Could the Mongols in the 13th century conquer Europe? In my personal opinion, I say no. Any objections?

they feared the pannonian warrior

Defeating their armies doesn't mean you can conquer all of Europe. When the Mongols attacked Hungary for the first time, the Hungarians fled into their castles and other fortified buildings. Of course, the Mongols tried numerous of times to capture their castles but every attempt led to complete failure. Europeans could just hide in their big, fancy castles and there's nothing the Mongols could do about it.

Not true, at its most infantry heavy (late empire) typically a third of it was infantry.

No. Vietnam gave them trouble and so did Hungary fortified castle. Western Europe was mountains forests and a fuck ton of castles. They are also not real strangers to the way Mongols fought.

AFAIK the only steppe peoples that penetrated deep into europe were the Huns. Forests just fuck up their way of fighting.

>Obviously they would have conquered Europe if they could have done so.
Or more like Europe was saved when Ogedai died right when the Mongols were at their doorstep forcing them to come back.
They actually got much better at sieging after they conquered parts of China and took their siege technology. Ultimately, Kublai thought rich, advanced China was worth conquering much more than poor, backwards Europe.

Any of you bitches speak Romanian, Hungarian, Latin, or Polish?

Hunting for sources on the 1280s campaigns.

Mongols were beaten in Poland and Hungary even if they managed to somehow push deeper into Europe they would've been slaughtered

Europe thanks to its castles and to its endless ammount of manpower was unconqerable

Poland and Hungary were a bulk of European states. Past them were HRE. HRE may stand a decent chance, but it was a a lot smaller/weaker than Persian empire or the Chinese empire.

I always hear the terrain would fuck them, but thats just plain bullshit. B-b-b-but my dense forest. Mongols almost always use terrain to their advantage. They were the ones laying ambushes to the polish/hungary cavalry in the forests. Genghis Khan was raised in a forest. They were the ones using the terrain advantages against their enemies in all parts of China, Middle East, Central Asia, etc. Mongols have fought and learned more about every type of terrain there is. Be it snow, forest, plains, mountains, rivers.

The real problem was politics within the mongol empire. The western end of the mongol empire, aka the Golden Horde, was much more poorer than the Eastern side, Yuan, or the Southern-Western, Ilkhanate. Once the patron Khan of the Golden Horde died (and the new khan no longer had interest in western states), the Golden Horde were fated to lose their power. There's also the fact that Batu converted to Islam and because overzealous when Ilkhanate was purging Muslims in the Middle East. The fracture between the two lead to great loss of unity and power.

>Or more like Europe was saved when Ogedai died right when the Mongols were at their doorstep forcing them to come back.
Or more like you misunderstood his post, brainlet.

Why is this shit still thrown around here?
The mongols actually excelled in sieges after they got chinese and middle eastern experts working for them after the conquest of those places.
Also the eastern euros got shrekt the first time they only beat the mongols the second time.
If the khan didn't die during the first invasion they might fought on further.

Actually almost all the non-stone castles were destroyed by the mongols, the mongols just didnt spend much time with the stone castles due to time restraints.

Thia guy is correct. An interesting version of this question would be whether they could have done that if they were closer.

No since Mongols were unable to take stone castles

>thanks to its castles and to its endless ammount of manpower was unconqerable
Thats what they said about China and Persia

Yes, in fact the Mongols could fight battles for weeks at a time without getting tired

The sole reason is a khan which favored the european expansion died. Actually it was a series of short lived khans.

>Ogedei Khan
The main driver, had he not died, the invasion would have continued.
>Guyuk Khan
The next khan was also interested in expansion in all direction. But he was clashing a bit with Batu (Golden Horde)
>Mongke Khan
Mongke Khan was elected next. Batu wanted the position as well. However Mongke decided to give Batu command over parts of the western Mongol empire. Although not much since western mongol was mass of land with no value, it was enough for Batu to back off and try to relaunch the invasion. Batu died before I think and Berke took over.
>Kublai Khan
There was a civil war that took place leading to Kublai Khan's recognition. With this contention, the other two Khans (Berke(Golden Horde) and Hulagu(Ilkhanate)) didnt come to the coronation.

etc etc

Theres too many to type, but basically Mongol empire was dissolving due to internal politics

I mean, I could've been a son my parents' could be proud of.
I think the answer needs to incorporate the degree to which they'd tried.

