We know that Stalin definitely did not expect the abrupt military action, especially after their non-aggression agreement, but from Hitler's perspective, the Soviets were building up and starting to concentrate their military on a mass scale, and already had cozied up to the border when they carved up Poland.
Was this an act of a preemptive knock-out blow to what was inevitable, or a megalomaniac's vitamultin-induced blunder into the abyss?
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there is no evidence to suggest that Stalin would have betrayed Hitler
>megalomaniac's vitamultin-induced blunder into the abyss
Describes Hitlers entire career very well, good post.
>Wehraboos
I don't think the Soviets were preparing an attack but they were preparing a defensive position as Stalin didn't trust Hitler and poor performance in Poland and Finland would obviously make Hitler believe Russia is weak. One of the main goals of barbarosa was to secure Ukrainian food supply and caucus oil supply.
The build up in 1941 was also contributed to spy reports coming in of an impending attack by the Germans and understood that their main goals were in the south.
The "Barbarossa was just a preemptive strike against the Soviets before they could invade Europe" was a Goebbels propoganda meme. If the Soviets truly were preparing for an attack their army and organization would have looked much different
Not to mention it'd make no sense to start the construction of the Molotov line if they were going for an offensive. Unless they were planning to make pillboxes with tracks
>Hitler could have won if he put all of Germany on tracks and literally just rolled over other countries
Damn
The funny thing is Hitler would have won if he hadn't invaded Russia.
And no it was not pre-emptive. It was a stupid hatred of commies that stemmed from the failed German Revolution.
And the thing is Germany sent Lenin who was living in Germany in exile back to Russia with money and arms to keep them out of WW1, so Germany's responsible for that Bolshevik revolution that left millions dead and the commies in charge in the first place.
This is wrong. Every bit is mistaken.
And you counter-point it with..............?
>Pre-emptive
As in, was the Soviet Union gearing up to invade Germany? No, but they definitely wanted Finland and Poland , and of course the idealogy of the commintern was to turn all of Europe (and the world) into gommunism. Germany's scramble to invade Russia was more or less just their to knock them out of rivalry for control of Central and Eastern Europe
>The funny thing is Hitler would have won if he hadn't invaded Russia.
How
You haven't read tooze's wages of destruction. The German economy was super dependent on soviet trade and war loot. Without fresh sources of war loot, the soviets could economically squeeze Germany over time. Given that Stalin was a dick, he could've forced German concessions just to maintain the trade status quo. Thus, any time Germany was making progress towards winning the war post 1940, Stalin could've simply squeezed the Reich.
>How
Pretty much just by steamrolling them as is what happened with France. Britain probably would've been conquered in a matter of weeks.
It would serve the PERFIDIOUS ALBION right imo
With what fleet? Winning the Battle of Britain wasn't possible because the brits could always move their airbases north and they always were winning the pilot training and fighter production war (citation:WoD). The kriegsmarine couldn't force the Channel, the Luftwaffe couldn't fully neutralize the RAF, and the German army did not have the ability to win without naval and air protected logistical support.
No, definitely not. Stalin was probably the most cautious of world leaders at the time. He wouldn't have taken a single bit of Eastern Europe aside from shit he could've gotten away with if Hitler's failures didn't essentially just hand Eastern Europe on a silver platter to the Soviet Union.
He wouldn't have succeeded in invading Britain. A permanent stalemate and then a peace would probably be settled at some point in the future.
He'd probably counter it with muh joos behind everything.
>The full might of German productive capabilities combined with whatever the Vichy has couldn't conquer Britain if the didn't have to deal with the Eastern Front , which took up the vast majority of resources and manpower
Wat
>Muh joos
Where does the meme of Jews being an angelic race of eternal scape goats who neva did nuffin even come from?
Despite the fact that its not as easy as "once they get on the island, it's over" (this is ridiculous all alone), how are they going to get across the Channel?
