What happened to the Roman patricians and Greek eupatrids? Like, why is there no confirmed descent from antiquity down to today?
I know some Italian noble families like the Orsini like to claim that they came from old Roman noble families, but there was no proof of it. It just seems strange to me that ancient Rome and ancient Greece, literate as they were, would suddenly lose track of these families that built the civilizations.
Was the Italian upper class totally replaced by the Lombards? I mean the patricians and the nobility of the Greek city states logically must have descendants today, but there's just no documentation for what happened to those bloodlines. I was just wondering what happened.
What I can add to the thread is that the pope after the fall of the WRE, was usually elected from the ancient roman noble families
source: a wikipedia article I'll post as soon as I find it again
Ryder Ramirez
The Roman Aristocracy outside Italy more often than not aligned themselves to the Germanic warlords carving kingdoms across the declining Western Empire.
And part of that is marrying off daughters to said warlords.
Parker Moore
nobles and rich people normally get fucked when their nation get invaded
Brayden Sanchez
I will add that it's extremely difficult to make a family last that long and maintain any sort of legitimacy. No more male heirs? Dynasty done. Last male loses title? Fade into dust. Plus the Dark Ages, literally called 'dark' because of the lack of records, is a perfect time for people to lose track of dynasties. Also the great migration and invasions which displaced much of the noble classes all throughout Europe. Byzantines is another matter altogether but I don't know much about them desu.
Jordan Young
I thought they sort of evolved to become the feudal lords no?
Hudson King
I think it's a matter of ideological reconfiguration. Books, records, and other cultural tools of civilization are fragile and if they are not preserved or cultivated will die out. We can see a recent example in China with the cultural revolution where many texts and artifacts were destroyed, hence eliminating competing narratives. This is a fairly common tool of the priestly castes of countries throughout history to change the standards or morals of the time. Nietzsche was very good with this topic in his Genealogy. His friend Walter Burkhart the famous swiss historian wrote about the senility of late roman culture and how it slipped from concrete expression of culture into a strange new mode. This attitude or worldview which christianity and other historical forces brought to bear meant a re-writing of their past to begin a new future. This is a systemic historical issue that occurs throughout all time and in all places: a need to redefine, and forget.
Matthew Howard
That's over 2000 years. It's way too long ago. No way descent can be tracked that long.
Cameron Morales
For all of history, how many male lines are dead compared to the ones that survived to now?
Lucas Green
Well, even as late as the tenth century there were popes from the gens anicia
Ayden Walker
romans even did it to themselves the old emperor and everyone related to them were done away with
Christopher Hill
Charlemagne claimed Roman senatorial ancestry. It would be interesting to prove that, since there are people today descended from him.
Brody Perry
it's a really shaky claim with no proofs
Ryan Perry
So are you saying that one of his male ancestors didn't father one of his other male ancestors with the female relative of a Roman senator?
Juan Murphy
his claim is patrilinear dude
Liam Miller
>female relative of a Roman senator? After ostrogoths, gothic-ERE wars and then finally lombards, romans/latins no longer existed
Teutomer: 302 (Gaul) - 363 (Gaul), general to emperor Julian the Apostate Flavius Richomeres: 335 (Toxandria, Gaul) - 393 (Dalmatia, Illyria), murdered firstborn son of Teutomer, Comes, Magister militum of Gaul, Consul of Rome Theodemer: 374 (Xaintonge, Gaul) - 421 (Rome, Italy), executed firstborn son of Richomeres and Ascyla, King of the Franks at Therouanne Chlodio Longhair: 395 (Cologne, Gaul) - 448 (Cambrai, Gaul), firstborn son of Theodemer and Blesinde of Cologne, King of the Salian Franks Merovech: 412 (Tournai, Gaul) - 456 (Tournai, Gaul), firstborn son of Chlodio Longhair and Arnegonde of Basinden, King of the Salian Franks Childeric I: 436 (Tournai, Gaul) - 481 (Tournai, Gaul), firstborn son of Merovech and Verica, King of the Salian Franks Clovis I: 466 (Pays Nantais, Gaul) - 511 (Paris, France), firstborn son of Childeric I and Basina of Thuringia, King of the Salian Franks, King of the Franks
Julian the Apostate was a member of the ancient Claudii patrician family, it is possible Teutomer was married to one of his nieces or something.
Brody Gutierrez
damn, this shit is pathetic.
Carson Taylor
Many of them were Popes (Pope Gregory) could not have official heirs, so their lineage was not tracked
Ryder Phillips
The oldest lineage in the West is that of the Bourbons, which started in the 8th century.
Benjamin Cooper
>maternal descent Just lol.
Liam Jones
Is it really that hard to believe that Roman nobles would have married with Germanic warlords?
Justin Moore
Play CK2 without cheating and see how long you can make your dynasty last. And thats with you god-controlling people to act in the best interests of the dynasty. Now imagine they are real human beings and you see how hard it is. All it takes is a bad and degenerate generation who loses the estate, have no sons, plague hits, a political purge, etc
Daniel Nelson
>Dark ages meme No
This
Nathaniel Robinson
When the romans came to Hispania they integrated the local nobility on their ranks When the goths came to Hispania they integrated the hispano-roman nobility on their ranks When the moors came to Hispania they integrated the hispano-gothic nobility on their ranks When the christians reconquered the land integrated the muslim nobility on their ranks (after they converted) When the spaniards conquered the aztecs and incas they integrated the native nobility on their ranks
There's similar processes on France, Italy, Greece, Iran and all over the world
You don't kill the whole nobility, just those few who resist. The survivors are integrated onto your ranks to administrate the new lands, allowing them to conserve privileges in exchange of obedience
Eli Peterson
they returned to their homelands (Africa) after g*rmanic subhumans destroyed their empires that BLACK ppl built, you see ancient greeks and romans were actually BLACK Africans, modern Italians are descendants of these ppl and wh*tes will commonly try to muddy these water with lies and Wikipedia articles but Italians and greeks know their true routes, theyre the children of BLACK kings and queens
Justin Martin
Because it was antiquity and patricians and not the autistic feudal middle ages?
Carson Nelson
>We can see a recent example in China with the cultural revolution where many texts and artifacts were destroyed, hence eliminating competing narratives. I wasn't aware that Imperial China was erased from Chinese history by the communists.
