Is this a pro liberty board...

/pol/ is evolving into something weird. Feels like a separate community entirely from the rest of the website.

At least it would be weaponized autism that would be used to spread liberty instead of "muh Jews, muh degeneracy" memes.

/pol/ is, largely, a leaderless cult. It's basically Scientology-tier, just without an organizational structure. The psychology is cult-like. The level of stormtardation is high. The level of discourse is low.
If you try to go against their hivemind, they generally just try to overwhelm you with numbers, persistence, and the Gish gallop. I've noticed that stormtards usually get BTFO pretty easily when they come to places like Veeky Forums where they can't just drown everybody by spamming hundreds of comments. But in safe spaces like /pol/, they can gang up on contradictory voices.

>not annoying autistic sperg lord libertarian
your ethos is fundamentally flawed but enjoy your first two years of college. once you see the real world you'll give this stupid shit up. seriously go to more parties with your college peers and stop posting here

(OP)
Burger here. I'm libertarian on some issues, not others.
I support the right to bear arms.
I oppose large-scale domestic government surveillance such as that practiced by the NSA.
I support legalizing all drugs.
I support getting government completely out of marriage. Neither straight nor gay nor any other kind of marriage should be recognized by the government.
I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion.
When it comes to social issues, I do not give the slightest shit what people do in their personal lives as long as it's consensual, and I strongly support freedom of speech. If you're a man and you want to fuck men, great. If you want to call people niggers on the internet, that's great too. I think that the culture war is mostly a battle between fools and other fools.
Unlike many libertarians, I support relatively tough border controls. I like the idea of open borders in theory, but I don't think it's practical.
Also, while I support capitalism, I also want relatively strong social safety nets. However, I think that welfare should be structured in a way that disincentivizes poor people from reproducing. Welfare should be something that helps you if you fall on hard times. However, it should NOT be something that helps economic failures reproduce their failure onto the rest of society. I think it would be good for society to help those who are going through hardship, but I don't think that society should subsidize people's attempts to multiply their genetic lines.
I support some level of universal health care.

Cont.
I support cutting the government involvement in education. The future of education is not in the classroom. Public education does play a useful role in turning idiots into people who are slightly less stupid, and in keeping teenagers out of trouble during their most hormonal phases. However, I'm sure there are more efficient ways to do this.
I support cutting the military budget and foreign commitments by a certain extent, but I need to think more about how this could be done without destabilizing the current world order too much.

See This is exactly what I meant. I like some stuff that Ron Paul says, but I disagree with him on other matters, just like I do with Milton. Paul spews pseudo-history by being, if I'm not mistaken, a Leeaboo Lost Causer and chalks almost every economic failure in the United States to "muh Federal Reserve." This is exactly what I mean by a "white-washed, easy to digest version of history."
This is exactly what /pol/ is. They always get demolished whenever they come here because they don't have their stormfag legions to spam "GOOD GOY" at everyone who shows skepticism at their brainlet-tier conception of history, the tactic they almost-exclusively rely on when they're in their safe space. They're essentially a spitting image of everything they claim to hate about the far left.

>right to bear arms
>against gov surveillance
>legalize drugs
>marriage rights for all
>pro choice
none of these things are specifically libertarian
their just smart people thoughts
libertadism is a dumb person idea when you get into what really makes it up

I'm a former libertarian.

The thing about libertarianism is that for libertarianism to work, you need an educated, virtuous population. Libertarianism won't work when you have "weed culture" and "slut pride walks".

But surely the opposite of liberty isn't the solution though. Just because we have "dude weed lmao"type of people and slut pride walks existing doesn't mean we should go full retard though. Do you want to go into the opposite of libertarianism and embrace authoritarianism?

it wont work cause its an intrinsically bankrupt ethos built on misunderstanding how government and economics works.
its not too perfect for real people

thinking that the only options are liberty or not liberty is a false dilemma
also i dont think the word liberty means what you think it means

I frankly don't know. Our elites are completely awful and contributed to the weed culture and the slut pride walks.

You are inherently giving up some freedom by choosing to live in a civilized and developed society. There has to be some balance.

I wouldn't consider the other user a libertarian since he doesn't think taxation is theft and want to abolish the fed.

Or maybe I should be more how you say, more specific? How about instead of the false dilemma of liberty or no liberty, why not just have a society based on constitutional governance and the rule of law and natural rights. We don't need to have slut walks or weed culture in this society but we don't need to live in a police state either. Maybe I should have been more clearer on that.

