The fourth crusade

Is it safe to say that the roman empire would have lasted to this very day if the fourth crusade didnt happen? lets just say the crusaders just die on the way to anatolia....

It is possible, but not really certain.

Fuck no, the ERE was on the decline before the Latins kicked their shit in

4th crusade was justified

Nationalism would've torn it apart probably

The Turks would have conquer them eventually.

Why did they call themselves latins?

they were on decline so many times, and so many times they came back. They were the purple fenix after all

they came from western europe (france, spain, italy) they were the succesors to the WRE so they were known as latins. In contraposition to the greeks in the ERE

Idk about "to this day", but certainly past 1453. My guess is that Napoleon conquers it and gives it some gay puppet state name like "the Hellenic Republic".

>they were the succesors to the WRE
The empire visigoths, lombards and ostrogoth raped and destroyed?

Did WRE name them as their succesor?

That is LARP on another level

It is thanks to the other Crusades that it survived in the first place

If the Greeks weren't such ungrateful bitches their shitty empire would have survived

>help somebody in prison usurp the throne and destabilize the realm
>usurper realizes he has no money
>so you conquer the city again and sack it

seems to me like the greedy crusaders were throwing a bitch fit because they didnt get rewarded for springing someone from jail.

i'm more convinced the earthquakes in roman syria did more damage then the 4rth crusade would ever do.

>Is it safe to say that the roman empire would have lasted to this very day if the fourth crusade didnt happen?

No.

> lets just say the crusaders just die on the way to anatolia....

How about Isaac II Angelos not being retarded and not betraying Frederick Barbarossa in favor of Saladin?

Because Frederick BTFO'd the Seljuk Turks so hard the Romans could have reconquered a good section of Anatolia had they been on good terms with the Germs.

Latin was also the lingua franca of Western Europe.

Also LARPing as Rome has always been popular.
See: Russia, HRE and even the Ottomans.

Also Greek vs Latin rite
>excommunicated crusaders are still crusaders
No because Turks would have taken Egypt instead
Also Bulgarian empire still would have pushed their shit in
Maybe if they mended the schism with the ecumenical patriarch recognising papal supremacy they would have survived

"We are descended from Latin-speaking peoples assimilated into the Roman empire. Since we come from different nations, we all speak the lingua franca of our region, latin. Therefore, as people who speak Latin to each other coming from a region where Latin is the lingua franca, we shall call ourselves Latins."

Honestly depends. The Angelos dynasty was possibly the worst dynasty in all of Byzantium's history. Keeping them in power might have let them screw it up for themselves.

Explain.

Quite unlikely, Venice and the other Italian cities was already devastating Byzantium's economy before the fourth crusade. I can't see them being able to compete in the long run.

Also KARA BOGA etc.

Quads confirm absolute and undeniable truth

That was hardly insurmountable. The Komnenoi did a great job of wrestling the trade control from the Italians until internal strife fucked it up. That can easily be done again.

True for anyone except Venice, being in the position of a vassal state with enormous privileges granted from the chrysobull of 1082.
Also you seem to think that the revocation of those concessions will end in anything but costantinople sacked.

I'm not saying they could just kick the Italians out in one swoop. I'm saying that given time and stability the empire would naturally push the Italians out. Like the Komnenoi were doing.

It was an event of macro-historical importance, so it's hard to presume how things would play out. They would certainly be in a better position.
However, keep in mind that even after Paleologian restoration Byzantine Empire was still a powerful state, far from being doomed. Yet it didn't recover, main reasons being internal instability.

They just had the Komnenian restoration however, the Empire stood quite strong by the time of the fourth crusade.

This is the main factor to keep in mind though, because even if it had survived with pre-fourth crusade borders that would mean that they'd have to deal with the same Balkans-nationalism that fucked the Turks. I believe the empire could have survived into the modern age, but it most likely would only exist of modern day Greece, Trace and the western Anatolian coast. It would also probably become a republic or at least a constitutional monarchy somewhere in the 19th or 20th century, as was the fate of all European monarchies.

Fuck off the visigoth were legitimate guardianes of Hispania and southern gaul, as they were designated so by the western romans, Also they were somewhat romanised and a tiny ruling class un a vastly romanised territory like Hispania was.

And you could say that the french were yo by some extend, highly romanised society controled by barbarians (legitimated by the pope). The Italians stopped being romans when the lonbards took over

What are the first crusades ?

When the Crusaders came in the Turks had already taken Nicea and were at the gates of Constantinople it is thanks to them that their effeminante Cuckpire lasted a few centuries more

they didn't

Keep in mind that Serbia national emblem is the dual headed eagle and they keep using the byzantine shield

>Why would they call it the latin empire themselfs???

Genoa was great allies tho

Latins got raped by germanics and dont exist anymore
>visigoth were legitimate guardianes of Hispania and southern gaul, as they were designated so by the western romans,
They werent, they just invaded and contribute to the fall of WRE

Why are you making excuses?

Its like you havent read their history, i dont understand how can you say they were guardians, they are just raped, destroyed and pillaged

Refrain from posting

>What are foederatii
>Who helped Aecio against the huns in the catalaunic fields battle?


Let me guess, the eternal german or the eternal anglo?

Lotsa people adopted Byzantine symbols. That doesn't mean they nationally identify with them. Had the Byzantines survived it's likely these peoples would develop their national identity in opposition to the empire, like they did with the Turks.

Cease your faggotry plz

>>Who helped Aecio against the huns in the catalaunic fields battle?
I always knew the Huns were fucking templars.

