What's the story

What primary sources?

Of course gassing Slavs wasn't the Nazi policy, but some of them were in fact gassed. I think the first victims of the gas chamber were actually Soviet POWs.

I don't care about the holocaust I'm just here for tiny nazis!
:3
Do you think they're from the infamous Kleinesdeutschland SS division?

Certainly a force I'd not wish to cross. =]

If you knew your shit you would know that the being worked to death is also part of the holocaust.

>having to work is holocaust

I do not understand Holocaust denial. Shouldn't the fact that every single historian believes it happened, and are mostly in agreement on the amount (as in around 5-6 million Jews, 5 million others) be enough to convince?
It's like if someone denied a basic principle of physics, like entropy or some shit. Even though everybody agrees it's a thing, just because it doesn't quite fit into your head, or it simply SEEMS too fantastical, it must not be real.

I think there's legitimate speculation about who in the German High Command, up to Hitler himself actually knew about it (and what they knew) just because there's a general lack of documentary evidence. So how it was actually planned (e.g. was it systematic? did elements of the SS or SS as a whole simply do it themselves) is a topic that should be debated.

I also think the death figures are more like 5.1m.

>(as in around 5-6 million Jews, 5 million others
Ah, yes, love those made up numbers and the deliberate choice of 5 million "others" so as to it being a smaller number than that of Jews. But hey, they only lied about the 5 million "others" which now turned into upwards of 9 million "others" and as high as 20 million "others".

Fuck you and your appeal to authority.

if you want to clear the nazi name so bad saying the holocaust wasn't as cruel isn't going to do it

It wasn't REAL national socialism though ))

But historians agreed on the number in the 50's, with very little variation since then. Don't trust the Daily Mail you retard.

>Fuck you and your appeal to authority.
Yeah that's right, me and you, WE know the truth.
Fuck the scientists, fuck the historians, the professors, fuck the doctors, the guidance counselors, the therapist, fuck my parents, my teacher.

Let me ask, why do you so vehemently deny history, do you apply the same rigour to physics, math, or do you blindly trust that because it fits your worldview?
Please do tell, I'm unironically interested.

>But historians agreed on the number in the 50's, with very little variation since then
But you're wrong, even the wikipedia article on the fucking holocaust claims 9 million "others". The 5 million "others" was literally made up by Jews to illicit sympathy but maintain a lower number than 6 million Jews.

Today we know, for a fact, that far more non-Jews died than Jews, you dumb faggot, yet people like you still refuse to believe it.

>Let me ask, why do you so vehemently deny history,
Yeah, I'm the one doing it, not you while you're literally parroting Jewish post-war propaganda.

>even the wikipedia article
And here I was, thinking Wikipedia was just a long list of Jewish lies, good to see that's changed.
>article on the fucking holocaust claims 9 million "others".
It sure does, if you ignore literally the entire article and only look on the small info box on the right. If you read the introduction at the top for example, Wikipedia will tell you this:
>A broader definition of the Holocaust includes the killing of the Roma and the "euthanasia" of the disabled and mentally ill. An even broader definition includes ethnic Poles, other Slavic ethnic groups, Soviet citizens and prisoners of war, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, black people, and political opponents.
Considering that we are dealing with (((them))), (((they))) probably picked the highest number for the ADHD people's little info box.
Now, if we don't count dead Belarussian and Ukrainian slavs, we get the usual number, the number which has been agreed on for 60 years, and which I mentioned in my first post.
You seem to enjoy Wikipedia articles, so I'll just link another relevant one:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

>we know, for a fact, that far more non-Jews died than Jews, you dumb faggot, yet people like you still refuse to believe it.
Yeah, I agree. But are those deaths part of the "Holocaust"? That's the question. I know that a titanic amount of Russians perished in WWII at the hands of the Germans, but is this part of the Holocaust? I mean, this is pretty basic WWII history.
>you're literally parroting Jewish post-war propaganda.
Historians have pieced together accounts of the Soviet Union, and what exactly happened in the 1930's for example, they looked through their propaganda. Historians have sifted through American propaganda, and created a less biased account of the Cold War. Historians have accurate information on the Battle of Kursk, and do not rely on the Wochenschau or other German propaganda for that event. Why 1/2

Why do you believe Jewish propaganda specifically, to be so resilient to historical inquiry?