There are no natural rights, there are only rights that people decide to give themselves.

I disagree

>Weed culture

While I despise weed culture, libertarianism is not about what I like. The concept that the government shouldn't enforce morality is one strictly within libertarian tradition and we would be better off showing the differences and diversity within our society in public. That way, we might realize how different we all are.

If the general public can see a culture where people just want to sit inside and smoke weed all day, maybe they would start having second thoughts about giving them welfare. Maybe they would begin to understand that some people prefer things they do not. Isn't that a positive thing for libertarianism?

The taxation is theft argument never made much sense to me. Taxation is basically rent. Either both taxation and rent are theft, or neither is.

your buzzword lacks meaning
look at you supposed allies of liberty fighting over what it exactly means
its meaningless go find a real ethos to align yourself with
or better yet wait till youre not a college freshman and stop posting on Veeky Forums

Most self-proclaimed libertarians are tinfoil conspiracy nutjobs who adhere to loons like Alex Jones or Molyneux. It's a thin line from a libertarian to a full blown poltard.

That's your opinion. Being a burger we fought a revolution under the ideas of "natural rights" did we get those "natural rights" for slaves no we didn't give them those but speaking for the United States our ideas, not necessary ideas that really came into fruition, but our ideas were based on the thoughts of the Enlightenment. We managed to produce a society that might have never have worked out in the end but in the beginning we tried to make a country into an "empire of liberty" as what Thomas Jefferson envisioned. Now Jefferson might have a change of heart seeing how much the US has changed and seeing the emergence of weed culture and slut pride, etc.
But that all aside, if you don't believe in natural rights, then do you think that you would rather live under totalitarian values?

Not really. It's a thin line from a faux libertarian who was never really libertarian to begin with... to a full blown poltard. Actual libertarianism is essentially and fundamentally incompatible with alt-rightism.

>libertarianism only works if people aren't free to be what they want to be regarding personal liberty.

I don't think you understand what libertarianism is about, because you seem too collectivist to be one. Maybe the mainstream Republican party is more your speed?

Anyone who thinks that weed culture and slut walks are the biggest problem a libertarian society would have is probably looking at the matter from a biased angle, a culturally conservative angle to be precise.

Liberalism/libertarianism is not a divine law.
If left by themselves most people have such a poor education and culture that they will spend all their time on self-destructive behavior, they need someone ruling them. They need an aristocracy to rule and educate them.
The problem being, unfortunately, we don't have an elite capable of this.

>Says something you don't like or agree with
>Must mean I'm a college freshman
Everyone I don't agree with is just a college freshman guys. You don't have the right to opinion or dissenting though.

Economics is the least important part on this.

Cont of Religious people and hicks would be at least as big of a problem as weed smokers and slut walkers. Probably a bigger one, in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean. I never mentioned economics.

You quoted at least two different people.

I don't need an appeal to nature to appreciate liberty, nor do I need to believe in irrational things because murrican founding fathers did.

As I said, I'm a former libertarian.
And libertarianism is not moral nihilism. Libertarianism is about how you view the government.

Libertarianism and Communism are two sides of the same coin, both rely on altruistic humans to function as intended.
People always make bad decisions by accident or just because they care more about short term benefits, that undermines the competitive aspects of a free market. The government is not able to solve every problem in the world by central planning, and bureaucrats aren't clairvoyant superhumans, but the government can still make better decisions than people, a universal healthcare mandate(not single payer) is probably good because healthcare is objectively necessary and people are just too dumb to take care of themselves. Also central banks and monetary policy are good.
Ultimately I am somewhat sympathetic towards the moral case for libertarianism, it's still better than a phobia of banks and money.

Religion gives a code of ethics that is above "if it feels good do it". One of the American Founding Fathers pretty much said something like "This stuff only works with moral and religious people, not suitable for others"

So you went from libertarian to Bolshevik because you hated what people did with freedom?!

not everyone just you
and the rest of the libertarians in the world

Capitalism is a much better system than trying to find the perfect aristocracy that knows what's best for everyone and doesn't end up in a totalitarian hellhole.

OP samefag here. I was wrong. Fuck liberty, fuck freedom. I have nothing against the government. I love being spied on and being a patriotic citizen. I can't wait until the dissenters get a bullet to their head. I think militarized police aren't a bad thing. I think people complaining about their faggot rights are retarded and they should get out of this country if they hate the cops so much. Fuck Ron Paul and his faggot followers. I can't believe I use to follow lolbertarianism. People are too stupid to govern themselves, they need the state and a strong leader to defend American values and European values. Fuck your bill of rights and fuck your constitution. Fuck your rights.

