*destroys Christendom*

the leeaboo racist is also a prod

imagine my shock

what is this about selling free passes into heaven? i know catholics also excommunicated people, but that's another level of retardation.

Protestant and proud of it you fucking nigger.

>when you accuse the Jews of being greedy fucks and then resort to this to raise money

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

They also sent crusaders to kill christians

youtube.com/watch?v=JlbmIMbKZa4

Rather shift to predestination belief and having a good rich life as a sign of being saved.
This made money almost literally a god and since the more wealth you acquired the more chances there are that you are chosen. So there are more reasons to put money not into more pleasures but to make money. To invest, thus - capitalism.

Causa Sui, autopoesis.
Reminds about something?

>some old guy says he can literally talk to god
>need beads in order to pray
>need to pray to Mary before Jesus
>need to pray to the other saints
>excommunicating people they don't like
>having the power to excommunicate at all
>indulgences

why are people catholic, again?

An indulgence is not a "free pass to heaven." It only remits the punishment to be undergone in purgatory. Salvation in heaven is attained by being a baptized Christian in a state of grace, as evidenced by strong faith and the performance of good works.

Thats not the faith of Abraham, so anyone practicing it is not saved.

didn't catholics just make up purgatory?

So? I was talking about roots of capitalism.

>catholics invent purgatory just to sell passes out of it

The Catholic Church can "invent" nothing because it is the soul source of the eternal truths to salvation. Our Lord himself said this when he gave Peter to keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

sure thing, gotta pay off those sins somehow, right?

Catholic arrogance at its finest. The Catholic Church promises far more than it can deliver.

The chinkcartoon poster is also a retarded faggot, imagine my shock.

don't forget that Jesus can't forgive you, a catholic priest has to forgive you first. after you pay him, of course.

>the Venetians (with their LONG history of antagonism with the Byzantine Empire) are the Papacy
>what is the Papacy of Auvignon
>what were the French Wars of Religion
>what is the Thirty Years' War
>doesn't even mention that Luther was a shit reformer within the Church and just gave up

Pathetic.

>I understand one thing but not anything resembling causality.
How are you even alive, honestly?

There is nothing wrong with selling indulgences. Good deeds, like giving money to the church, get you to heaven. Simple.

wow it's another thread about Americans who know literally not a single thing about European protestantism complaining about it because they think everybody besides their ridiculously capitalist and religious society is also abusing the masses and their wallets by turning religion into bussines.

Anyway, I've never understood why you people even fight over such abstract concepts as this. Religion isn't supposed to be about who believes in a god of your choice the right way or who believes the most. It's about passing down knowledge, keeping people humble, making sure they have some sort of moral compass even though religion isn't always a necessity for this and giving them something to believe in overall because us humans are such restless creatures and we just don't know enough about how our brains work to actually calm down.

I am personally not a religious person but even I know this much because I'm not a fucking retard who misses the point because of being too afraid to actually think the scary stuff through in my head

and yes, I am an asshole with too big of an ego but at least I'm not missing the point in one of the central pieces in human existence

>It's another thread to fight over who is the true follower of an invention of the gnostics that got judaized and thus became a new hip religion.
>inb4 no muh jeebus existed.

you werent even christian to begin with

>Love your enemies
>you serpents, you brood of vipers

If you look at most of this, few of the arguments actually delve into theology; most people just use Protestant/Catholic as another facet of the cultural divide between North/South, Germanic/Latin.

>muh rational middle ground
Off yourself

re Prager: The left has failed to detect 3 evils in our time

>Nazism

>Communism

>Radical Islamism

All three are going to eventually consume Europe, whereas in the USA the Christians are the only people who detected these evils, and destroyed them.

Nazism.

Communism

And radical Islamic terrorism.

Anyone who thinks we can have a society without Christian values is stupid at this point.

Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can't call them out for what they are.

Right? My Catholic brethren?

Get back to the Vatican. There are little boys buttholes that are yet to be molested.

>Breitbart

>a white man in the American South is a Protestant
Wow holy shit

>Martin Luther just wanted to make the Bible readable for everybody by translate it and print it
>He didn't wanted to cause a fucking schism

going to a Lutheran Mass for the first time today, lads.
just got enough of bowing before the Pope.