Personally I like asking retards questions so that they come to the answer by themselves as opposed to me telling them. Then they might actually accept the truth
Sea lion wargames always end in German failure. German attempts to seize the Vichy fleet would end as they did in real life, for reasons already stated the Luftwaffe couldn't gain superiority over the channel and Great Britain, and finally Germany only has a short time to inclvade before the USA floods England with lend lease making it completely impossible
Are you suggesting that Germany could have just built a fleet that could rival the Royal Navy?
They aren't, but they definitely aren't behind the Russian Revolution of 1917. That was mostly the Tsarist regime being a complete and utter shithole (no industry, GDP was Africa tier) and the Romanovs of the time not wanting to actually do the necessary economic reforms.
Conflict between the two countries was inevitable. Commies hated fascists and vice versa, vitriolically. Both countries were headed by chauvanistic, aggressive expansionists with giant egos.
It makes a certain amount of sense for the Germans to conclude that they were already on a war footing, were currently crushing everything in sight, and the Russians had just finished decimating their officer corps and failing to beat fucking Finland. Why wait until they have time to get back on their feet and dig in? If you manage to win in Europe because you didn't start shit with Russia when you did, and try to come back 5 or 10 years later, it's going to be a different kind of mess that may be just as unwinnable.
philmasters.org.uk
Please read this, it's obvious you don't know much about the subject other than youtube comment-tier banter. Ask anyone decently knowledgeable on this subject and they will tell you Sealion never could have happened under any realistic scenario
Lot of butthurt Angl*s here it seems. Yes because the Sea Lion War Game could definitely predict a hypothetical of what would happen if Germany never invaded Russia.
Of course. How silly of me. I'm just going to ignore the differences in productive capacities between the combination of France and Germany in this hypothetical and draw all my conclusions from a single plan made by the Nazis in 1940
Wew lad
There is plenty actually. And what friendship? Do you think Stalin saw anyone who he thought practiced capitalism as friends?
Back to rebbit.
>There was no overwhelming jewish involvement in the Bolsheviks movement after the with the Mensheviks even though most primary sources say otherwise
>Inb4 posts revisionism
Wew lad. It's not like communism is a jewish invention entirely but if you think that Russian jews didn't hate the tzars more than anyone else for the pograms then you might be smoking some pretty decent crack my dude
If the Germans take the time to fully mobilize occupied industry then any invasion becomes even more of a shitshow, as us shipments to britain alllow the anglos to dig in with tons of gear. The 1940 plan is considered because that's the least prepared the brits ever were you mouth breather.
Why was the Red army amassing on the border?
Who said that they needed to invade? It was just turn into a stalemate between the Axis and Britain as their is no way in hell Britain can out produce both countries. It doesn't matter how organize the British are for invasion in the long term.
Because the Germans had fully mobilized their war industries, and the relatively weak purged soviet military had been ordered to build up a new line of fixed defenses and to subdue the conquered territories.
If nazi Germany stalls, the soviets get to pressure the German economy, and unlimited USA support for the anglos >>> Germany + occupied territories.
You would already know this if you'd read "the economic history of the third Reich" or "the wages of destruction"
He actually didn't give a fuck and invited Ford over to build factories.
I'm sure there was some of that, but that didn't last for very long. The USSR in most of its history wasn't very kind to the jews. They didn't even have official diplomatic relations with Israel up until the Berlin Wall fell, my point is the Russian Revolution was hardly 100% Jewish creation, there were communists involved who happened to be jewish and joined up for well-deserved revenge. Pretty much everyone hated the Tsars and there was very good reason to do so. Russia had become a fucking shithole and joke under them by the early 20th century.
God bless and keep the tzar [spoiler] far away from us! [/spoiler]
>there is no way in hell Britain and the US can outproduce Germany and France
You're meming right
>unlimited USA support for the anglos
>Because FDR would be able to break the isolationist sentiments in a hypothetical scenario where the Soviet Union wasn't invaded
>Because if Germany actually had the ability to arm the beaches in a meaningful way beyond what shit tier defenses they had on Normandy it wouldn't turn into a game of economic pressures with no military action
Wewest lad
Germany's economy was always parasitic in ww2. Without fresh countries to loot, the USA (dragged in through Japan) against it, the German war economy would collapse under strat bombing around 1944 or 45.
