How true are the memes of all non-Abrahamic cultures being LGBTQA (of whatever the fuck the acronym is in The Current Year) friendly? For example, did ancient China have any history of a gay culture?
How true are the memes of all non-Abrahamic cultures being LGBTQA (of whatever the fuck the acronym is in The Current...
Anthony Martin
Adrian Fisher
Near every ancient religion and culture hated gays
some more than others
The only two i can think of that did not out right hate gays where rome and greece
Thomas King
roman republic had a law that said gays couldn't be in the army, but its not known if this was actually followed.
Easton Cook
They just hated bottoms.
Luis Lewis
Well first you need to realize that for the vast majority of human history homosexuality was not an identity, it was a set of behaviors. This is a distinction that many moderns have trouble making because the concept of identity is so entrenched in society now. People take for granted the idea that observable behavior is an expression of some inner personality, but this was a revolutionary idea that only really kicked off in the 19th century thanks to people like Freud.
So for ancient Romans calling somebody a pederast or buggerer meant "you engage in homosexual behavior" it didn't mean there was any kind of identity associated with that. The distinction is important because the assumptions you make about a person are completely different based on whether or not you accept the existence of identity. If you believe in identity, then you believe that homosexuality is somehow intrinsic to his being, that his behaviors are symptoms to an underlying cause. But if you don't subscribe to that, as nobody did in the ancient world, then behaviors are simply behaviors and can be checked or indulged in at the whim of the individual.
With this in mind, the attitude they have regarding it becomes more clear. In some societies they were permissive, and treated it as just another vice like gambling or drinking too much. Something that, while not necessarily criminal, was not something you bragged about in polite company. It was deviant behavior, and very rarely was deviant behavior seen as a good thing at any point in history in any culture.
Luis Kelly
For some reason people today look at historical examples of pederasty and think it means people were okay with this. Its only the sort of thing someone with power can do to someone with none. A priest or aristocrat could get away with it because they were above question most of the time (unless they went too far). They would rape children of lower status and the people really couldn't do anything about it. What they often couldn't get away with was raping the children of people of equal or higher social status, the more powerful a person was the more trouble you would find yourself in if you raped their kid.
It was a system of the elite shitting on those lower than themselves, rarely would you find the role being reversed. You can actually SEE the same thing today, when boys and girls are molested it is always by someone with a position of authority. Priests in religious communities, teachers in schools and baby sitters etc.
To say "Greek and Roman people didn't hate this stuff" ignores the feelings of the lower class who could do nothing when their children were taken by people with power.
Grayson Martin
Yes, iirc i read that in the Han Dynasty women got super butthurt that men preferred young boys
Angel Martin
If I remember correctly it was more about officers having gay relations with their subordinates than about two regular legionaries having sex (though I think that was frowned on as well).
Samuel Green
/thread. homosexuality wasn't that big of a deal to people. they hear "that guy fucks boys" and think "hmm...weird" then continue on about their day.
Nolan Garcia
A good example is Sulla, as there are multiple sources confirming he had a fuckboi. In all of these sources, it's written as though it was something peculiar enough to mention, but clearly wasn't something which destroyed his career either.
Jackson Nguyen
>so they fucked them
Lucas Diaz
That was Song dynasty.
>All the gentlemen and officials esteemed it. All men in the realm followed this fashion to the extent that husbands and wives were estranged. Resentful unmarried women became jealous.
Asher Scott
Yup
That was manly
Wasn't the latin word for manly equivalent to raping another mans face?
Cameron White
Gay blowjob that you'd only enjoy if you are gay is the term.
A guy sucking dick might be forced into the situation. The guy getting his dick sucked wants it to happen.
QED - Tops are gayer than bottoms by a lot.
Aaron Ortiz
In China's case, there was literally only two genders: male & female. So LGBTQRX is out.
Homosexuality wasn't seen as an identity, but rather merely as either
1) A sexual fetish.
2) An upgrade of a same-sex partnership/friendship.
That said, people who did so didn't see themselves as a separate gender or identity. They were still male/female. They did not press upon marrying people of the same sex, considering families don't work that way.
There's also situations in which men who have been fucking each other would marry women, have families, but fuck each other in the side.
In terms of morality, it wasn't considered immoral to have sexual relations with people of the same gender. Chinese religion's and moral philosophies barely gave a shit. It was immoral if you still did it after being married, or if you did it in excess that you can't control your lusts. Just like how Confucian morality viewed heterosexual relationships.
Taoist sexual practices don't give a shit so long as you eat your sperm so as to remain immortal XDDDD
Gavin Parker
Here's a copy pasted answer.
> There are many references to and accounts of homosexuality in Chinese history. I see someone has already mentioned “The Passion of the Cut Sleeve” from the Han Dynasty, but references go back even further than that. The Intrigues of the Warring States from the mid-7th c. BCE, for instance, tells of Duke Xian of Jin planting attractive young men in the courts of his enemies to distract them and give them bad advice. Similarly, later on in the Warring States Period (3rd c. BCE), historian Han Fei gives us in his eponymous work one of the “signature” tales of homosexuality that would ultimately become an idiom for the practice even in modern parlance: the relationship between Viscount Mi Zixia and Duke Ling of Wei. It is as follows:
> Mizi Xia was a favorite, and a Great Master, during the reign of the duke Ling of Wei: he was the lover of the duke. According to the law of the kingdom, the use of the duke’s carriage without permission was forbidden to all, upon pain of having one’s feet cut off. One time it happened that Mizi’s mother took gravely ill, and a breathless messenger came running to the palace in the middle of the night to bring him the news. He, without a second thought, jumped into the duke’s carriage and took off. When the duke found out, instead of punishing him he praised him, saying: “What a devoted son! For his mother he risks even losing his own feet!”
