Was Trianon justified?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_make_a_right
That's an elementary school logical fallacy please come back when you have an actual argument.

The Entente was better than Germany and need not stoop to its level.

I like how that chart is trying to suggest that Hungary losing all that land is just as "absurd" as Germany losing almost the same territory that Poland eventually gained after WWII.
The image was probably made before WWII but it's a bit awkward using it when you have the whole "Polish-Hungarian brotherhood".

The only "patchwork enclaves" are in Romania and Serbia.

The entire Hungarian population in Slovakia, Ukraine, and Northern Romania runs directly across the border and could have been included. This population -
excluding Szeklerland and Serbia - amounts to approximately 700,000 to 1 million ethnic Hungarians that could have been included without resorting to enclaves.

Like I said, excessively harsh.

>If you argue with the right to self-determination, then yes
nope, over a million hungarians ended up outside hungary in hungarian majority lands, they didn't have a right at self determination

Obviously it was too much and overly harsh, but it's not like all that land was 100% hungarian.

If they were, Slovakia, Slovenia, etc, wouldn't exist now.

Do you have a decent source for that, map-wise/census?

but they didn't stoop to Germany's level, that was my point. Brest-Litovsk was an insane dismantling of the Russian economy and any potential they had to recover from the war. Versailles has barely even close, and the Entente didn't even force most of it

well on one hand yes, borders should be drawn on ethnic lines, but on the other, history is also important because populations moved around a lot in wars, especially the great wars against the turks

you cant just have a mass of people move into a patch of land and then claim it for their own, so the argument is more complex than just whoever lives there should own it

i don't know if that was the case with hungary but ive heard that argument brought up

i.imgur.com/hTBSf8t.png

a quick google search is all it took, i cant even be fucked to save it

>Source: William Robert Shepherd, specialist in Latin-American history.

Also, the map isn't even part of "Shepherd, William. Historical Atlas. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 1911. " as claimed. It features no ethnic maps.

...

Source for the population numbers is:

Macartney, C. A. (1937). Hungary and her successors: The Treaty of Trianon and Its Consequences 1919–1937. Oxford University Press.

I agree that the Entente was not enforcing Versailles by 1932 (because the reparations were just intolerable). However it created a dangerous precedent. Once Hitler realized he could just not pay the reparations and station troops on Cologne, it encouraged him to be even more defiant of rhe Treaty.

A midler treaty but enforced more harshly (say, no reparations) would have been much better to secure peace.

its not about the territory its about purposely cutting off millions of ppl from their homeland, while saying self determination of nations, and its all gone now because they were either assimilated, driven out, or moved away

You posted the exact same map, retard.
The alleged author is a latin America historian, and the alleged source doesn't contain that map.

>Macartney, C. A. (1937). Hungary and her successors: The Treaty of Trianon and Its Consequences 1919–1937. Oxford University Press.

Which quotes William Robert Shepherd, who is not a specialist nor does the atlas supposedly containing this map actually contain it.

Surely the best way to secure peace would be to dismantle Germany.

it's an updated version you fucking nigger, the original is messy but factually consistent with the fresher version of the map. Literally just google Distribution of Races in Austria-Hungayr

Fact resistand turd

The borders would've looked even more fucked up.
Szeklerland was bullshit, though. I don't care how ridiculous the 'tail' would look, that should've 100% stayed with Hungary.

>Distribution of Races in Austria-Hungary 1911
>Source: The Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.

Except William R. Shepherd is a latin America expert that doesn't make ethnic maps. and the Historical Atlas of 1911 doesn't contain this map, or any ethnic maps.

>This autism
Please provide an alternative source or fuck off then.

>asking for a source is now autism

This often quoted picture is not a source. You are repeating myths and memes, and getting mad at being told so.

It doesn't quote Shepherd you lying sack of shit, you almost got away with it.

Yes, it does, it quotes this exact map that has no survey or polling behind it, just the picture.

Autist BTFO

ps://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&hl=en&id=Cr9nAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Shepherd

>Source for the population numbers is:
>Macartney, C. A. (1937). Hungary and her successors: The Treaty of Trianon and Its Consequences 1919–1937. Oxford University Press.

Show me where it quotes its sources, or the relevant research.
100% chance it can be traced to this meme map, since its the only one anyone ever quotes.

I have no further interest in spoon-feeding a confirmed liar.

Spoon feed? Prove me wrong by showing me where the source is.
I know where the source is. There is only ever one source, that meme map. There is no other source making such claims, so everyone either quotes the map, or quotes someone else who quotes the map.
Prove me wrong.