>Soviets hated Jews meme
Not they just hated religious Jews and Jews who didn't renounce capitalist leanings. The reason Russia didn't recognize Israel until the fall of the Berlin Wall was probably because they were a capitalist and Zionist country which most gommunists would call fascism?
Tensions between Germans and Jews is more complicated than just
>Hitler came out of fucking nowhere and just convinced everyone to start shooting Jews
A lot of that had to do with the jewish involvement with the Bolsheviks and their massacres of civilians who were pro White Army. This would be seen through the lens of an ethnic consciousness as gentiles vs Jews, that then created this perception of the revolution as being Jewish.
I mean how is an athiestic revolution that murders the king and slaughters Christians going to be perceived when people find out Jews were involved with it?
>Anglos are THIS delusional
Wow
>It's the libertarian "Germany invaded other countries because it's Keynsian economy would collapse otherwise" meme
An hero Von Mises
What?
How else do you explain the systematic looting and slave a labor that Speer used to keep the war economy from collapsing? You're using memes to argue with tooze and other scholars on this subject
The full might of German productive capabilities was still less than that of the British Empire. The longer this lasts, the worse Germany's position is.www2.warwick.ac.uk
Even if the Germans succeeded in seizing the Vichy fleet, how are they going to get it out of the Mediterranean?
>countries was inevitable. Commies hated fascists and vice versa, vitriolically. Both countries were headed by chauvanistic, aggressive expansionists with giant egos.
>It makes a certain amount of sense for the Germans to conclude that they were already on a war footing, were currently crushing everything in sight, and the Russians had just finished decimating their officer corps and failing to beat fucking Finland. Why wait until they have time to get back on their feet and dig in? If you manage to win in Europe because
> I'm just going to ignore the differences in productive capacities between the combination of France and Germany in this hypothetical and draw all my conclusions from a single plan made by the Nazis in 1940
Seriously, read the pdf. Germany and all of her European conquests produced less than Britain and her empire.
It's the United States Of America. They could outproduce both France and Germany alone.
Britain alone could outproduce Germany and occupied France. The U.S. has, very roughly, 4 times the British production capability.
There you ago. This rested has to memeing
*retard
So your hypothetical scenario works out like this:
>German economy magically fixes itself and no longer relies on war loot to stay afloat
>German aircraft manufacturing magically fixes itself and is efficient and cost-effective like the Americans and Brits
>Germany magically convinces Japan to go against their own interests and not attack to the US, despite the fact Japan will certainly lose its power in the Pacific if this is done
>Germany magically prevents the US from entering the war despite FDR being vehemently pro-war with Germany
>Germany and France outproduce the US and British economy
>Germany never has any hostilities or disputes with the Soviet Union
Do you have any idea how absolutely inplausible and retarded this sounds? I'd ask you for a counterargument but I think you're just baiting at this point.
Holy hell. Wehraboos are dumb but libertarians are even worse.
Keynesianism != the incredibly overheated German war economy. Such an overheated economy could only be sustained through injections of foreign labor and capital.
I'm no libertarian, and neither is tooze
Wow nice argument you sure showed him
The Italian navy was a thing that existed, if they could get out of the Mediterranean the Germans would need to build less ships.
The Italian navy needed Gibraltar to escape, and they didn't have the capability to seize it. Suez does them no good because it's in the wrong direction.
The Italian and German fleets combined were still outnumbered by the Channel Fleet. On top of that you don't think the British Mediterranean Fleet would have also returned to the home isles if they knew the entire Italian Fleet left? Also why would the Italians do that, leaving their coastline unguarded and abandoning all of their troops stationed in North Africa?