Samuel Watson
>Another time, on a warm summer afternoon, he was strolling with the duke through the royal orchard. A beautiful peach on a low-lying branch caught his eye and he plucked it. Biting down on it he found it sweet, so he offered the rest to the duke. The duke, touched by the intimate gesture, said: “He loves me to the point of forgetting his own mouth and giving it to me!”
>Later, the beauty of the viscount began to fade, and the duke’s love also waned. When the viscount was one time accused of a crime, the duke said: “That one once hijacked my carriage, and he even gave me a half-eaten peach to eat!” Mizi Xia had not done anything unusual. If the ruler was now accusing him of a crime instead of praising him like he used to, that was because the duke’s love had now turned to hate.
> The other famous reference is "Passion of the Cut Sleeve” between Emperor Ai of Han and Dong Xian. It’s important to know that all parties were married to wives… and Emperor Ai’s case especially, possessing an entire harem of them. Did these women know the physical aspect of their husbands’ relationships? It seems likely that they would have – that aspect of life, however – markedly unlike even accepting depictions in the ancient West, we in China just mundane distractions from what was actually important. To wit, while Ai and Dong Xian were able to carry on their affair without anyone so much as batting an eye, it was when Ai – who died quite young – attempted to name Dong Xian as his heir (instead of his son) that the shit hit the fan. Dong Xian was executed in short order for such a transgression shortly after Ai’s death. Again, the ire raised wasn’t about the sexual relationship, but about the inappropriate transfer of political power. In fact of the 13 emperors of the Western Han period, 10 of them are either known or highly suspected of having taken male lovers in addition to their wives and concubines.
Xavier Ramirez
Screw it, it's too long, just go read the original post.
Yes it's on Reddit.
reddit.com
Jaxson Wright
It was all throughout early Chinese history. Women were seen as seductresses that led to the end of dynasties (see: King Zhou of Shang).
Joshua Sanchez
This is only accurate in the context of exclusively gay men not existing until recently. Men who engaged in homosexual behavior still had wives and children. Pounding anuses was just a weird thing some (ostensibly) heteronormative males did.
Jordan Gomez
>homosexuality was not an identity just a behavior
Explain this quote then.
>Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!
Jack Lopez
ermmm no
Men who wanted heirs had wives got married. If they preferred men they chose men as their lovers. If they preferred women they chose women as their lovers.
Easton Morgan
>Men who wanted heirs had wives got married. If they preferred men they chose men as their lovers. If they preferred women they chose women as their lovers.
Nope
Connor Young
To which part?
Logan Powell
Point me to one instance of exclusively homosexual behavior and it's acceptance as a norm outside of recent history. Protip: you can't. Homosexual behavior was just something a certain subset of men with wives and children engaged in as an extracurricular. Gay identity is new because exclusive homosexuality is new in of itself as a concept.
Wyatt Moore
>Gay identity is new because exclusive homosexuality is new in of itself as a concept.
Explain this quote then.
>Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!
If gay identity didn't exist why does this potter from Pompeii seem to treat it like a dichotomous choice two thousand years ago? This was written on a latrine wall, it did not come from the lofty pages of High Latin. A peasant from 2000 years ago knew it was a dichotomous choice. He is not saying "oh well I can still have a wife while I fuck men", he is saying "GOODBYE WOMEN FOREVER".
Why?
Christopher Ramirez
>exclusively
Like I said. Men who wanted heirs would marry women. There probably was less exclusively homosexuality before the modern vogue for having love and sex and heirs from one person only.
Carter James
So he gave up on girls and made a shitpost about drilling bums? Seems bisexual at best, assuming he wasn't shitposting.
Oscar fucking Wilde had children and most gay men even in living memory were married dudes with children who just fooled around in bath houses on the weekends. Complete faggots who claim to have never been interested in women and never had sex with them are a totally recent invention.
Owen Nguyen
>He says he's gay
>seems bisexual because my worldview cannot handle it
You can't explain it, see. Gay identity clearly existed 2000 years ago. It was clearly seen as one or the other with both being a unique form of degeneracy saved for the rich.
Jaxon Cook
If he is saying good bye to women and how his penis will no longer penetrate them hes not exclusively gay as we understand it right?
Colton Torres
>if he says he's gay he's not gay
The absolute state of modern doublethink. Regardless, the point continues to fly over your head. It was seen as a dichotomy. One or the other. Like today. Deal with it.
Jace Reyes
If he went from fucking women to fucking men it is obviously not a dichotomy. His sexuality is, dare I say it, fluid. The concept of gay men only being able to have sex with other men and being utterly incapable of being sexually excited by women is a MODERN dichotomy. Because exclusive homosexuals and the gay identity are a MODERN invention.
Daniel Garcia
Being gay in China was fine until the Communist took power. Then, the gays got sent to death camps.
Cameron Martinez
There's three main types of homosexuality, egalitarian, gender structured, and age structured.
Egalitarian homosexuality is what is common in the contemporary west, among gay males where both partners are gender conforming. It's much rarer historically, rarely ever becoming an accepted identity or social class.
Age structured and gender structured homosexuality were extremely common cross-culturally and there is some overlap between the two. These types involve a gender conforming man, always assuming the active role and a boy or effeminate man. In societies where these types predominate it is usually not considered gay for the active partner.
It is pretty accurate to say that at least one of the latter two existed in most non-Abrahamic societies, pederasty even persisted in the Islamic Middle East and Central Asia until modern times, and Afghanistan to this day.
See these Wikipedia articles for an overview on occurrences throughout history
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org