>Live under habsburg Imperialism
>Rebelled many times against Austrian rule
>Threted like an agressor state after WWI and get punished
No. WWII Hungary was rightful Hungary.
Actualy non of WWI agrement was justified but Lausanne. If Versailles, Sanint-Germain and Triannon agrements was like Lausanne, WWII did never happen.

Even if Hungary kept every single isolated Hungarian village they would still complain about Trianon being "harsh". Even more since those enclaves wouldn't have a land connection to the motherland and such a thing was already used by others as justification for war against Poland.

Hungarian nationalists of the early 20s century weren't liberals that cared about things such as "self-determination" of nations. To them every part of the former Kingdom was rightfully theirs. They didn't care about what some Slovak or Romanian peasant wanted. They wanted to keep as much territory as possible.That's why they occupied Carpathian Ruthenia when they had the chance and still wanted to occupy more land after 1941 even they didn't have a Hungarian majority at all.

>if we only take one town they will still complain, so we might as well take 2/3 of the country lel

Original source for this is the 1910 census of Austria-Hungary you autist

>Was Trianon justified?
Unironically yes. Might makes Right. Don't let anyone ever tell you anything else.

Nice strawman, here's mine

>we can't take all these huge non-Hungarian land because there's this one Hungarian town here and that village there

I'll remember that for the Mexican reconquista.

...

they should have let ethnic hungarian lands stay in hungary

but no point in keeping other ethnicities in against their will

Yes.

Hungarian-user. can you explain me why transilvania was always full of Hungarians?

between transilvania and hungary there is a lot of land, but it's way less populated by hungarians

yes

Wasn't Trianon an attempt at appeasing Romania, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia and not about punishing Hungary? France wanted these countries to act as a buffer against the SU, while strengthening its position in the region. Of course it's a different issue altogether that this caused the region to struggle economically, which later lead to german and italian trade agreements, which lead to them falling to or joining the axis later on.

Hungarians were originally nomads so they settled on the lowlands and mountain valleys. The towns and villages were established along major roads. This made them the prime target for every army passing through, like the mongols, turks, austrians etc.

In Transylvania in the only cultures accepted for military service were hungarians, germans and szekelys. This meant that other people were not conscripted into the army.

During the 200 years of turkish occupation this area was the primary place where armies clashed.

According to some sources romanians started moving in around 1270 in small numbers. They lived mainly in the mountains. Then around 1600 they became the majority. The austrian also tried to fill up the population after the turks were repelled.

On the other hand, as far as I know, in romanian education they are taught that it was always a mainly romanian land, since the roman times.

>The image was probably made before WWII but it's a bit awkward using it when you have the whole "Polish-Hungarian brotherhood".
lol hungarians hate slavs
unified romania did more to help poland and have good relations through their short history and they chose m*gyars instead as their ""friends"""

What's worse? Trianon or losing WC in 1954 without hope of ever winning it for real?

I think Hungary's 1939 borders are the fairest. Though they screwed that up with the whole war and Holocaust thing, so fuck 'em.

Funny how the Polish part of Germany actually became a part of Poland later...

>lol hungarians hate slavs
I don't think you know what you're talking about. They certainly don't act as if they hate Poland, there's mutual admiration and respect and they seem to believe it honestly.
And recently they've been quite friendly with Russia as well and to some extent even indirectly helping Russia against Ukraine with the minority issues.
Back during the Kosovo declaration of independence some extreme-right actually supported Hungary even though a few years back Hungary was against Serbia, so maybe indeed there was some questionable things here

About Romania helping Poland, while that was true the fact is unfortunately not very known in Poland. I think Romania has a huge problem with their PR.

>some extreme-right actually supported Hungary
I meant Serbia .

>Though they screwed that up with the whole war and Holocaust thing
to be fair most of the hungarian jews were living as late as spring 1944 but then Hitler went full autist and had them deported

Does anyone have that ethnic map of the Balkans/Hungary based on population density? It's similar to this

Svejk is anti-monarchist propaganda written by an anarchist manlet

Why were so many German enclaves split from Austria and given to the newly formed nation of Hungary? Why didn't the Hungarians respect their ethnic self-determination?

Yes

I don't know why Hungarians think they're actually entitled to those lands

>lol hungarians hate slavs
I dont think its that simple, in my opinion, Hungarians are awesome people, but horrible nation. They hate others simply because they want their territory.

Magyars sided with the wrong guys in fact they should blame Germans because they were used an example to warn them(Germans)

>According to some sources romanians started moving in around 1270 in small numbers. They lived mainly in the mountains. Then around 1600 they became the majority.

Fake news. There is absolutely no evidence of this.

On the contrary Romanians started moving OUT of Transylvania, Romanians who later formed Wallachia and Moldova.