I haven't done this before because my hometown didn't had a traditional protestant church

He did us all a favour breaking the earthly power of the vatican.

>The past several centuries were nothing but apostasy! I'm the first one between Jesus's death and now to get it right

t. Muhammad, Smith, Luther, Eddy, list goes on and on

He did nothing wrong, blacks deserve civil rights.

No great loss. Europe was already rendered a wasteland by Christianity. At least Luther helped bring about the conditions for us to start emerging from the hebrew dark ages.

>dark ages

>Whig history

Read a book

Didn't christians love their stained glass because most of them were only capable of understanding picture books?

I read plenty, deal with it.

>I read plenty

I mean you should read actual peer reviewed academia. Not someone who made their living pandering to angst ridden adolescents who think good rhetoric equals good argumentation like the nu atheist

Even the most secular historians, and polemicists that aren't quacks, concede that Christianity did far more for preserving and advancing the western world than it harmed

lmao, "peer reviewed academia", yeah thanks but no thanks. Forgive me if I don't worship at the church of 21st c. American liberal arts academia.

I read primary source material from the pre-Christian world. Then, I encounter various types of Christians and converse with them. Therefore, I obviously have an extremely low opinion of Christianity and understand that Western faith in hebrew mythology is a massive step backwards from the works of people like Plato and Aristotle, and subsequent philosophical movements like Stoicism which clearly inherited their metaphysics from those works.

Christianity represents deep spiritual and intellectual decline. It's not like it reduced Europeans to gibbering retards, obviously, but it did create a permanent limitation on our ability to grasp the truth and be correct in our understanding of reality.

*near permanent limitation, rather, as we are obviously recovering from the damage done by hebrew mythology and its related institutions

He allowed usury. Any talk against kikes is moot when Protestants are no better than Jews.

If Greek philosophy was superior, why did they embrace Christianity so quickly?

Easier to maintain control over people with one all powerful god.

They didn't, that's a meme that has so many holes it's difficult to know where to being. Also, there wasn't some single "Church of Plato and Aristotle" that had universal membership and was someone proven to be wrong by a hebrew demigod.

If that were true, we would expect the nobility to have imposed it on the common people but what actually happened was that Christianity spread from the bottom of society to the top.

>a meme
then what christian army was it that conquered greece and forced them to abandon their great philosophical tradition and embrace jesus?

But that's just a Christan narrative myth. Elite's adopted it for the reasons I already stated. Rome found monotheism to be more useful for justifying their power over commoners and that's exactly what happened. IN fact early Christianity was far more different to the one were familiar with precisely because it was "Romanized" by the empire.

It's a meme because there wasn't a great clash of two unified intellectual traditions where Christianity was proven to correct. Such a thing would actually be impossible, anyway, because Christianity is false and has actually divorced itself from philosophical tradition because it involves faith.

Rather, you have savages and various other commoners who surrendered their reason to faith in hebrew mythology, and over the course of a millennium they multiplied and subjugated much of Europe.

Whether you believe this narrative or not, it still remains that generations and generations of Classical people were born, raised, and died without accepting the supposed teachings of a hebrew demigod. You are trying to discredit ancient people with the beliefs of later people who existed long after their death. It's a fraudulent argument made in bad faith in order to avoid the real topic, which is a discussion and comparison of the teachings themselves.

We are talking about the Greeks specifically who converted centuries before Rome and it is not a myth that the early church was composed predominantly of common folk.

The early church yes. That corroborates with what I've already said about the early Christianity being different to the one we know today because elites profoundly changed it to suit them better.

christianity was proven to be superior because the greeks themselves preferred it to their own philosophy. christ himself persuaded the greeks and won their hearts with his words nobody forced them to convert.

What does that have to do with the Greeks abandoning their pagan ways for the light of Christ?

You debate like a Hebrew.

>Rome found monotheism to be more useful for justifying their power over commoners
lmao no, not at all
what's easier?
>okay pray to whatever gods you have just honor the Emperor, who is a god
or
>we're going to obligate you to worship our God and be a part of our religion

>IN fact early Christianity was far more different to the one were familiar with precisely because it was "Romanized" by the empire.
completely false, with no attestation other than Enlightenment/xth Great Awakening Protestant propaganda

Again, a total meme. First, generation after generation of ancient Hellene lived and died before your hebrew demigod was even born. So you already have millions of Hellenes who had no apparent need or desire for hebrew mythology.