>The fact that they didn't is proof that they couldn't.
What a genius conclusion. Do you even know why Ogedei stopped pushing to Vienna?

Did they invent meth?

How did mongols sneak into finland then?

>when Ogedai died
>>Ogedei Khan
>The main driver, had he not died, the invasion would have continued.
>t. people who read a wikipedia page
The ogedai theory was started by a monk who thought it was divine intervention and that God killed ogedai to call off the invasion. The theory is shit. There's actual records from a mongol official who stated that they didn't know.
>They were the ones laying ambushes to the polish/hungary cavalry in the forests
The main battle between hungarian forces (mohi) started with the hungarian forces ambushing the mongols at their camp across the river. the mongols came close to getting wiped out as half their force was caught between the river and the hungarian contingent. In fact there wasn't even a baiting maneuver here, it was only a flank. At legnica it was the poles who initiated battle, and the cavalry was baited away, forests were irrelevant.

What the fuck are you talking about? Ogedai died. Invasion was recalled. New kurultai required the presence of top commanders. There is no theory regarding that. It is what it is.

You're retarded. Go actually read a book. There is no definitive reason. You're literally parroting the reason given by Giovanni da Pian del Carpine. Subutai didn't even immediately return to the east, he dicked around in Russia for months before heading back. The idea of the message reaching them in 3 months is retarded; it took longer for messages sent by the crusaders in the levant to reach the pope in italy.

A new theory has come about which uses evidence gathered from the bark layers of trees, which reveal particularly heavy, cold, and wet/snowy winters from 1238 to 1241. This means the spring thaw will create swamps and bad mud. Coupled with other factors like a lack of large quantities of loot, heavy losses, failure to take fortifications, the fact that they had to chase Bela across the fucking balkans and still failed, the reason for the mongol retreat should be apparent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe#End_of_the_Mongol_advance
If you're too lazy to read a real book.

Here, wikipedia's source, an actual official directly stating they didn't know.
archive.org/details/Boyle1971RashidAlDin

Mongols defeated Vietnamese army that included elephants, but in the end they gave up on this due to guerilla warfare and sicknesses that comes along with being in the jungle.

Pretty sure Magyars were making raids all over Europe for a while until they lost some big battle and decided to stay in Pannonian Basin and settle down.

if poland and hungary could adapt and win against them then i think its safe to say that they had 0 chances of making any plans of conquering europe work

>the speed of mongol yam service is dictated by western european's messenger service system

You're pushing your own agenda here. The mongol yam service could reach 200-300 km per day. The mongols, if riding on the plains, could reach that distance within a week, at worst, a month.

The whole fucking mongol army operated on OODA loop that ran circles around the established armies because their ability to relay information from and to battle was the fastest of them all. The mongols could attack and raze one city, before its survivor tell the neighboring city about the attack, the mongols would be attacking that city.

The mongols were known as the fastest army in the world due to their speed. Their information system was even faster due to a solid Yam system established by the Genghis Khan.

There is a glaring issue with your source. Al-Rashid wrote this book during the height of Ilkhanate and Golden Horde's war. He was also writing this nearly decades later as he wasn't even alive during the time of the Golden Horde's invasion. Rashid was also the chief adviser to Ilkhanate, his work is there to discredit the Golden Horde and make them look weak. Consequently, once the Ilkhanate softened their relations with Golden Horde, Rashid was then deposed by the new khan who was friendly to Golden Horde.

> The idea of the message reaching them in 3 months
That's your first mistake. Now everything you just said is irrelevant, because someone will just strawman and point out, that mongol horses can gallop at full speed for months.

But... mongols ARE the pannonian...