Magyars fucked Austria-Hungary and were directly responsible for the empire being such a shitty fighting force in WW1.

It was a mistake in hindsight. That area could have been better control if it was maintained. And now look at the EU, trying to do away with the identities the great powers worked so hard to legitimize.

If they had just democratized Austria-Hungary they could have played the minorities off of eachother in elections and save millions in ethnic horseshit.

Nationalities have always confounded borders, they did then and they do now. Pointing out that Hungary was no less really any more sympathetic to neighbors and others is truthful but not really the whole picture. what hand where they dealt, after all?

>If you argue with the right to self-determination,

Here are some French-Hungarians plans.The black areas were 80-100% Hungarian, the dotted parts would had been up to voting. This would had been just, instead around 2 million people were trapped right next to the border (800k in Slovakia, 700k in Romania, 400k in Serbia, 150k in Sub-Carphatia), and 1 million other people in Szekelyland/Kolozsvar and other places.

Yes, its hard to draw just borders, but even with the dark areas in this pic, Hungary would had lost 50% of its territory and more than 1 million ethnic Hungarian. Even this would had been a tragedy, but at least somewhere fair.

source?

Because they were Svabs, who mostly had Hungarian mother tongue, and had autonomous rights.

>they still wanted more
desu those south-transylvanian parts, like arad had hungarian or german majority

plus source for that pic? I dont think WW2 Hungary would had been stupid enough to claim lands from Nazi Germany lol

It seems to be this
hunmagyar.org/tor/hungaria.htm#INTRODUCTION

Dacia fits modern day Trannsylvania, not Wallachia

>The Entente was better than Germany and need not stoop to its level.

Fuck off Wilson

Trianon was a formality all those territories were not held by Hungary anymore and they had no way of getting them back plus they were populated by majority non-hungarians (aside from certain areas)

Slovenia was not part of Hungary ya dumb shit, only a very insignificant (and poorest) region was, pic related.

>split from austria

they are or were swabians, settlers and not austrians
they considered themselfs hungarian, and many still live here

>abloo blooga goooa im a gypsy shitstain and dont like facts

eat shit and die, but before that, look at this, there was a census in 1910 so obviously its not hard to figure out ppl were using it to make maps

maps.hungaricana.hu/hu/HTITerkeptar/2748/view/?pg=0&bbox=-133,-4026,4062,-188

Thats a pretty weak argument with no justification. Its true that some towns had increased Hungarians in the 19th century, but it was true the other way around too. Most of the Hungarian population were cut off with no other ethnicity between them and the new borders, save for Szeklerland.

yeah obviously. hungarians invaded Europe and chimped out ever since they got here, and tried to magyarize entire nationalities out of existence. they also helped to start a war that turned the entire world into a shithole solely so that they could keep oppressing native European people.

>None of the Hitler autism
>Saved his country from Bela Kun's Red Terror
>Simply wanted to bring back the ethnic Hungarians into Hungary and defeat communism
>Opposed deportations of Jews, didn't hand a single one until Hitler had to stage a coup againdt him in 1944
Was Horty justified?

>no jews
>no swabians
>no gypsies

This is a language census, not an ethnic ne.

Meanwhile, Romania...
>join nazis
>asked to give clay to Hungary, do so
>asked to give clay to Bulgaria, do so
>asked to go die at Stalingrad, so so
>zero gains, only loses

about 400k jews were deported under him in 44
about 20k were expelled in 41 when german started killing jews in podolsk kamenyec

he was sitting tight with his personal army while the country was invaded in 1919
he introduced white terror, no better than the reds

he also lied in his memoirs, he was fiercly antisemitic, introducing anti jewish laws before shitler

he sent the 2nd hungarian army to its death, without winter clothing or efficient heavy weaponry against the red army in 41-42 while the proper army was sitting at home

a traitor and pussy ass bitch who should have been hanged, but he escaped to portugal

jews had no rights neither gypsies, it is the official maps of the ethnic census
there are germans and its on the map

gypsies are not native to europe, you need to go back to India, Ion

>ethnicity = language
What a stupid map.

the amount of gypsies in hungary is within a single percentage point of the amount in romania.

that's not what the map says you fucking idiot. it lists Croats and Serbs separately despite their common language, for example.

no Hungarian Jews were deported until after Germany stabbed Horthy in the back and occupied Hungary
he did nothing wrong

Actually Romania liberated Hungary from the communists in 1919 war, Horthy merely came after the Romanian withdrawal.

Ehm...
>FORCED to give land to Soviet Union
>FORCED to give land to Hungary
>FORCED to give lands to Bulgaria
>government collapses
>join nazis
>loose the war