>people are just too dumb to take care of themselves
Humanity survived thousands of years without healthcare. Humans are flawed but you seem to have a very nihilistic view of them

*state healthcare

As if you are implying that I am in college because I am a libertarian. Hey guess what faggot and to the OP who just posted this rant just now, I'm a libertarian deal with it. You don't agree with me, okay that's fine but have good arguments instead of "college freshmen lol you have no right to opinion."

>making a caricature out of other's opinions
That's a totalitarian way of arguing in itself.

If libertarianism leads to a worse society, why should I be a libertarian?

You actually sound exactly like a college freshman pretending to be an intellectual

Well them then faggots, do you like
>the government spying on you without a warrant
>Do you think that the Patriot Act has kept your safe?
>Do you think that national service to the state should be compulsory?
>Do you believe that the Drug War is a success and only leftists and lolbertarian losers would have a problem with it?
>Do you believe that people shouldn't have any rights at all because of morality or reasons you don't agree with that person?
>Do you believe that the War on Terrorism has been used to clamp down on civil liberties and erode some constitutional protections?
>Do you believe that those that protest are un-American patriots who should be shot and arrested for dissenting?
Shall I continue with more?

Humanity also lived to the ripe old age of "died in childbirth" or "died of dysentery".

Times change, what a human needs change, and social structures change to fit those needs.

Not having universal healthcare worked when people were content to die at the age of 65, now people want to live to 75 and beyond, you need more medical care, which can only be provided by the state on the scale required.

Right now the government picks up the tab on medicare for >65's who have not had proper medical care up to that point, and it is incredibly expensive to keep them alive because the doctors have to deal with many latent/chronic problems that were not picked up or not treated at all. The only way medicare can stay afloat is to deny care to anyone over 70, or extend medicare for everyone so preventive care can save people before they have to do expensive operations/take expensive drugs.

Stop believing your own caricatures m8. Hell, most modern socialists would agree with you on all of those.

If you're actually OP, you seem to be perceiving things unclearly because your perceptions are clouded by emotion. This thread has shown a range of views, I don't know why you are focusing on those which are radically opposed to yours and ignoring the people who partly agree with you.

Okay then, then why do I have a vibe from you people who I have a feeling you would all like if people like me were shot for dissenting against the state or rounded up and placed in a camp for unpatriotic thoughts. Why didn't you say anything before? Just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I am not pragmatic about the real world. I don't care if you all are libertarians just don't be authoritarian statists or tankies that think that so and so should be killed because I don't like them for their beliefs.

Not him, but who is "you people"? See: There is a range of opinion in this thread.

I can't tell you why you perceive certain vibes or have certain feeling user, maybe try a psychiatrist.

user, the majority of people on Veeky Forums are not authoritarian statists, tankies, or fascists. This isn't /pol/ or /leftypol/. If anything, I'd say the majority of people here are classical liberals or centrists.

That's not necessary. Sorry sometimes my emotions can cloud my judgment. Can I have a hug user?

its not an implication when i say it outright
>I'm a libertarian deal with it
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sure user, no hard feelings.

>Feelsbad

My main point though was that the argument "people are just too dumb to take care of themselves" is utter rubbish. I don't mind if there's some state healthcare and education but the government definitely can't make better decisions for individuals in most cases. With that reasoning you end up with totalitarian governments that control every aspect of your life because "they know better".

Thank you, faceless retard.

Absolute freedom is not a virtue.

True. Don't know why you attached a Milton Friedman photo to that, though.

Only anarcho-capitalists are true libertarians

As /pol/ drowns deeper and deeper in its own cultism, Veeky Forums has to take on more and more of the role of being a real politics discussion board.

People are bad at taking care of themselves because humans as a whole are catastrophically bad at assessing long term risk and consequences. We live in a world where a decision we make can have consequences for years and years down the line, which really wasn't the case before, either because we didn't live to see those consequences, or we didn't have the rights/means to make those decisions.

People are also horrible at utilizing/persevering a common good, like the environment, natural resources, or infrastructure, because they don't see the consequences of those actions, and without regulations, there's no good way to make them feel those consequences.