>I'm not sure how this is even a question. Obviously the Americans would have conquered Europe if they could have done so. The fact that they didn't is proof that they couldn't.

Such shit logic

Yes they could have, in the same way that Attila invaded Europe. The mongols were very clever, they would conquer the steppe like peoples in the East (HRE, Poland, Hungary, Russians), then led a massive army of Eastern and Central Europeans into Western Europe. France would probably ber easily overwhelmed by the Horsemen, the allies would mop up all the islands of mountainous areas not suitable to cavalry.

No objections. It would require an effort on the scale of their invasion of China which took decades and they did not have those resources in the region, plus they had engagements elsewhere.

Despite their success at Mohi it is up to debate how long they could repeat those successes, at Mohi they took casualties from crossbows, in the same campaign they suffered a defeat near Vienna where local knights sallied from a castle with fresh horses and attacked a scouting party, in later campaigns they would not bother assaulting the new stone castles that had been built. They would face these challenges on a larger scale had they pushed into Germany and Italy.

How could they win? They would have to set up an Eastern European rump state, convert to christianity and begin poking and prodding Europe for opportunities, helping some usurped prince take back his throne, colluding with the Germanic to divide Poland and Hungary between them and such. They may have filled the same niche as imperial Russia and have some sort of chance of expanding further West as they expanded South in China from the north China plain. This is all very far fetched though.

fpbp

The Yam service was based in China and few outposts were founded in recently subjugated Russia
Source: books.google.com/books?id=4gB9DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=mongol yam system&source=bl&ots=tu-hQVDHmB&sig=FeTvE0zI9T9DY0Q0rCKEyCZb83Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVld-En9jWAhXnwVQKHd1kDxE4ChDoAQhQMAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>within a week
literally one of the most retarded things I've heard, you might be rivaling 's cap
>ran circles around the established armies because their ability to relay information from and to battle was the fastest of them all
Do you think mongolian horses were magically faster than others? Their breed of pony was marginally quicker but that's almost completely insignificant. Their competence in communication in battle came from their organization, which the armies of poland and hungary were severely lacking.
>The mongols were known as the fastest army in the world due to their speed.
Jesus, an army's speed is dictated by its slowest person. Mongols brought infantry and engineers along with camping supplies. You got a citation or a source for them being any significant bit faster than other armies?
>solid Yam system
The system is based around outposts and resupply; Outposts often failed to meet standards, see the above link.
>discredit the Golden Horde and make them look weak
>by making a passive comment (literally a single sentence) saying they didn't know
Has basic source criticism evaded you? He'd be biased about many things, but a simple fact is hardly objectionable. Further, he has nothing but praise for Genghis, Batu, and Subutai and their campaign in Europe. He even says they "conquered" the lands, which they clearly didn't.
>wasn't even alive
He was born only a few years after and had access to the Altan Debter. His book is one of the few accounts of the mongols in the west and you've no reason not to believe it.

You can ride a horse for a full day. If you really push a horse, you can make it run until it breaks its wind and can never be used again. They were superb horsemen and I don't have any doubt they could cross a thousand miles in a week, especially through the Eurasian steppe which stretches from the Ukraine to Manchuria and by switching off horses and passing messages to fresh riders.

Europe was also united as Christians vs Invaders and wouldn't fold as easily as the steppe people.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary

The reason Mongols did well in China is the reason Attila did well in Europe earlier. Cities are easy targets even fortified ones. Its a hell of a lot easier to besieged a city than it is to siege a castle.

Mongols struggled in Hungary not because they were bad to siege warfare but because Europe had more castles tha anywhere else. It is worlds harder to capture a hundred castles than a single city.

>thinking subotai wouldn't be able to do it because the golden horde couldn't
the golden horde a shit

>The reason Mongols did well in China is...
...China undergoing a fucked up threeway "civil" war between the Southern Song, the Northern Jin, and the Western Xia.
>Cities are easy targets even fortified ones. Its a hell of a lot easier to besieged a city than it is to siege a castle.
Yes, so easy the first siege against a fortified Chink city- Kaifeng- by the Mongols nearly destroyed the besieging army,

Can you post the rest of that image please

Mongolboos have to be the most annoying fucking people on this board, worse than wehraboos. It's like they heard of Dan Carlin's podcast on Reddit and now spam this board with "DAE think Mongols are literally undefeatable gods??"