They all hated rome, hynd were just a common enemy

In the end, most germanics tribes invaded WRE provinces
Stop being idiot

>Visigoths are enemies of the romans, but also enemies of the huns
>Hey we dont have to kill eachother, you can come in if you help us in hispania against the suebi and the vandals
>ok.jpg
>Be a foederati for a couple of decades
>Help them hold gaul and hispania
>Help them against the huns
>They keep getting weak, eventually collapses
>Hey I could take this lands, I dont have to be a police anymore
>"""""""""Invaded"""""""""

Stop using my name

Holy shit mods do something

I read that when they sacked rome they went and settled in hispania

WRE never gave them anything, if they did, they were forced as they didnt want another sack

Are you a roman fan?

Because if you do then you are pretty shit because you are making excuses for the people that helped destroy rome

You are so pathetic

What rule am i breaking?

Stealing other people's names.

By being an insufferable faggot

>They just had the Komnenian restoration

No they didn't, they really were the purple phoenix, and what a rollercoaster it was.

If we start from the very beginning:
-Decline: Dislocation of the west
-Restoration: Reconquest of Italy and the maghreb up to:
-Decline: up to the low point of the Sassanid invasion
-Restoration: Heraclius' Reconquest up to:
-Decline: due to Arab and Bulgarian conquests
-Restoration : Reconquests of the Xth century and Basil II, up to:
-Decline: End of the Macedonian dynasty and Seljuk invasions
-Restoration; Komnenian dynasty and first crusades up to:
-Decline; Angelos dynasty and 1204
-Restoration; Paleologos Renaissance up to;
-Decline: Rise of the house of Osman, final destruction of the Roman Empire, sale of the title of Roman Emperor to the French King.

Why butthurt people opt to use username and post as me?
Mad

How so? The Roman people of the Empire had been moved around so much, they couldn't claim to be anything other than Roman. Who cares about your slavic origin if you have been sent to repopulate and intermix with the locals at all four corners of the empire. Only the bulgarians and the Armenians could have claimed to be their own nation, independent from the Roman melting pot.

so what? they ended up in good terms
>I give you land if you stop fucking me
>ok

Absolutely not. The Angeloi had already run it into the ground.

Suuure they could. There were a ton of different ethnicities in the empire besides the Greco-Roman core. All the people besides Greeks living on the Balkans now, they never defined themselves as Roman.

To this day? No, too many variables.

It certainly could've lasted a lot longer than it did, though. But, it probably would've fallen to the Turks at some point.

That's my point, there were so many displacements of populations and ethnic intermingling in the empire that couldn't identify as much more than Roman as a whole. Do you really think a Cappadocian nationalist movement could have seen the light? A galatian nationalist movement? I heavily doubt it. Name one region of the Empire in 1025, excluding Bulgaria and the Serbian and Croat vassals, which could have possibly pushed for independence on a nationalistic standpoint in the future.

Despot of morea is Prussia 2.0 with Turks

Just a reminder that the Ottoman empire was destroyed by a rebellion by the Turks. Nationalism can manifest itself in all sorts of ways.

Difference would be in my opinion that few people viewed themselves as Ottomans, whereas the "Roman" identity persevered to a greater extent after the fall of both west and east.

In addition, it's not as if the Turkish Republic seceeded from the Ottoman Empire, it was more of a change of government type than anything, they didn't give or take any territory.

>Difference would be in my opinion that few people viewed themselves as Ottomans
I'm not sure how true that is. In any case it would cease being an empire and live on as just another city state.

Sure, but we are considering no 1204 crusade here, so city state may be pushing it a bit. If they somehow managed to survive a Bulgarian invasion or a unified Turkish attack without crusader assistance they may indeed have become a Roman Republic, but without actually being conquered in the first place, I doubt they would have needed the neo Hellene movement of the XIXth century to find a new national identity. I never get tired of the Roman Islander story of the first world war, I think it perfectly illustrates the ongoing identity.

"City" was my mistake, I meant to say nation state.

the angeloi would have triggered a civil war eventually

I wonder how different history would be if they allied with Barbarossa. Given their conditions, they should have tried to get the most powerful monarch of their time in their side.

The byzantines were the retards of their time too, thats why they never got powerful alliances, instead they had civil wars, they are more interesting than going defense turtle mod for over 4 centuries

Fuck are you talking about, the Byzantines had alliances coming out the ass.

Name 2 that were somewhat powerful, not shit like Georgia

All the crusades; they cried for anglo german french hungarian italian sicilian help, because they couldnt handle a bunch of steppe niggers

Thats literally 1 War allies, the rest of the time they didnt care about each other bussiness

The Rus, the Mongols, and prior to Barbarossa the Holy Roman Empire.

Let me say what could save Byzantium.

* Anti-decadence law - Nobles will have to become farmers and soldiers. True Romans should have a simple live. If you call yourself Roman live like a Roman not like a Persian. Create high taxes on luxurious goods. Decadent habits will lead to a loss of status.

* Recreate the Senate and the old offices of the Republic

because Catholicism was called latin christianity in medieval times

Medieval Georgia was actually really powerful, easily more so than a mid tier Euro power like England or Hungary.

> not shit like Georgia

You mean the Georgia that repeatedly BTFO'd the same Seljuks that BTFO'd the Byzantines lol?

The Georgia that even the damn Ilkhanate could not fully pacify?

Don't tell anyone to refrain from posting. You'd think after the 100th thread with everyone calling you a retard, you'd stop posting. You're one of the most famous shitposters on the board, and everyone hates you.

>responding to Dominican

>Anti-decadence law - Nobles will have to become farmers and soldiers.
They did this under the thematic system and various land reforms, also the nobles tend to rebel

>* Recreate the Senate and the old offices of the Republic


There was technically a senate even into the dying days of the empire.