This. Germany's problem both times was that it was up against nations that ruled pretty much most of the important parts of the world. If Russia didn't join in WW1, Germany still would've lost that. It's simple logistics.
You realize that industrial production in France and the rest of occupied Europe collapsed because they were import-dependent economies under blockade and their trucks and trains were confiscated for German use, right?
It takes literal years between the point where you start building ships and the process finish.
Unless Hitler was going to pull off some sick rush strat with tier 1 units he was not going to compete with Britain within time-frame of 1940s. Meanwhile his economy is running negative.
This scenario is not winnable, please redesign.
So your entire argument is basically
>Lol keynsianism is parasitism German btfo
Wew lad, levels of brainlet that shouldn't even be possible. First of all, plz prove your theories about Germany *needing* to invade other countries to keep itself afloat plz
>Germany never has any tensions with Soviet Union
You realize in our hypothetical, that doesn't happen right?
There is literally nothing to back up that claim except for "Suvorov" with his fake and edited quotes.
>why was army on the border of state that invaded almost every country in Europe and violated numerous treaties
>why did Stalin stationed his troops on the borders of his country instead of in middle of Siberia
>The whole other Italy
>France and their colonies
>plus Germany
>Couldn't take out Britain
bwahahahaha fucking Anglo delusion. Please tell me how you will invade mainland Europe with your total population and island economy please
Not him, but that last one is at the very least stupid. Poland and France showed that massing your army on the border and keeping it in one thick line with little in the way of reserves is terrible for defense.
Granted, that more points to extreme incompetence rather than "THEY WERE PLANNING TO ATTACK", but if the Soviets did something with a deeper defense, something with spreading their army out throughout the areas they seized from Poland in 1939, they would have held on much longer and not had those huge encirclements in the opening days of Barbarossa.
>Point out the fact that his theory is based on a priori assertions of historical memes no one takes seriously unless in extreme libertarian circles
>Wow nice argument
Yes i would think so
>fucking anglo delusion
He literally gave you exact numbers in his source
Read the PDF, nigger.www2.warwick.ac.uk
Mianland invasion would probably halt at Italy. The rest would be done with strategic bombardment until the Americans enter the war and just steamroller the Germans.
Actually he gave me a
>.uk source
Then acted like the Anglos were ever united enough to steamroll anything as if the identities of those in the empire and the US was united in total harmonious unison to invade Europe
user plz
>Mainland invasion
Wouldn't even begin in the first place
I'm just saying, the whole point of Cobra was that he was in the wrong.
Im sorry but you're not providing sources and he is.
Are you Hebrew?
>talking about lebensraum since 20s
>preemptive
Typical stormfag arguments, just call them a Jew.
>Lebensraum meant generplan ost meme
I hate liberals so much. It basically meant
>Give us back the land we had in Poland out East plz
It was not a German manifest destiny
top kek
love that movie
>let me make fun of your logical fallacy by committing a logical fallacy
Spotted the Juden
Except the sources he provided only that the British colonies oversaw a vast amount of GDP which is somewhat irrelevant when it comes to the British Empire as it's stretched all the way across the the world and was slowly breaking up?
Basically, if tensions with Russia hadn't lead to an invasion then The Allies and Axis would've just had a massive stalemate where France's border would become like hyper Atlantic Wall instead of being what it was. Plus by then the motivation to invade mainland Europe would be bunk.
Not me
>STILL ignoring the almost certainty of American involvement
>ignoring the war material production figures
>ignoring the unstable foundation of the German economy meaning a long Cold War is likely to lead to them collapsing.
>It was not a German manifest destiny
Yes it fucking was stormbrainlet. The concept of colonizing Germans in the East existed since Frederick the Great and the Partitions of Poland.
>almost certainty of American involvement
Literally how?
>Germany economy was unstable
Which you've yet to proven
>Ignoring economic PDF
Literally haven't
No, Generaplan Ost was a war doctrine that asserted that after the starvation of the Slavs from the brutal fighting on the eastern front, that should Germany be victorious Germans would be given land out east because so many people will have died in the conflict. You know, because both Germany and Russia employed scorched Earth and resource collectivization that gave priority to military units and not civilians?