Subutai coordinated a 500 km campaign against Poland and Hungary with 2 days of each other. They were using Yam system for that. If we give a minimum of 200 km per day with Yam service, a travel from capital of mongol to capital of hungary is 37 days. At an average speed of about 16 km per hour on the mongol ponies for 12 hours a day, thats fairly reasonable. If we reduce the speed to 10 km per hour and only 10 hours a day for a more relaxed run, That's still 74 days or roughly 2 and half months between mongolia to hungary. A distance of nearly 7200 miles

I fail to see how mongols couldn't do that with plenty of horses around and a developed yam system. Especially for the most urgent of the matter in mongol empire.

>Cities are easy targets even fortified ones
Ahh yes, Chinese fortitied cities are so easy, it takes nearly 5 years of complete blockade, Mongols building entire navies accounting nearly 5000 ships, navy with nearly 70K sailors, reinforced by 20,000 infantrymen, with constant siege equipment bombarding the city.

>Its hard to siege costal cities that can be supplied by sea

Imagine my shock.

>sea
>coastal
River

YES.

inb4 u niggers talk about heavily wooded forests.

Huns conquered Europe, Mongols could too.

/thread.

Huns didn't conquer europe you brainlet.

Persia and Central Asia were comically easy to conquer. The Kwharezmian dynasty was unstable. They parsed their troops in isolated garrisons to be defeated in detail, and said garrisons would often surrender with little to no fighting.

Here you go

So? It was still receiving supplies from the river no? Its the biggest issue with fortified cities, the large civilan population that needs constant feeding. Castles are superior defensive positions because they are mostly military personnel and are often supplied well enough to last extended periods while feeing the garrison. The difficulty of capturing a single city while still great is easier and better rewarded than capturing dozens of individual castles.

If you ignore castles and chase cities your supply lines are under constant harassment. If you ignore cities and target castles you give the enemy time to organise, months capturing castles is wasted time. Capturing a city gives a force like the Mongols loot to justify the time, death and expense. Capturing a castle just wastes time and men.

The decentralised nature of the Euro feudal system meant every man and his dog had a castle. It would take decades to conquer each European Kingdom if the Mongols performed each siege unopposed.

They built the navy to blockage the river.

they got as far as central France u ignoramus. They also controlled far up as Scandinavia and south to greece.

they stopped bc the same reason Subutai turned around, their leader died and they had to go choose a new one in the kurultai.

So it was being supplied from the river. That adds a layer of difficulty but it doesn't disprove my points.

A lone city surrounded sufficiently doesn't last very long. The cost surrounding a large city is justified in the end because it provides lots of loot. A single castle won't last very long either but the expense wasted capturing it isn't justified for the meager return. A network of castles is just a long line of costly sieges with a city at the end.

>implying civilians need to be fed
>implying you can't feast on civilians

No they didn't stop lying.

>They also controlled far up as Scandinavia and south to greece.
No they didn't you retard
How about you shut the fuck up?

>Subutai coordinated a 500 km campaign against Poland and Hungary with 2 days of each other
Ordering a diversion force to combat other enemies really isn't an impressive feat.
>They were using Yam system for that
The Yam system is a specific system of outposts and resupply points. You just glossed right over the book stating specifically that at the time the russian sector was lacking.
>16 km per hour on the mongol ponies for 12 hours a day
holy shit was right, you actually believe you can just run a fucking horse in the middle of the winter through fucking russia like a damn car. The Yam system is apparently the fucking katana to you guys.

So even if we assume that the mongol messengers did literally run their horses for 12 straight hours and made the trip in time, do you have any actual proof or evidence that this did happen? No, the mongols leaving isn't proof that would be incredibly faulty logic.

