check that book out.

When do you think they came closest? 1919?

no he hadnt. this was before even that. the whole world was lobbying against hitler well before ww2 had happened both economically and politically. stalin offered a million troops to england and france if they would attack germany with him and they declined. then a couple years later stalin and hitler were signing a peace treaty. which was such a huge shock to the public. in reality it was a passive aggressive drama move from two nations that were already at war

you obviously dont know shit about the weimar republic. cool argument though dude

You definitely should, while it does mainly talk about how Soviet spies operated, the absolute organisation and acting involved is crazy. One part I recall well was how some Soviet spy was waiting up to meet with his officer near an American bank, when he waited for 10 minutes a police officer went up to him and told him to get the fuck out. As soon as that happened the spy was being followed by 2 casually dressed Americans until he entered a subway station, crazy stuff.
Also one of the collaborators who leaked information to the USSR on Manhattan Project was Klaus Fuchs, if you're interested.

So when, according to you, did the communists nearly take Germany?

>your mortal enemy to your east which you've sought to destroy for decades is in a vulnerable window where its army is weakened from purges and shows it during the Winter War, while your army has just won a string of stunning victories
>it's also supplying you with vital metals, foodstuffs, and mineral oils, necessary to continue the war, at tough prices, knowing they can trade with someone else
>it's growing in strength day by day and is in no rush to go to war, while you're the one who's racing against the clock
We have the benefit of hindsight today, but back then it must have seemed the perfect plan. Get rid of a dangerous opponent while they were vulnerable, and also take their resources to end your dependence on imports and utilize them to continue the war against the West. Their other options didn't seem comparable.
>continue the Battle of Britain
Not happening with just Western Europe under German control, the supplies aren't there to compete with Britain and its empire alone in a resource-intensive air and sea war.
>Sealion
With what, river barges?
>focus of North Africa
The Germans had enough trouble supplying their paltry force of 7 divisions, given the low port capacity and very poor infrastructure. Any more would have been a disaster.
>just sit there and wait
While the blockade continues to constrict a previously import-dependent Western Europe, harvests drop year by year, the West has untold amounts of resources to draw from, and the Soviets can cut the expensive trade or even invade you when things inevitably go to shit?
The Germans were in the mindset of "fortune favors the bold" at the time, and it seemed to be true, especially in the first months of Barbarossa. It wasn't a shitty decision in itself, but the fact that they cornered themselves into seeing it as the best option was.

its obvious your knowledge on this subject is limited but here

1920s berlin was a complete shit show between radical fascists and communists vying for control of the artificially bled dry german government

ussr was openly attempting a workers revolution in germany during the 1920s you can read all about it here in weimar republic section. had hitler and fascism never rose they would have taken germany by vote.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

Your link disagrees with you. 10% is hardly "nearly take Germany".

Jesus Christ you're thick

>better than everyone
>bad
Pure logic there

they took 13.2% when they went against hitler who took 30%. in the end their scummy aggressive jewish led attempts at forcing their hand on the german people pissed alot of people off and pushed a whole lot of moderate people on to hitlers side. secondly the communist party of germany would have just taken germany by force like they did in russia. lenin tore down a thousand year old monarchy with only like 100k members in his party. the german communist party had 300k members compile that with the messed up government in germany at the time the whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen. hitler witnessed this shit first hand. he was on the streets of berlin in the 1920s and politically active. before this point he was not anti semetic. he could never understand why the jews got such a bad wrap. it was only after seeing with his own eyes their leading roles in forcing communism on germany that he became anti semetic.

It was a self-defence situation. He had to defend himself through Poland and France

>stormfag is wrong about everything but thinks he is right
Wow, what a surprise.