>america begins a massive publicity campaign after 1945 trying to improve the public image of krauts.
>a big part of this was to try and prop-up as many native germans living in america
>mfw this is the reason why von braun is seen as the father of aerospace and not robert goddard i.e. an american
>downplay the actions carried out by groups of krauts, mainly the wehrmacht
>inadvertently gives fuel for future brainlet internet krauts

/pol/ is like the nigger in a court room smacking his lips telling the judge how he "dindu nuffin" and that all the (((evidence))) against him is from raycist white people, therefore it's invalid.

it happened, but it really should've happened to germans instead.

this

>inadvertently gives fuel for future brainlet internet krauts
Most of /pol/ and stormtards aren't German. It's pretty obvious they don't speak the language or understand contemporary German culture (much less how German culture used to be)
t. Kraut

Stormcunts BTFO

/pol/ worships Germans but doesn't actually know anything about them other than "Muh Hitler"

>And here I was, thinking Wikipedia was just a long list of Jewish lies, good to see that's changed.
Point me to where I said that

>>A broader definition of the Holocaust includes the killing of the Roma and the "euthanasia" of the disabled and mentally ill. An even broader definition includes ethnic Poles, other Slavic ethnic groups, Soviet citizens and prisoners of war, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, black people, and political opponents.
>Considering that we are dealing with (((them))), (((they))) probably picked the highest number for the ADHD people's little info box.
>Now, if we don't count dead Belarussian and Ukrainian slavs, we get the usual number, the number which has been agreed on for 60 years, and which I mentioned in my first post.
The number of 6 million Jew and 5 million "others" includes every non-jew that also died in the holocaust. We know, for a fact, that it is not correct, you faggot. That is the broader definition you are parroting. You are an idiot for claiming so and you're doing what you're accusing me of doing-denying history.

>Yeah, I agree. But are those deaths part of the "Holocaust"? That's the question.
According to you, you intellectually dishonest faggot, it's 5 million others and 6 million Jews.That is how your definition went as per . That is how the narrative has been. as you say, since the 60's. That narrative is false and now you're trying to weasel yourself out like a little bitch by trying to argue the definitions of the holocaust while already establishing it.

>Let me ask, why do you so vehemently deny history
Point me to where I denied history, you whiny straw manning faggot.

So, this is what Bismarck meant with Kleindeutsche Lösung, huh?

>Point me to where I said that
No, it is an almost ubiquitous point among deniers though, good to hear you think otherwise.
>The number of 6 million Jew and 5 million "others" includes every non-jew that also died in the holocaust. We know, for a fact, that it is not correct
I was taught it was 6 million Jews, and 5 million "others". This is therefore my definition of the "Holocaust". I am still aware of the genocides performed by the Germans, and the other deaths they caused. You should not be surprised that historians are in disagreement about which deaths exactly are part of the "Holocaust", and which are part of a different tragic historical situation. There are different definitions, some broader, some less so. These are not Jews trying to trick you, this is simply a positive sign of historical inquiry and debate.
>you faggot
Calm down.
>you whiny straw manning faggot
Are ad hominem attacks not as much of a fallacy as straw men?

>No, it is an almost ubiquitous point among deniers though, good to hear you think otherwise.
Where did I deny anything except your falsehood statement?

>I was taught
You were thought wrong, in fact, you were given the Jewish propaganda line.

>This is therefore my definition of the "Holocaust".
Who are the others you dumb fucking idiot? They're Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Yugoslavs, etc you dumb idiot. They chose this line and those numbers intentionally, because they were propaganda to illicit sympathy with the Jews, especially after Israel was formed.

>You should not be surprised that historians are in disagreement about which deaths exactly are part of the "Holocaust"
Which historians, faggot? There's two definitions. The holocaust being specifically the Jewish death count or the general death count of civilians caused by the Nazis in occupied areas, including the 6 million Jews. You can't cherry pick to make your number fit the narrative.