I really don't think people know how many castles there actually were in Europe. Put it this way: Hungary had 71 stone castles when they shrecked the second Mongol invasion. Does that sound like a lot? Let's compare it to the kingdoms further west:

The French province of Poitou, with less than 5%
of France's population, had 39 stone castles at the start of the 12th century. Maine is in a similar boat population wise, and had 62 stone castles at the start of the 12th century. At the end of the 12th century, the king of France alone owned over 100 castles, with his barons holding many times more (Kelly DeVries, "Medieval Military Technology," p. 227-228). In 1154, England had 300 stone castles (at less than 25% of France's population, and a similar population to Hungary). They built a lot more castles in the 12th and 13th centuries, so the number of castles should be higher in the mid 13th century.

And these are just full-sized castles. There are a lot more fortifications than just full castles. For every full castle, there'd be ten smaller fortifications. We're dealing with literally tens of thousands of these spread throughout Western Europe. It's absolutely ridiculous. Here's an example; it's about 50 years later than the period we're discussing, but it should still be close enough to consider:

hundredyearswar.com/Books/History/Evolutio.htm

>By the height of the Feudal Age (A.D. 1000-1300) Europe was dotted with fortified places. By way of example we may note that at the start of the 14th Century there were, in an area of approximately 1050 square kilometers just south of the forest of Fontainebleau in France, twelve forts, 28 fortified churches, five towers, four fortified manor houses, and six full-fledged castles, for a total of 55 fortified places, or roughly one for every 19 square kilometers. Few people were more than a 15-20 minute walk from a place of refuge.

Germany was just as densely fortified as France, probably more than England.

10 kmph is an average human jogging speed, or with a horse, a light walking speed.

16 kmph is a mild human jogging speed. A "damn russian car" "running" at 16 kmph would be the slowest car in the world.

You know what a Yam system is? Its not just a single horse riding 7000 km. Its hundreds of horses. A single endurance horse can comfortably ride about 50-80 km per day.

The definition of stone castles change depending on author.

The Castles that did fell to the mongols could be classified as "stone" castles, as they were mainly stones. But with other stuff like wood/earth reinforced/etc.

>10 kmph is an average human jogging speed, or with a horse, a light walking speed.
>lrgaf.org/guide/writers-guide.htm
>Walk – 3 to 5 mph (5 kmph- 8kmph)
>A "damn russian car" "running" at 16 kmph would be the slowest car in the world
Fuck do you even understand english? I didn't even say anything close to that. Learn basic reading comprehension before you reply. "like" is a simile, an analogy, not literal. Quotes are put around literal things the person said.
>You know what a Yam system is?
You don't seem to. It's a big fucking system and it's not as well maintained in some places. The system itself was focused in China at the time. It's not a magical summon card that allows a rider to travel faster across all mongol territories like you seem to purport.
>Yam (Mongolian: Өpтөө, Örtöö, checkpoint) is a supply point route messenger system
There is a noted lack of checkpoints in Russia at the time. Understand?
>A single endurance horse can comfortably ride about 50-80 km per day.
Throw me a fucking citation or source at least. My googling only came up with the above link.

>Endurance depends on a wide variety of issues – condition of the animals prior to their departure; the season; that day’s weather; geographic challenges they face that day; proper fit of the riding and pack saddles; how often and accurately the animals are fed, and how talented the riders are.

>Based on a loose “ideal” situation, a Long Rider can hope to average between 15 and 25 miles a day. You don’t ride a horse cross country like you drive a car. That means the Long Rider usually rides for five days and then takes two days off to rest himself and his horses.

u niggers don't think Anatolia doesn't have heavy forests, mountains, and heavily fortified castles everywhere?
It did and it didn't stop Mongols or Turks.

No actually, it doesn't. There was no region on Earth as densely fortified as western Europe.

First of all a lot of these pretty castles are totally nonfunctional and were built long after the Mongol period.

