Living after the Roman empire

What would it be like living as a Roman in the western roman empire immediately after its fall? I'm imagining a post-apocalyptic type scenario.

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Watching your wife and daughter getting raped by otrogoths and visigoths

Inb4

>they dindu nuthing, they were goods bois, they loved rome and its people

> a post-apocalyptic type scenario.
Thats bullshit. For the average Roman not much changed (or better, it depends where he lived; i think you mean Italian in this context).
The living conditions were not different to what the generation before and after were used to. Italy only really was hit hard in the Gothic Wars some decades later.

> I'm imagining a post-apocalyptic type scenario.

lol no, the Germanics formed up large and organized kingdoms and left the Roman civilian world largely intact.

Hell, the Ostrogoths did not even dissolve the Roman Senate.

That's right, the Roman Senate still remained active, with senators, well into the late 500s.

>I'm imagining a post-apocalyptic type scenario.
Rome didnt fall in a day. This took decades, centuries. The power structure was replaced with another and thing went on as usuall. For most people, it wouldnt be much different, but shit degraded over centuries and we ended up with the dark ages.

gaul was a disaster that place was like the apocalypse
however they couldnt keep doing this because their people are literally in tow with the army they stopped in places like africa and iberia and just divereted the imperial money to themselves

So would what I'm imagining be more likely a Century later during the Gothic Wars or the Lombard invasion?

So how they lost knowledge, stopped living palaces and started living in fortifications?

They obviously destroyed all schools, libraries, scientists, philosophers, historians, etc

>They obviously destroyed all schools, libraries, scientists, philosophers, historians, etc
It wasn't a sudden and total collapse, just a gradual descent into the middle ages. Some post-roman kingdoms tried to preserve what they could from Rome.

>post-roman kingdoms tried to preserve what they could from Rome.
They realized their mistake too late

by post-apocalypitc scenario I mean't something more like- single person trying to survive, migrating, fighting, etc. Where might they go, who might they encounter, etc

Bump

Basically.

People seem to think that the end of the Roman empire was like a wave of death that everybody fled from and left the land a scorched wasteland settled by savages..

Like the other guy said, the life of the average citizen barely even noticed the difference. It was a glorified change of management. The guy who came by to collect taxes was probably a different guy than you were used to seeing but that's basically it.

Immediately following the Ostrogothic take over of Italy, they ostensibly ruled in the name of the Eastern Emperor, though they were really much more autonomous than that.

But life hardly changed until Justinian sent Belisarius to retake Italy. That war caused a great deal of damage and eventual depopulation of Italy, giving way to Lombard settlement.

No. There were never a post-apocalyptic feel to european society.

>depopulation of Italy
where did everyone go?
Also if the ostrogoths ruled in the name of the eastern empire, why did he feel the need to take it back? Was it just the fact that it was under 'barbarian' rule?

That's nonsense on so many levels. First off, survival is always easier in groups. Secondly, the fall of Rome didn't lead to a stateless vacuum but was just the supplanting of the decaying roman state with germanic ones.

>depopulation of Italy,

They died, the Eastern Romans/Byzantines waged a total war, destroying the infrastructure in the hopes of forcing the Italians to surrender. It worked, but the resulting famines killed a huge amount of the population.

>Where did they all go

Many died in the wars and then the plague if Justinian hit all around the same time

>Why did he feel the need to take it back

Look up Theodoric the great, basically this man single handidly kept society together after the Western empire "fell". After he died his successors didn't really want to be subservient to the east. And then Justinian took advantage

Go away

Basically shit was great when the Ostrogoths were led by Theodoric because he was a romaboo and actually a pretty good statesman.

Once he died, his successors just didn't have the gravitas to balance the kingdom anymore and dynastic problems led to Justinian attempting to take over.