Next, even after Jesus lives and dies, there are millions of Hellenes who still lived and died without converting.

You are stuck with the reality that this intellectual clash, this great reckoning where your mythology triumphed over philosophy in some battle of the minds, never happened. Instead, you have a gradual decay, a sad disease that grips Europe as a whole and then ultimately came to subjugate almost everyone through a combination of numbers, economics, and politics.

Your version of history is meme tier nonsense that totally ignores all the people who lived and died with 0 need or desire for hebrew mythology. You cannot simply point to the current, tragic state of Greece in order to claim that the ancients gleefully took up hebrew doctrine as soon as they became aware of it.

Ooh yes pope fuck me harder

The only kikes here are you for worshiping a Semitic god. Go back to your sterile desert and take Yahweh with you.

Anime website

what happened was that early christians evangelized in greece, engaged in public debate with their philosophers and persuaded the greek people that christianity was superior. this general process took years to complete but it is nonetheless what happened.

Does that mean christianity's current decline is a sign of its inferiority?

t. barg bigerns

jesus said most people would reject him. the fact that were even still debating the significance of a homeless jew in a backwater roman province two thousand years later is proof that christianity has already won.

"years of public debate", or centuries of debate, preaching, economic and political conflict, and the teaching of children?

Obviously the latter; again, you commit multiple errors of reason.

You ignore the fact that countless Hellenes lived and died without ever accepting your demigod. Until you can respond to this point head-on, you must accept that your religion was unable to overcome the Classics insofar as truth, goodness, reason are concerned. Your whole meme of Christian persuasiveness and intellectual brilliance is toast.

Hebrew mythology clashed with the Classics, was rejected by millions of educated Hellenes, and so it spread through alternative means. When it had the power of numbers it abused its power to clamp down on philosophy. This has nothing to do with hebrew mythology being right or wrong. Indeed, your appreciation for mythology suggests that you have no love for philosophy or the good, it's simply not one of your concerns. You are in love with the works of man (the bible).

Importantly:

This meme-tier history is being raised by you in bad faith. You are trying to by-pass the need to support your hebrew mythology by claiming that the issue was decided because Classical philosophers somehow all agreed that Christianity was correct. Lies.

You are trying to avoid the real debate, presumably because hebrew mythology will yet again get btfo and sink even further into decline. You lie and say that ancient philosophers that we like were astounded by the truth of Christianity, because then our supposed leaders can be used to make us accept Christianity.

That approach isn't going to work here, because it's so blatantly false. It's a disgusting lie, spouted by a person who has betrayed his ancestors, forsaken the truth, and has sold his soul in support of the works of man (the bible). You worship tales told by men, and have nothing to do with philosophy, the truth, goodness, or anything worth respecting.

No, it's proof that to a great extent he is winning, but thankfully winning to a much lesser extent than before. In fact, the way things are going, it seems doubtful that Christianity will ever fully recover.

Everything with a beginning has an end, that includes Christianity. There could never be an absolute victory by the Christians, and it is a metaphysical truth that there will come a day when no text or reference to Christianity exists.

Bullshit, plenty of reformers manage to stay in the Church. Luther's ego killed Christendom.

christianity did overcome the classics, the temples were in fact abandoned and churches were built over them. you are accusing me of being in bad faith while acting like greece wasnt christianized which is naked hypocrisy. you also misconstrue my argument because i never claimed the classical philosophers agreed christianity was correct my argument has been that the church triumphed over the philosophers by persuading the greek people to give themselves over to christ.

t. voltaire

Look how you back-pedal. Nobody is denying that eventually, through a variety of different means, Christianity became the dominant religious and political authority in Greece. That was never your original claim, though.

You put forward the notion that ancient Europeans rushed to embrace hebrew mythology, that hebrew mythology somehow came to win in a philosophical struggle. Total lies that you have apparently dropped.