Secondly, you're wrong. Anatolia was the most fortified region in the world. Even the LOTR Mountain-fire alarm system is based on Anatolian fortifications. You got Byzantine, Arab, Armenian, Turk, Crusader, etc. all of them building castles EVERYWHERE.

>First of all a lot of these pretty castles are totally nonfunctional and were built long after the Mongol period
You're making shit up. Most of those citations are from long before the Mongol period, and the only one that post dates it only does so by a few decades.

>Anatolia was the most heavily fortified region on Earth
Citation fucking needed. Numbers for stone castles, please.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_beacon_system

google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&biw=1424&bih=816&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=castles in turkey&oq=castles in turkey&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i24k1.4041.5556.0.5635.17.15.0.0.0.0.142.1125.12j2.14.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..3.14.1123...0i67k1.0.G-4Aj8_IEgI#imgrc=_

Castles in Anatolia were more complex, more fortified, and more numerous than W. Europe.

I'm sorry your brainlet public education didn't teach u correct history.

Anatolia was HEAVILY FORESTED, almost all made up of heavy intense mountains and bottleneck mountain passes, super fortified. All things that you retards claim would stop Mongols in Europe. It wouldn't have. It didn't stop them in Anatolia. It didn't stop them in the Caucuses.

As for forests, India has more intense forests than anywhere in europe, and mughals and mongols blazed through India.

Mountains. Caucaus mountains and Tibet are more mountainous than Europe. Didn't stop Mongols.

Forts. Not gonna stop Mongols.

yOU need to give a citation for your initial claim that W.E. is the most fortified area in the world.

olddominionrides.org/EndurancePrimer/01.html

50 miles a day, or 80 km is easily doable with 3 months of endurance horse training. And that's just a modern folk doing this. In nomadic life style, their horses are lot sturdier especially when the entire family business, livelihood, empire's business revolve around the endurance of their horses.

>news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140806-mongolia-derby-horses-genghis-riders-adventure-race/
There are 25 horse stations 25 miles/40 km apart,

Combine the two and almost any horse can do 25 miles for their yam service.

Mongols had spies in London and up north in Glasgow u nigger. They were infiltrating and preparing for the invasion. just in case.

Their downfall is that they decided to become degenerate and just sit back and enjoy the interest payments instead of conquering the world. It happens to the best of empires.

Neither of those are sources on the number of castles in Anatolia. One is literally just a Google Image search. Do you have sources or don't you?

Their horses are objectively superior to other horses.

People have tested the Turko-Mongol horse breeds, and they blow all other breeds out of the competition for long-distance speed, endurance, and durability.

Throughbreds are mongrels made up of Turko-Mongol breeds.

Not comparable to workhorses and retarded mules that Eurofaggots call horses.

Yes but where are your sources.

There are so many castles that nobody keeps a list. Many of them are ruins now. And Anatolia is so archaeology rich that people literally don't care anymore. There's a sunken city or lost civilization at every fucking turn.

Unlike Euroniggers who think a 18th century villa is the greatest castle ever built and jizz all over it.

You need to show me a list of Euro castles functional at 1220.

NO CASTLES BUILT AFTER THEN MATTER U FAGGOT.

here is a very limited and incomplete list
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_castles_in_Turkey

Source : your roach mother's shitty asshole

...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_castles_in_Greece

Btw all the cool forts in France were 16th and 17th century shit. embellished later on cuz muuuh romanticism.
They couldn't stop jack shit.

The coolest and most advanced castle of the period in Europe: CARCASONNE, couldn't even stop Papal niggers at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

let alone CHAD Mongols with their alien-technology slant-eye jew artillery.

i don't care if you can't sleep at night, mongols r cumin 4 u.

Bullshit, Kievan Rus had literally 0 stone castles at that time. In Poland and Hungary, fortifications that "could be classified as "stone"" never fell.

Oh my God, it's you again. When told, that Kievan Rus lacked stone fortifications, you started posting pics of stone castles in Russia in Ukraine. Without checking construction date.

