Reading about the relationship between Crusaders and Byzantines, one thing I found interesting is that, the Crusaders thought the Greeks were effeminate and lived luxurious lives, while the Byzantines thought the Franks were brutes who only cared about war.
How did Byzantine culture changed to the point that it became pretty much the opposite from traditional Roman one?
That's actually pretty interesting, bumping for you op
Ryan Young
"The east" had always been viewed as more effete and decadent, even before the Romans conquered Greece and Syria (ironically the Greeks said the same about Persians and Egyptians) so by the time of the empire there was a distinct 'eastern' idea (see Augustus turning public opinion against Antony by saying he had gone oriental or Elagabalus's unpopularity)
Thomas Ward
you think the rich people and aristocracy in the WRE wouldn't call the crusaders violent brutes?
Brayden Edwards
>How did Byzantine culture changed to the point that it became pretty much the opposite from traditional Roman one? Some of it is cultural drift, but some I imagine is simply the difference between a heavily centralized and urbanized society of the empire and mostly feudal and rural societies of western Europe. I imagine the Franks would call the Romans of any era decadent.
Andrew Rogers
Romans were hardass men for a large part of their history. They were not softer than 12th century German/French/Norman nobles. They were as hard or harder.
Jack Nelson
Roman aristocrats had stopped being the core of the Roman army by the time of the empire, whereas the existence of feudal aristocracy was based upon military prowess
Ian Wright
Hardness and how it's defined is mostly in the eye of the beholder though. The Byzantines were no less effective motherfuckers on the battlefield than the Franks or Ancient Romans. The difference is that outside of war they had all the benefits of a well ordered state, whereas the Franks did not.
William Harris
And? The Romans were still hard men at times. Scipio was not softer than William the Conqueror.
David Hall
The comparison between western feudal nobles and eastern Byzantine nobles would show the westerners to be 'harder' even if the Byzantine army was still a powerful force on the battlefield
Lucas Edwards
I said nothing about effectiveness but culture. Marcus Aurelius had a very well ordered state. He was a hardass man, even if physically weak.
Eli Myers
You need to define 'hardness' then because it's a very ambiguous term
Julian Garcia
And? The Persian army was also strong.
Xavier Brown
That's not my point at all
Kayden Gutierrez
early form of orientalism
it's easy to see eastern cultures as decadent and static - draped in silks and fed on olives and grapes
this was projected onto all eastern cultures by westerners who knew nothing about these alien civilisations - the byzantines too were victims of it christian or not
Logan Young
Stoicism. Mental strength and an austere way of life.
Joseph Kelly
You have no point. You're just screeching about hardness as though it were an objective thing.
Adrian Brooks
Then 'the east' had been viewed as weak since Rome had become a player in the international field I'm not the one talking about hardness
Asher Wood
The Crusaders and the Byzantines did have contact during the Crusades. And they did leave records about what they thought of each other.
Evan Bennett
The Byzantines were no less stoic or austere than the Franks. They were just filthy stinking rich in comparison. A trait Romans of Aurelius' time also shared.
My mistake.
Lincoln King
The point is, the Byzantine Empire WAS Rome and they had an Eastern Culture. During the era of Trajan, there was no difference, for example. The most famous Stoics lived in the Eastern half.
Elijah Perry
There was a huge difference during the imperial age. See
Joshua Ward
The Byzantines did have different habits than the Franks.
Christian Myers
I never said otherwise.
Nicholas Robinson
The Crusader leaders were filthy rich. That's why they could spend a ton of money to save their souls in a Crusade. But they lived a more austere life than the Byzantines.
Christopher Morgan
>But they lived a more austere life than the Byzantines Based on what? The Franks' word?
Kevin Perez
The Byzantines words too.
Jayden Howard
>opposite from traditional Roman one? How traditional? The last time Romans were anything close to "brutes who only cared about war" was maybe the Punic wars.
Jaxson Long
Lol. Source that.
Adam Wood
Read any book about the Crusades? The Byzantines did document their distaste over the Franks.
Anthony Rodriguez
He's talking about the Roman military tradition and the warlike citizen-soldier society they had.
Noah Morales
>Byzantine Culture
Samuel Price
They documented their distaste for their barbaric and warlike ways. Barbaric and warlike are generally the opposite of stoic and austere. You're just conflating a bunch of different things to reinforce the premise that the Byzantines were somehow decadent as opposed to the proud and manly Franks.
Angel Cooper
Is this a real thing that happened? I know about the Nika riots but they don't really fit the description.
Cameron Miller
that had ended by the end of the second punic war
Christopher Diaz
t. gibbon its an exaggeration based on a variety of events
Oliver Hughes
Nah, it's just a meme.
Adam Long
They also have shown distaste for the simple ways of the Franks.
Asher Sanders
Cincinatus, Africanus and Aurelius had more in common with each other than either of them had with the Byzantines.
Ryan Parker
imagine being this stupid
Jose Myers
Africanus and Aurelius had similar lifestyles. The same is not true when comparing them to Byzantines.
Eli Cooper
cincinatus would have been diametrically opposed to everything involved with aurelius
Jacob Turner
How so? Civic minded Romans who lived austere lives when they could have luxury.
Brayden Sanchez
>emperor
Caleb Evans
And? They had similar lifestyles and Aurelius didn't abuse his power.
Blake Allen
That he kept his power would be incredibly odious to cinncinatus. The whole reason his story is remembered is that he stepped down willingly.
Owen Jackson
He was famous for saving Rome and not using the opportunity to get more power. Aurelius was also not someone who tried to gain more power for himself.
Brody Perez
He also famously willingly stepped down from power. Aurelius didn't. We don't know of spurius was going to overthrow the republic; it was simply the idea of one man having that much power that Cincinnatus was against
Brody Ross
Aurelius was held as the model emperor up until the empire's demise.
Ayden Anderson
The only major difference between Franks and the Byzantines was that Byzantines liked the bathe.
Jayden Cooper
OP here. The issue is not so much comparing Crusaders and Byzantines. The issue is that the Byzantine seemed to have a whole different culture than the Ancient Romans. While the Ancient Romans praised the rustic life, the Byzantines seemed to prefer a luxurious life.
Think about America. The American Founding Fathers had a very different outlook of life than the hippies of the 70's.
Brandon Ortiz
That's due to a variety of reasons First, roman political culture changed greatly after the crisis of the third century and the adoption of Christianity, becoming more outwardly authoritarian and focusing on the luxury and power of the emperor Second, the eastern half of the empire was always seen as wealthier and more decadent, and the byzantines only had that part Finally, the crusaders were also of Frankish and German extraction, which had an even bigger focus on military power
Dominic Jenkins
>The issue is that the Byzantine seemed to have a whole different culture than the Ancient Romans. While the Ancient Romans praised the rustic life, the Byzantines seemed to prefer a luxurious life. And we're all telling you that that's not particularly true.
The differences between ancient and medieval Romans are wast certainly, but the notion that Byzantines were especially opulent and luxurious is nonsense. The Christian morality which dominated the empire was essentially Stoic in nature, and Christian asceticism was held up as an ideal way of life.
Constantinople in 11th century was no more grandiose or opulent than Rome was in 2nd century.