>1920s berlin was a complete shit show between radical fascists and communists vying for control of the artificially bled dry german government
Hardly. Radical fascists were irrelevant in the 1920s. The biggest threat to the government was the army. Hitler and his little Munich (not in Berlin) putsch was just a small adventure, Kapp putsch was more dangerous.
>ussr was openly attempting a workers revolution in germany during the 1920s
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country
Of course the Soviets supported the communists everywhere, but that doesn't mean the KPD could take over Germany.
>had hitler and fascism never rose they would have taken germany by vote
Unlikely. Reichswehr was extremely anti-communist and most people wouldn't vote for the communists.

lol dude this isnt debatable history...

wtf are you doing

>secondly the communist party of germany would have just taken germany by force like they did in russia
You mean like they tried in 1919? When most people supported the social democrats and they were massacred by the army?

>they took 13.2% when they went against hitler who took 30%
Your numbers are way off.
>The German Communist Party
300k members isn't a lot and I'm sure most of them were not part of their paramilitary organization. For example Stahlhelm (DNVP) had some 500.000 members.

Explaining why you're wrong.

>this isn't debatable history
I'm sure you've never read a single serious work on Weimar Germany and Hitler's Machtübernahme.

300k is a huge ammount of people and more than enough to stage a coup as exemplified by literally every prominent dictator ever from ceaser to napoleon to mussolini to lenin

most coups throughout history have been done with less than 50k people

again you dont know what you're talking about

lol on his would somebody try to revise the political dynamics of the weimar republic.... even the most leftist historian would never attempt what you're doing right now. i mean half of the leftists action groups of today are direct off shoots of that period of history. anti-fa for example only exists because of the weimar republic

you need to not talk about things you know nothing about

only on his would*

You're so dumb it's not even funny.

>less than 50k people
If the army supported it. The Army was against the communists in Weiar Germany. Right wing paramilitary groups were better equiped and more numerous than RFB. And of course there is not a single proof of plans for a communist coup in 1932 or 1933.

again complete revisionist history. the communist party of germany in collaboration with the ussr was attempting a revolution from the end of ww1 all the way up until hitler rose to power and crushed their commie bones into pieces. this is not conspiracy. even the most leftist commie professors will not deny this.

you're a fucking retard your literally just making it up as you go along. this conversation is done

You don't know anything about political dynamics of the Weimar Republic. In your world SPD, DNVP, Zentrum, DVP and DDP don't even exist. The first three were bigger than the communists throughout the 1920s.

just stop

Name all these attempts. I'm tired of your vague nonsense.

I have a hunch that your comment is the first time he has ever encountered the terms DNVP, Zentrum, DVP, or DDP.

Probably SPD, also.

>Something I don't get about Hitler-lovers

They're edgy 12 year nazi-larpers. What's not to get? Le Hitler did nothing wrong xD

wow dude its almost like political periods are defined by their most radical sides... especially when one of those radical sides actually takes control... crazy

this would like be arguing that lenins rise to power wasnt a battle between monarchy and marxist because some centre parties also existed existed during that time

this conversation is done mate you've proven to me you not only have no clue what you're talking about but your also so ideologically blind your willing to redefine documented undeniable history in a sad desperate attempt at "winning Veeky Forums"

nice samefag btw

>wow dude its almost like political periods are defined by their most radical sides
They aren't.
>especially when one of those radical sides actually takes control
The Communists never took control of Weimar Germany. Their biggest success was a very short occupation of Ruhr in 1920. But this is a bit controversial because not all groups there were communists.
Naturally it was crushed by the government (led by the social democrats from SPD).

> lenins rise to power wasnt a battle between monarchy and marxist
It wasn't. Lenin's rise to power was fundamentally a battle between Bolsheviks and everyone else - moderate socialists, liberals, conservatives, monarchists, etc.

lol...