Stop being an intellectually dishonest faggot and admit you believe propaganda lies constructed with an agenda.

>Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli Holocaust scholar who chairs the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, said he warned his friend Wiesenthal, who died in 2005, about spreading the false notion that the Holocaust claimed 11 million victims — 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews.

>“I said to him, ‘Simon, you are telling a lie,’ ” Bauer recalled. “He said, ‘Sometimes, you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’ ”

>Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million.

renowned holocaust denial journal:
jewishjournal.com/news/nation/214283/remember-11-million/

Fuck off back to plebbit.

Funny how you give credit to the word of that jew, almost as if those scheming kikes can't be trusted unless their narrative fits yours. Really takes the neurons for some jogging.

>you were given the Jewish propaganda line.
Yes, my tiny private school in a small irrelevant European country was cooperating and feeding me and fellow students evil Jewish propaganda.
>Who are the others
Homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, various political enemies, Romani, and Poles. In my opinion. Of course there are some much more educated people in the field who think different, but there are also some that agree. I think you should read some histories of the Holocaust, and figure out your opinion.
>Which historians, faggot?
Christopher Browining for one, who I find my self agreeing with most of the time. Others could be Martin Gilbert (though he's more old-school, but maybe you'd like that) or Andreas Hillgruber, though he's a bit too apologist for me.
>Stop being an intellectually dishonest faggot and admit you believe propaganda lies constructed with an agenda.
Well dang, guess that book-reading was all for nothing, everything I believe is propaganda.
>Fuck off back to plebbit.
lol reddit spacing

it didn't happen
Veeky Forums doesn't like denying it because they need to be edgy
And the only way to be edgier than the edgelords on /pol/ is denying the deniers of the holocaust

Funny how you can do nothing but strawman because you're a dumb little bitch with no argument.

>Yes, my tiny private school in a small irrelevant European country was cooperating and feeding me and fellow students evil Jewish propaganda.
Yes, exactly, as I've proven to you with a Jewish source no less. While you can continue straw manning with your gay ass little friend.

Cognitive dissonance at its best. You heard me, faggot, back to plebbit.

>Believing in reality is now "edgier than /pol/"

Thanks, postmodernism!

So like, are we cool? Do we agree on the 6 million or what?
This has stopped being fun

First victims at Auachwitz. Some of the AR camps had been gassing Jews prior.

You're a dishonest petty faggot that can't hold an argument without devolving into straw manning and accusing me of shit I haven't said or done. There's such a thing as Jewish propaganda and Jewish lobbies, sadly they make up shit to further their goals, sadly idiots like you believe it because you're too "intelligent" and anyone who doubts any part of the narrative is a holocaust denier stormfag. It's okay though, doesn't matter how many goys died, right? It's okay to diminish their deaths, number of dead, and their suffering and make them second to Jews.

Lastly, some of my family was in Dachau. Go fuck yourself.

You're really passionate about a minor disagreement in regards to a subjective definition. If you both agree in regards to the death tolls of different groups, is the matter of what falls inside and outside of the "holocaust" name and what doesn't really worth that much sperging?

>There's such a thing as Jewish propaganda and Jewish lobbies, sadly they make up shit to further their goals, sadly idiots like you believe it because you're too "intelligent"
honestly mate, i believe there are powerful lobbies for israel at work, but i dont believe they give a single shit about how many "others" died in the holocaust compared to jews

Yes, because the 6 million and 5 million others line is nothing but intentionally created blatant propaganda which he is parroting as if its truth and doubting it is equal to holocaust denial.

It's not an argument of what's in and out of scope of the holocaust as that has literally nothing to do with the 6 and 5 million numbers quoted, those numbers were made up, get it, made up. Now you're trying, in retrospect, to "correct" that by arguing definitions of the holocaust because you're either stupid or, as already mentioned, an intellectually dishonest faggot that can't admit to being wrong and falling for propaganda like a dumb retard.

And yet i've proven you wrong.