Also u faggot cunt,

Huns unironically conquered all the way through Europe. They got to Constantinople,t taking many significant castles along the way, managing to go through forests, and mountains. They got to Paris in the West, doing the same. They got to almost Central Italy. They got to Denmark too.

U THINK CHINA DIDN'T HAVE FORTS U RETARD?!?!?!?!

OR THAT MONGOLIA IS NOT IN SIBERIA AKA FORESTS N SHIT?????

Or that Kharzem and Abbasids didn't have more advanced fortifications than snownigger Eurofaggots a few centuries behind in tech????????????

Which city is better fortified or harder to conquer??
Baghdad or Paris, Baghdad or London, Beijing or Frankfurt? Beijing or Milan?

ITS BAGHDAD
ITS BEIJING

U drooling brainlet.

Not me u nigger.

Kiev had heavy fortifications during the Khazar period. It's described in Arab travel accounts. It was probably dismantled or recycled for other shit after Khazar collapse.

I dunno what happened later, probably some slavshit palisades like the early tech in AOE2.

In any case, Rus, Poles, Hungarians did have forts with stone.

>The coolest and most advanced castle of the period in Europe: CARCASONNE, couldn't even stop Papal niggers at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
>After the Massacre at Béziers, the next major target was Carcassonne,[40] a city with many well known Cathars.[41] Carsaconne was well fortified, but vulnerable, and overflowing with refugees.[40] The Crusaders traversed the 45 miles between Béziers and Carsaconne in six days,[42] arriving in the city on August 1, 1209. The siege did not last long.[43] By August 7 they had cut the city's water supply.
>Not a castle - fortified city
>Falls when is out of water
What a fucking surprise.

>Btw all the cool forts in France were 16th and 17th century shit. embellished later on cuz muuuh romanticism.

What a load of fucking bullshit you're embarrassing yourself. By the 16th 17th century castles had stopped being built for over a hundred years relying then on fortresses and vauban fortifications.
What's more in the 12-13th centuries Carcassonne wasn't the remarkable fortress we can see now (post restoration) but a simple fortified city like many others. The city was heavily fortified after it fell under royal demesne as it was then the border with aragon.

You sound like some angry turk baby

These circle jerking deus volt retards think the Mongols wouldn't have poisoned the wells, cut off all supplies, chucked in diseases animal carcasses, paid off spies and sabotaged defense measures, sapped under the walls (which NO EURONIGGER CASTLE at the time was built for), literally rained terror on the inhabitants.

>the autistic mongolaboos finally came in full force
this is hilarious

Give me a castle built by 1220, u nigger.

Those 16th-17th centuries castles are 1500s-1600s, not yet Vauban time is it faggot?

Unless Vauban was building at the age of 8, only the later part of the 17th century is STAR fortress time.

>By the 16th 17th century castles had stopped being built for over a hundred years

what the fuck was the was the Italian wars or this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
?????

>Which city is better fortified or harder to conquer??
>Baghdad or Paris, Baghdad or London, Beijing or Frankfurt? Beijing or Milan?
On user already told one Bronie archer earlier, that there is little difference between capturing castle and cities. Check earlier posts.
>Huns unironically conquered all the way through Europe.
Why the fuck does it even matters in this discussion?
>In any case, Rus, Poles, Hungarians did have forts with stone.
There were Hungarian and Polish stone castle. None of them were captured.
Give me one example of Kiev' Rus stone castle from 13th century.

Just some roaches going about MUH ANCESTORS

Ur evading the question.

and intentionally avoiding a historical discussion.

bc u r wrong.

>sapped under the walls (which NO EURONIGGER CASTLE at the time was built for),
You have absolutely no knowledge about this. Mountainous castles were impervious to sapper work, because you can't dig in solid rock.
>paid off spies and sabotaged defense measures
Good luck with castles
>cut off all supplie
Oh noes, this small garrison with food and water lasting for months and even years is almost done for.
>poisoned the wells
Good fucking luck with castles.
>chucked in diseases animal carcasses
the only somehow working thing
Good job, one castle surrendered after 3 months. Now there is only 9999 left to conquer.