>It behoves us, most clement Emperor, to seek for peace, since there are no causes for anger between us. [...] Our royalty is an imitation of yours, modelled on your good purpose, a copy of the only Empire; and insofar as we follow you do we excel all other nations. Often you have exhorted me to love the senate, to accept cordially the laws of past emperors, to join together in one all the members of Italy. [...] There is moreover that noble sentiment, love for the city of Rome, from which two princes, both of whom govern in her name, should never be disjoined."Letter of Theoderic to Anastasius
Cassiodorus,VariaeI.1

There was no depopulation or replacement you utter fucking moron.

Not sure if this is sincere or not. If so, good bait.

Sounds like a great guy!
Then pray tell us what do you think really happened?

You're the fucking moron, the Gothic wars and the plague of justinian were absolutely devasting to Italy and weakened both the Goths and the Byzantines to the point the Lombards practically strolled in.

I didn't say there was a replacement, there was never enough Lombards to significantly affect the gene pool of the peninsula. That doesn't mean there wasn't a depopulation.

Fuck right off

There is no genetic evidence for any depopulation or population replacement. Sorry to shatter your fantasies.

>i can't read: the post

So why did the Lombards enter and why were neither party aware or able to do anything? Did anyone else try anything at this time or just the Lombards?

As said the wars and the plague of justinian were just devastating for both sides and the urban population of both Italy and the empire at large. It's estimated the Byzantine empire lost about 25% of its total population because of the plague alone.

The Lombards originally came from the northern germany/lower Scandinavia area and migrated south along with the rest of the migrators. Originally they tried to settle around Austria but wars with other tribes were taking their toll so the Lombards decided to move south and would eventually settle in Northern Italy almost completely unopposed

The Lombards were just migrating from Austria. They formed an alliance with the Avars, who were in war against the East at the time, to defeat the Gepids, and after that was done they just went further south to Italy. But the East wasn't just at war with the Avars, but with Persia as well. They had no troops to spare to reinforce the garrisons in Italy. The most that could be done, which was done by Emperor Maurice, was to change the government of Italy from normal province into the exarchate. which was basically a military government with the exarch having a lot of powers and answering to no one but the emperor. That helped, but in the end it was still not enough.

>Also if the ostrogoths ruled in the name of the eastern empire, why did he feel the need to take it back?
Because the 'ruled in the name of the ERE' was just a meaningless formality that Odoacer used to magic away ERE's declaration of war against his usurpation. The ERE played along for a time as they were far to busy with pressing concerns elsewhere to divert troops to an italian campaign.

Wow, did the war really last 2 centuries?

>as a child love the arms, conflicts and armor of Imperial Rome and medieval europe
>now as an adult want to learn much more about "the dark ages" and Rome of byzantium and late western empire

Any books to recommend?

And while all this was going on the real apocalypse, the Mongols were invading.
Did the Roman empires lose much land to them and do we know what the Romans thought of the Mongols?

"Empires and Barbarians-Migration, Development and the Birth of Europe". 643 pages
[spoiler]docdroid.net/n1pygNq/pet...-2009.pdf.html[/spoiler]

It's sincere. European society wasn't in a state of post-apocalypse after the fall of the WRE. There was no power-vacuum as the person who ended the WRE just took up the position of ruler of Italy.

The Secret History by Procopius seems like a good read allthough I haven't checked it out myself.
As I understand it it's basically Procopius giving us every bit of contemporary gossip and propaganda against Justinian and Theodora.
I'd also strongly recommend the History of Byzantium-podcast. It's fucking great!
thehistoryofbyzantium.com

Good

user, Genghis Khan and the Mongol invasions aren't until the 1200s . . .

Have you ever read a book before?

>European society wasn't in a state of post-apocalypse after the fall of the WRE.

that's because it was in a state of post apocalypse well before it actually fell.

The government was powerless. Local landlords ruled, communication and trade were down, devastation from past wars and pests still lingered. Arts and sciences were lost.

Oops, my bad. I mean't the Huns.

Nope, the Huns had already fallen apart by then. The biggest threat the Eastern Empire, in terms of barbarian steppe people, were the Avars, the Slavs and the Bulgarians. But even they were relatively minor since in 600, Islam comes on the scene and they become the primary enemies of the empire.