I am not saying the state should make decisions for individuals, I am saying all people should be required to spend a designated amount or percentage of income on healthcare they can choose for themselves(if poor people can't afford it, it would be subsidized). I am not advocating for single payer or even an Obamacare model.
If all people bought health insurance instead of buying more clothes or more food, there will be no pre-existing condition problem and the cost would be than now.

t.philosopher kings

I think the problem comes down to whether you believe 'libertarian regulations' can exist. The tragedy of the commons is a real thing (maybe oversold) and there needs to be ways to overcome these problems. However I would say things like common resource pools or some form of useage tax (congestion/externality tax) can mitigate these problems. Are these solutions 'libertarian'? Maybe. Are they more 'libertarian' than a blanket ban and government control of these things? Almost certainly.

No Veeky Forums is a reactionary monarchist and Catholic board.

>He hasn't taken the libertypill yet

This board is filled with freedom hating leftist faggots

I'm libertarian leaning, though I'm going to sleep now as I have a job.

Right.

People generally make good choices when they are presented with the complete and relevant information. This includes things like adding in the cost of externalities and risk. Problem is that it's is in the interests of other people to keep those costs hidden.

If people were told off the bat that skipping a checkup could cause a million dollar surgery later, or dumping chemicals would cost them billions to cleanup, or a ton of emitted carbon dioxide would require x dollars to undo, they'd be much less inclined to not skip annual checkups, dump chemicals, or roll coal.

A carbon tax on gasoline/coal would be one of the better examples of making externalities apparent, but "libertarians" in the US are almost universally opposed to a carbon tax.

Fuck off libertarianism is a meme.

Classical liberalism is the only logical path with strangling out the corporations.

>capitalism
>no force
b8

Capitalism at its core is a voluntary system, there is no force involved.

Capitalism uses the same force to get people off someone's property as tankies use to get hold of that same property. Capitalism developed and expanded through violence and subsists in its most extreme forms under the threat of starvation. I'm a social democrat so I don't advocate an anti capitalist stance, but you are naive as fuck.

I think some of the issues we have today is because politics is much more about philosophy than policy.

>Annual checkups

Sure, it could cause lots of money/time in the future. But that does not mean that someone can't have too many check-ups. Furthermore, I also don't think that because someone does get sick in old age, its because they didn't have enough check-ups when they were younger.

There is always a risk of getting sick, its a matter of whether the cost of insurance covers that risk. In fact, you can buy insurance that is priced correctly and still get sick. I don't think that the condition for health insurance working is that no one gets sick. If it was, why would people buy health insurance?

>Dumping chemicals

I believe that disposal of chemicals is under a regulatory framework. That is, you can either do it or you can't. In this circumstance, its the regulatory authority that is incorrectly measuring risk as they are the ones that determine which activities are 'too risky' to do. I am assuming that these companies are following the law (a questionable assumption) but I'm doing this to stay on topic and not drive the conversation about assessing risk off the cliff.

>Carbon Taxes.

Carbon taxes were proposed by Hayek with the concept of externalities defined by Coase so I disagree that libertarians cannot/ have no way to deal with these issues. Of course, the libertarian purity test can rear its head. I swear, if you get two libertarians in a room together, the only thing they will agree on is that there is one libertarian in the room

no, we're corporatist like the rest of Veeky Forums.

Stop being kiked OP. Get redpilled and start supporting National Socialism and fight the JQ!

This but unironically

>fascism and communism on the same side

Austrian """economics""" is even more retarded than Marxism.

Impressively ahistorical. The left-right spectrum is a matter of equality vs. hierarchy, dating back to the French Revolution.

t.krugmancuck

Veeky Forums isn't a single person.

>Libertarianism won't work when you have "weed culture" and "slut pride walks".
So Libertarianism won't work coz things you don't like. Lol okay

They are both pretty much the same thing in practice.

> the government can still make better decisions than people
The government is made up of people, what you are saying is that the people in government are somehow different than the rest of us or the process of voting for what is most popular ie. American Idol style while centrally planning with limited information will yield better results than people controlling the course of their lives peacefully and the spontaneous order of the market created by distributed information and preferences. That sounds really far-fetched to me.

This. /pol/ hasn't been the same since after the 2012 elections.

Libertarianism is merely the continuation of Liberalism, we were passed the torch and mantle of liberty.

Lmoa the fuck you on about? Places like /pol/ are always self cannibalizing and full of arguing over bullshit. Just search the archives and see there's tonnes of bait and other shit that gets posted.