It was a retarded plan though.
>from the brutal fighting
Yea, surely it was all just collateral damage (from both sides). No genocides or starving involved whatsoever.
Jesus, it's hillarious comparing these neo-nazi attempts at justifying Hitler within framework of modern humanist morals with the actual shit Germans did and planned when they were in power and didn't needed to justify shit.
They greatly underestimated the Russians and overestimated their success. It was a complete disaster before it was launched.
even before pearl harbor the US was on the cusp of intervening in europe on the basis of unrestricted submarine warfare and shipping lanes being attacked. they had started lend lease like months before pearl harbor, dumbass.
>No genocides or starving involved whatsoever.
Yup
>Jesus it's so weird seeing someone disagree with my a priori held beliefs
>I'm using modern humanist morals to justify ...
Hold on, what? I'm saying that Generplan Ost literally had millions of slavs killed because Germans didn't want to hurt the war effort and thus collectivized food to their military units. What about that strikes you as "humanist"? The Soviets employed same tactics ffs
The amount of looting, forced loans and huge ass slave camps enacted on the ocuppied countries should make it self-explanatory user.
The Soviets were not preparing for or ready for an attack in 1941. Not for another few years, at least.
The Germans, on the other hand, NEEDED to invade the Soviet Union in order to keep their war machine going with resources. Hitler wanted to destroy Communism and turn the USSR into German living space.
Fixed that image for you
I want to see a timeline where hitler attempts this and then fails spectacularly as "berlin mobile fortress" basically sinks into the boggy marshland that is a great deal of industrial germany.was built on.
>ITT wehraboos get BTFO
Go back to /pol/ you deluded fucks
>invades Poland
>invaded Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia
>invades Finland
>invades Bessarabia region of Romania
>carries out coup in Yugoslavia
>"REEEE GERMANY IS THE AGGRESSOR WE DINDU NUTHIN!! WE ARE INNOCENT VICTIM!! GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR OF SELF DEFENCE!!"
*Germany and its european axis allies carry out a pre-emptive strike*
>During their advance, they find massive soviet paratrooper stashes (ukrainians starved to death so the silk for these parashoots could be made, go look it up) and translation books from russian to german for the upcoming bolshevist invasion of germany and europe
The allied post-war (((narrative))) won't mention any of this
>ITT sovietboos get BTFO
Go back to /leftypol/ you deluded fucks
*revisionism intensifies*
le top kek funny meme le lololol XDDD Shadilay le praise le kek XDDDDD!!!
>No citations
>Generic post-war allied atrocity propaganda with no sources
>Out-of-context PR leaflet which the jews have told him was eeebul (nevermind the fact that ruthenians, russians et al were clearly aryans according to Reich legislation)
I bet you believe the "herrenrasse" thing was a valid concept in NS terminology too lol
Look at White Ruthenia/Belarius if you want to see a model of what would have become of russia in case of an axis victory.
The belarusians got their own parliament/state after their liberation from bolshevism. Both the hitler youth and other party organizations regularly conducted field trips and coorporated very closely with the new natsoc belarusian organizations there.
what the fuck is poland, estonia, latvia, lithuania, finland? They are the parts of Russian Empire, and Emperor did not allowed them to separate
>sign pact that lets soviets invade a bunch of countries
>soviets invade those places
>WTF ARE U DOING IT WAS JUST A PRANK BRO
>hatred of commies
>stupid
Hitler did many things wrong and stupidly but this is not one of them.
>The coup in Yogoslavia was communist
I'm sure the Yogoslav ROYAL GUARD would be fascinated to hear this
>During their advance, they find massive soviet paratrooper stashes
citation needed
>ukrainians starved to death so the silk for these parashoots could be made, go look it up
citation needed
>and translation books from russian to german for the upcoming bolshevist invasion of germany and europe
citation needed