>>Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million.
Bauer is a Jewish holocaust scholar.

>Now you're trying, in retrospect
I'm not that user, m8. I just think you are sperging over nothing. Yes, the 5 million numbers is arbitrary in what it counts and doesn't count as holocaust victims. If you are angry that your family that died at dachau isn't counted in the 5 million, nobody is denying that they were victims of the nazi regime (except stormtards, that is).

Also, discussing academic subjects based on journalistic articles is /pol/-tier, but you don't sound like a /pol/tard. Apply yourself.

>I'm not that user, m8. I just think you are sperging over nothing.
If I said only 1 million Jews died you'd be calling me a stormfaggot and telling me to go back to /pol/. Apparently you can lie as much as you want as long as its not about the Jewish death count only then is there a problem.

Then the very same person tells you that you are denying history and calling you a stormfag neo nazi holocaust denier when that's what they're doing, except its not denying Jewish deaths, but far greater number of non-jewish deaths.

>Yes, the 5 million numbers is arbitrary in what it counts and doesn't count as holocaust victims.
Never mind, arguing with fucking retards is pointless. Despite me explaining it to you, literally quoting an academic scholar on it, you still maintain that the number of 5 million is in any way, shape or form based on any deaths or even tangibly related to what constitutes part of the holocaust. The number of 5 million is not derived from the holocaust, its not derived from any estimates, it's not derived from any research, its not derived from "arbitrary" counting people as part of the holocaust. It's intentionally made up and used as propaganda. And, yes, you're trying to retroactively "correct" it rather than admit it wrong.

Fuck off, the sad part is that most of /pol/ is more intelligent than you.

>Nazi hunter told them he chose the 5 million number carefully
5 million number was not "chosen" by simon wiesenthal and dates way back...

>If I said only 1 million Jews died you'd be calling me a stormfaggot and telling me to go back to /pol/. Apparently you can lie as much as you want as long as its not about the Jewish death count only then is there a problem.
No, because we, I am at least, not denying that the 5 million, 9 million, even 11 million "others" died. I am aware they did, I know. What is being argued, is whether these deaths are part of the "Holocaust" or some other Nazi persecution.

Fuck off.

>No, because we, I am at least, not denying
Yes, you are. There were far more than 5 million "others" dead so without even going any further you're willfully denying millions more that died. You're not talking about if 9, 10, 20 million were part of the holocaust or not, you're arguing for 5 million. Where are the rest? Oh, you'll just claim, again, like the dishonest faggot that you are, that more died but only those 5 million were arbitrarily chosen to be "part" of the holocaust, which is "correcting" the record in retrospect and I'm supposed to go along with it like I'm a brain dead retard and can't see trough what you're doing. Your justifying literal lies and making excuses for those that parrot(ed) them. Now we know, for a fact, that the 5 million number has nothing to do with any of it, it's a number lower than 6, that would illicit empathy for the Jews from non-Jews.

>What is being argued,
What you are trying to make the argument about =/= what the argument is about. Faggot.

...

Jesus christ you sure are mad about literally nothing.

>mom, I posted a picture of text
Here, I'll ask you in another way. List the 5 million "others" that were part of the holocaust according to the definition which best suits you to explain the 6 million and 5 million "others".

Pro tip; you'll end up with a number way smaller than 5 million or way higher than 5 million unless you decide that every second pole, ukrainian, belorussian, yugoslav, etc civilian killed by the nazis was not part of the holocaust )(because then it wont line up with your retarded argument and we can't have that can we?). I'm surprised you found the print screen button you dumb faggot.

Fuck off

...

>List the 5 million "others" that were part of the holocaust according to the definition which best suits you to explain the 6 million and 5 million "others".
See the debate around the inclusion of different groups in .

There is no debate you delusional faggot. Point me to where there's a debate regarding 5 million. The only way you can reach 5 million "others" is to include Poles, Russians, Yugoslavs, Ukranians, etc and in that case you come up with a lot more than 5 million. Why is that so? Because the number is made up and has no basis in reality, its only purpose is propaganda.