It is therefore the true teaching that Christianity won through non-philosophical, non-intellectual means. To the extent that those who love hebrew mythology, aka love the works of man, accept philosophy, it is that they actually recognised the ancient Europeans were right.

Specifically, those coming from the background of accepting stories written by men realised that in the intellectual realm, the ancients were supreme. So, acknowledging their inherent inferiority, Christians desperately tried to ape the ancient philosophers and co-opt them to what extent they could.

It was this move that actually has lead to the downfall of Christianity and its current decline, because hebrew mythology could never be fully integrated with a tradition of reason. Christian teachings, when examined by a philosopher, are revealed as incoherent and incorrect. Which, to go back to the original point, is why Christianity could never have been needed by ancient philosophers, and would never have been embraced in the manner in which your meme-tier historical account supposes.

my claim has been that the greeks quickly embraced christianity

this claim is true regardless of however many essays you want to write

Your claim is true regardless? Almost like... you have faith in it, rather any reasoned understanding.

Anyway, no essays needed. It was shown not to be quick, because it took generations. It was shown to be a lie made in bad faith for other reasons, too.

You gave up philosophy for the works of man. Have fun being divorced from the divine, the true wages of your most fundamental sin.

>my claim has been that the greeks quickly embraced christianity

That's a false claim, it took centuries of brutal persecution.

>this claim is true

That's not a claim at all, it is a loaded question using a false premise.

>implying you even deserve a (You)
Another victory for people who actually know anything.

the reasoning behind my understanding is that the churches planted by paul and other evangelists in the first century inaugurated the irreversible conversion of greece. since the pagans were unable to refute christianity and prevent the church from gaining a foothold in greece when paganism was at its zenith with full institutional support of the roman empire it was all over for them.

the first century church may have itself been brutally persecuted but it did not brutally persecute anyone else.

then why american worship israel ?

That's where you're wrong, hebrew mythology was refuted. As shown, Christianity didn't win in the philosophical realm, that's why it took generations, that's why millions of Hellenes continued to live and die without converting, that's why Christians planted the seeds of their own destruction when they began studying the superior works of Greeks and Latins and tried to incorporate reason into their faith.

Christianity converted the populace through multiple different avenues. It's a practical question; Christians barely even operate on a philosophical level. Winning some intellectual contest was completely out of the question when your theology relies on faith in the works of man rather than reason. Even when the West was expanding to incorporate disparate populaces and was not unified intellectually. It's a non-starter.

Also, lmao that Christians didn't not brutally persecute anyone. I mean, you're too far gone if you take it as an article of faith that Europeans just spontaneously and willingly all converted to Christianity and it won some amazing hearts and minds victory and proved all other ideas to be false. Just sheer fantasy.

*did not brutally persecute anyone.

>the first century church may have itself been brutally persecuted
Largely a meme desu.

>it did not brutally persecute anyone else.
Not in the 1st Century but Greece wasn't Christianized in the 1st Century.

>beginning
do you have proof about total persecution , i believe that christian were persecuted by roman until constantine how could they persecute people while being percuted ?

In france mostly , if it was not the case , at the fall of rome , christianity would have disapear like in england .

So Greece full embraced Christianity prior to Constantine did they? Fascinating claim.

did i say that , i just do not remenber proof of persecution of non christian in greece i also add that persecution could have start only after constantine :(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Greco-Roman_polytheism

christianity was not refuted which is why it ended up dominating greece and the early church did not persecute anyone only you keep attempting to shift the discussion to post constantine when the greeks had converted before then. im actually on my way to church so we can continue this debate later if you want.

the christianization of greece began in the first century and again that the pagans couldnt stop the church when they were at the height of their power shows that once christianization began it was irreversible.

christianity didnt disappear in britain after the fall of rome, after all the britons ended up converting the english even after being conquered by them.

>christianity didnt disappear in britain after the fall of rome, after all the britons ended up converting the english even after being conquered by them.

meant for

>the christianization of greece began in the first century and again that the pagans couldnt stop the church when they were at the height of their power shows that once christianization began it was irreversible.

It doesn't show any such thing, that is completely illogical.

I thought that most of king of britain converted tanks to krankish influence ? And also that early christian king of england loose their kingdom due to their conversion, because it was not accepted by the nobility .