You do know Lenin didn't overthrow the Czar, right?

lol...

daily reminder that Hitler took Germany from the most powerful country in Europe to the 5th most powerful in Berlin

why are you just saying lol instead of answering him when you get btfo

because lenins coup on the tzars is one of the most prolific in human history and its just another retarded statement in this thread to add to the list of retarded statements in this thread by (you) some faggot whos skimming through wikipedia articles and not reading them correctly or adding his own selective bias onto documented history

you're obviously refering to the russian provisional government which was formed after the tsar began to lose power and headed by the rightful tsar alexis 2 (who was murdered by lenin btw) and only came into existance after an incompotent tsar and years of workers revolutions orchestrated by lenin and trotsky to destabilize the monarchy? and your claim is that lenin didnt take down the tsar because it had already accepted defeat with the russian provision government?

so weve gone from denying germany and russia were in conflict with one and other well before ww2 had started to denying weimar republic was defined by communism vs fascism to denying that lenin sucesfully deconstructed the monarchy

easily one of the worst threads ive ever seen on Veeky Forums. this is my last post, i hope you've learned something

>you're obviously refering to the russian provisional government which was formed after the tsar began to lose power and headed by the rightful tsar alexis 2 (who was murdered by lenin btw)
wut

You don't know what you're talking about.

>i hope you've learned something
I've learned that stormfags live in a fantasy world with alternate history.

>le hitler started the war

Walk me through how the war would have started if Hitler had not started it.

Study objective history because Hitler in fact did not start it.

>declare war on Poland that is allied with GB and France
>won't back down even after ultimatum
>WTF! You attacked us!!!!

Why are there so many (((shills))) here on their holiday?

>thinking GB and France actually gave a rat's ass about Poland.

Why the fuck would they make an alliance with Poland if they don't care about it dumbo

Where did he say that he thought that?
Look, this is tiresome. Give an argument for why I should think Hitler did not start the war.

HITLER DINDU NIFFIN LOOK AT MY INFOGRAPGHS
Fuck off /pol/.

Im not a nazi or german. I am a modern american and like many many americans I was taught as a child jews were helpless victims. I then suffered horrible horrible crimes against me by jews. jews crashed the american economy, they use the courts as the hq of jewish white collar crime, they take peoples land, money and even children in usa everyday. so hitler may or may not have been bad or good, but he was right about the jewish mennace. I wake up many days in desperate pain from the multiple jewish crimes that have been committed on me. I write to senators, I file court papers, and do everything I can to get justice . The jews have a death grip on usa using their federal reserve counterfiet scheme and the federal courts. they pay off politicians and make the law that outlaws your basic rights and legalizes mass theft. killing the jews is not only right it is imperative for humanity

>I wake up many days in desperate pain from the multiple jewish crimes that have been committed on me
>mfw can't find this as pasta
>mfw you actually wrote it

If Hitler had stopped in May of 1939, and said to all his people: "okay we successfully re-united Germany, no more annexations now, no new territorial expansions" then he would have fucking won. But no, he just HAD to have that tiny strip of Poland.

This, brits and frogs were saying up until 1939 "hurr durr don't hurt germanies feelungs as long as they keep paying gibs they can ignore the rest of the treaty"

Stormfags are borderline retarded. Even facts such as Hitler aggression are now Jewish lies.

I'm fairly certain the economy was unsustainable because he spent most of the budget on re-armament/military, no?

They weren't even paying anything. They stopped paying in 1930.

>The first duty of any good statesman is to not get you into
>Unnecessary
>Wars
>Implying the wars were unnecessary

Why do liberal believe Hitler is the same meme they see on TV and movies. I bet they believe in ye old "Hitler never listened to his generals" meme too

>Hey guys, remember when I said we would unite all German people under one nation
>Well... Let's just forget about Prussia and trying to take the Danzig Corridor like lol
Why would he do that?

>Hitler never listened to his generals"
I've noticed that's more of Wehrbs who do that, rather than "liberals".

Source?

When I think of Hitler as a shitty leader my first thought always goes to Normandy

>Ze Allies are invading!
>but ve have a tank brigade nearby to stop them!
>but only Hitler can allow them to move
>can ve ask him?
>he is asleep and I don't want to wake him

And then the beaches were stormed. What an asshole.