There is no "debate" you are painting it as such when that is far from it and using it to retroactively fix falsehood statements made in the name of pro-Jewish propaganda. In fact I have provided you with evidence as to the source of the 5 million number and it has nothing to do with the ongoing "debate" which you claim.

>still being an intellectually dishonest faggot
or maybe you're just really fucking dumb, dunno

You're asking if the same group if geniuses who thought they found coded messages in leaked e-mails about a pedophile ring running out of a pizza parlor has a solid and accurate grasp of history.

>There is no debate
The text mentions several historians with several different definitions of holocaust. But who cares about what other historians do, let's check what this butthurt jew said to a newspaper.

>The only way you can reach 5 million "others" is to include Poles, Russians, Yugoslavs, Ukranians, etc and in that case you come up with a lot more than 5 million. Why is that so? Because the number is made up and has no basis in reality, its only purpose is propaganda.
Did you read the short pic I posted? The debate around inclusion/non-inclusion is not limited to nationalities, it studies if the motivation was racial and how they died.

>There is no "debate" you are painting it as such when (...)
Are historians still using different definitions just to make you look like an idiot? Is it a conspiracy?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_enumerated

Here you go, the others add up to around 5 million.

>but only those 5 million were arbitrarily chosen to be "part" of the holocaust
That's the thing though, there has to be a cut-off somewhere. But just like there is disagreement about when exactly the Middle Ages end in Europe, be it 1453, 1492, or the reformation, there is also disagreement about where the cut-off for being a part of the "Holocaust" is.
You and me disagree, that's fine.

>mfw this is the reason why von braun is seen as the father of aerospace and not robert goddard i.e. an american
That's not true, Goddard told the authorities multiple times about his rockets and the German interest in them, he was just ignored.

No, you're just arguing semantics and unaffiliated irrelevant matters to try and contradict the fact that the 5 million number is nothing but propaganda not derived from anywhere else. You are retro-actively trying to justify that propaganda with something completely unaffiliated with it.

The 5 million number was not arbitrary, it was not the result of inclusion or exclusion of certain victims of the holocaust. It was deliberate and with an agenda behind it.

The sources on that wiki page alone contradict you. Moreover this is further retroactive justification for propaganda claims. There is no Ukrainians, Belorussians, Russian civilians, Yugoslavs, Czechs, etc. All of whom were subject to deportations, executions and slave labor, destined to be ethnically cleansed and killed in large numbers. Why then do Polish victims and Russian POW's count, yet those do not?

Even worse, this is the main article en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

The 6 million 5 million doesn't exist, it never existed, there is no way of counting to produce those numbers. It was pure propaganda, faggot.

TL;DR eat shit and die genocide deniers, is that way, the tables turned

>That's not true, Goddard told the authorities multiple times about his rockets and the German interest in them

Why the fuck would Goddard want to approach a group of krauts for anything? He's Robert fucking Goddard, the krauts approached him regularly for technical advice on rocket design.

Also, Krauts left on their own will "we wuz und sheisse" about anything and everything. Fuck, they'll even "we wuz" about being Romans.

>he was just ignored

"When German rocket experts brought to America after the war were questioned about their V-1 and V-2 weapons, many were amazed and asked why American officials did not inquire of Goddard, from whom they had learned virtually all they knew."

"After the Nazis surrendered in May 1945, Goddard was able to inspect captured German V-2s, many components of which he recognized as his own inventions."

'His rockets ... may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles.' - Werhner von Braun

nmspacemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.php?id=11

g*rman authorities are lucky america is eager to forgive, so much so that it point one of its own under the bus just to make krauts look better.

>pic related

Since you like talking about the holocaust, here's something I like talking about i.e. the holokraut. Which btw should've been much higher.

fuck, image didn't attach properly on my phone.

oh my god are you actually brain dead that's the whole point of the argument. no one is saying that ukrainians, bellarussians, yugoslavs, etc weren't genocided we are simply pointing out that there are different definitions of who is included in the holocaust. some will save 5, 9 or 15 but that is just debating the definition not whether those people were actually killed or not

fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/document.htm