Replace Mongols with Avars in that case.

The Avar invasions in the Balkans and Greece were pretty horrible, On one occasion they had IIRC, eight thousand prisoners to ransom to the empire, but Emperor Maurice refused and they were all executed. And with the focus on the eastern frontiers of the empire, first against Persia, then against Islam, the Balkans were largely ignored and wouldn't be reconquered until the reign of Basil II in about the year 1000. The Avars and the Slaves got as far down as the Peloponnese and were making permanent settlements there.

So are the people in this thread denying the catastrophic situation in Europe during the decline of the Roman Empire just larpers who want to propagate the idea that Germanic barbarians were good civilized boys who dindu nuffin?

Romans deserved everything after betraying Stilicho.

> The Avars and the SlaVS got as far down as the Peloponnese and were making permanent settlements there.

But then everything changed when the Croat nation attacked;

"Those same Croats have come and sought Heraclius, the Emperor, before the Serbs seeking protection from that same emperor Heraclius, and this at a time when the Avars defeated and expelled Romans from these regions... ..."because they were moved from Rome to this region, I think of those who are now called Croatia and Serbia. These are the same Romans, expelled by the Avars in the era of the same emperor Byzantine Heraclius, and their lands remained desolate. On the orders of the Emperor Heraclius, these same Croats defeated and expelled the Avars from those countries, with the permission of the Emperor Heraclius, they were settled in the same country of the Avars, where they now live." - Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos in his work De Administrando Imperio

"Then the Avars, seeing that this is the best country, they settled in it. But, the Croats, who at that time lived behind Bagibareje, where they are now Bjelohrvati (Belohrobatoi)(White Croats/ White Croatia)... Of them(the Croats), a tribe separated, led by a bloodline of five brothers; Klukas, Lobel, Kosjen , Mouh and Hrobatos and two sisters, Tuga and Buga, came with their people to Dalmatia and found the Avars as masters of the country. They fought each other for several years, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and forced the rest into submission. And so since that time the country was occupied by Croats and in Croatia (Hrobatia) there are still descendants of the Avars, and they are recognized as Avars." - Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos in his work De Administrando Imperio

The Baths and Aquaducts continue to work

Most of the ruling Roman Elite/Aristocracy joins the new Barbarians.

Latin is still the common language.

Roman law still applies to you.

The conquerors were Christians.

In many cases the Roman population just rolled with it.

>Living in fortifications

Around the time the Vikings showed up and the Carolingian Empire dissolved. 9th/10th century really and in the case of England only in the 11th.

The schools, libraries and all that jazz got rekt pretty hard during the Crisis of the Third Century. By the time of the fall in 476 Western Romans hadn't had access to a lot of work for decades.

You should read up on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boethius he was an interesting guy who tried to salvage what was left.

A lot of people don't seem to grasp that the Roman Empire practically ceased to exist in the third century.

The Western half of the Roman Empire afterward was just a shitshow. It was poor, illiterate, badly governed and hadn't produced any novel technology or science.

The fact that a bunch of savages were able to overthrow it in its terminal state isn't the worst thing about it.

>Post-apocalypsm =/= societal decline.
People still had law and institutions. It's just that they were much weaker than at the empire's zenith.

>there was never enough Lombards to significantly affect the gene pool of the peninsula
can you explain this?

do you know how stupid sound this?
do you think they were 5000 people?

at minimum they were 50,000 people
why you are in such denial? pic related

italian are mixed people between germanics, latin and greeks

deal with it

Depends on where you were. In Italy, not much changed for a generation. In Britain, shit had already hit the fan a generation ago.

Do you know how many people you would actually need to make any kind of significant shift in the genetic makeup of a population?

Why am I asking obviously you don't.

>They obviously destroyed all schools, libraries, scientists, philosophers, historians, etc
Christians had already done all that by the time the Empire collapsed