When does contraception becomes murder?

Female vanity. The doom of humankind.

>Productive woman with promising career.
>Doesn't burden society with unwanted pregnancy
Problem? Where?

According to the RCC, life begins when the spermatozoid enters and fertelizes the egg.

In most countries that legalized abortion there usually is an attempt at determining a point at which a an embryo becomes a fetus, that is to say, when it is sufficiently "human-like". Aborting a fetus is usually still allowed in cases where the mother's health would be compromised - I suppose you could consider this morally equivalent to self-defense, if you feel the need to frame this in relation to terms like murder. When an embryo is spontaneously aborted, do you consider it manslaughter?

i get why you would put the limit here but it still seems pretty arbitrary to me, the human being is more than his hability to feel.

>I implore you to watch a 3 month abortion
i'm too weak for that

Nice res there Woyceck.

A reminder if you are over the age of 18 and haven't had a child yet you are a fucking disgrace to the human race.

Not him, but I disagree.

If I ever turn into a vegetable, I want my organs to be harvested and to be a small part of a life I'd consider worth living, through someone else. It's a nice thought, I feel.

>Embryos begin to feel

So? Animals feel. Do they begin to REASON?

9 billion on Earth. Millions in poverty.
>Muh medieval reproductive standards
Kill yourself

The "problem" is that she will never feel fulfilled as a human being and be torn apart by guilt and remorse, and that the society she is so "productive" for will lose out on future generations of her productive genes.

babies don't reason either

>a career wasting resources in selling useless crap to other female consumers, bringing a net negative to society
>Been brainwashed since age 2 that women are defective men
I agree women who fall on the extreme side of this spectrum shouldn't have kids though, they need to be bred out of the gene pool, which has been happening since the 60s

Only low-ambition people become fulfilled.

dumb kafirs

Just convince China, India and the Muslims to reproduce like rabbits, and the problem is solved. USA and Europe have a very low rate of births anyway.

So you agree that "it can feel" is a totally irrelevant benchmark? I think parents (not just mothers) should have the right to euthanize newborns as well as abort nearly-borns. Human life has no inherent value, and the kinds of people who would murder their own children are exactly the kind of people I DON'T want breeding in the first place. it's win-win, we don't have to put up with their shit, and they get to feel it was their choice to remove themselves from the genepool.

And people who have children. Ask any of them, sometime. A parent will ALWAYS cite his children as the single most fulfilling thing in their lives, this is true for barmaids as it is for presidents.

The most fulfilled people I've ever met have been parents/grandparents with an active role in their families lives. Yes that is anecdotal evidence.

If people want to buy it, then it has value to them. The money she gets from selling the stuff, she will use to buy stuff that has value to her. The money that the person that sells stuff to her received will be used to buy stuff that has value to that person. And so on and on.

As long as you control for undesirable externalities, trade is good.

>muh eugenic

>muh free-trade
people buy useless shit that does nothing for them all the time

Prove me wrong. Look at the numbers, the kind of people who get abortions are much more likely to be shitty people than the national average. Sure, "nice girls" get abortions too from time to time, but the whores who use abortion as a form of birth control are doing us all a HUGE favor by not breeding.

True. And most people don't really have high ambition.

Having kids isn't really a high goal. It's something idiots manage to do.

Is it useless, tho? It gives her pleasure, it may give her social cache if it impresses her friends, or if she gives it as a gift. Shopping fills some deep evolutionary needs for women, who have historically been the "gatherer" sex. Just as a man gets a thrill from a chase, a woman gets one from finding a bunch of """useless""" shit to adorn the cave with.

Much worse, imo, is stuff like junk food, where people are paying essentially for a lie (that this food is as good as it looks) and being suckered into signing up for future sales thru addictive additives.

Idiots, and yet not you. Interesting. And why should the thing that fulfills us be beyond our reach? That would be a particularly cruel "design", would it not?

Having kids AND doing something with your life is a high goal. There are morons who have kids and don't raise them properly, or they split up, but that doesn't somehow make having kids bad. Life doesn't seem worth living without family and friends to me. Being a pauper with loved ones sounds better than living a hollow materialistic lifestyle.

just round up all people and kill the one you don't like if you want to manipulate the genpool, faggot

Imagine the shitstorm if someone with kids openly regretted to have children.
And you also probably believe that childless older people claiming to be happy must be in denial.
I don't doubt that most people like children, just saying that you are being a bit facetious here.

Do you disagree with his point or are you just butthurt thinking about the sluts that get creampied and regret it?

But you can do it equally well by just sterilizing them.

I have no wish to impose my will on others, nor to have anyone else have the power to impose his will on me. Besides, I could never do nearly so good a job of selecting the "right" people to be removed as free, on-demand abortion does. It's really the perfect system, just look into the figures of who gets abortions and see for yourself.

>woman
>productive

If there's one thing you're programmed to do its have and raise kids. If they somehow hate it, something must have gone seriously wrong in their head.

This is a /pol/ thread

Why can't you retards just GTFO?

80% of remains in tophets are newborns and stillvorns, like 2% are over a month old. This combined with the fact children were always found in their own cemetary, without more conclusive evidence, it's fair to say this was a child burial practice rather than sacrafice

>Imagine the shitstorm if someone with kids openly regretted to have children.

My own father often says he should never have been a parent, and that he hated the whole experience. He and his second wife are fiercely anti-natal. But even he is glad he actually HAD children, detestable tho he found the experience and despite his strong misanthropy. I know this because he reaches out to us, to talk or to meet up, of his own volition.

>And you also probably believe that childless older people claiming to be happy must be in denial

Why must I believe this? Protip: I don't. Lots of things can make people happy, having children is merely the most certain (and one of the easiest).

>I don't doubt that most people like children, just saying that you are being a bit facetious here.

Other people's children? Sure they're annoying as fuck. Your own? I doubt there are many non-psychopaths who don't find their own kids endlessly fascinating. Why do you think they post pictures of them online all the time?

>Abortion is murder.
Sure, I agree to that.
>Contraception is murder.
What?

So when I jack it and my sperm dies on a scrap of paper, I am a genocidal maniac?

Sure, but I don't see how they are more reprehensible than sterile or homosexual people.

So what? That money is then used to buy other, perhaps useful stuff, like food. If people want to waste their excess money, why not let them?

>Why can't you retards just GTFO?
>t. annoying namefaggot

They aren't reprehensible, they've been brainwashed. You don't find anti-natalists outside the developed world, this is a learned response.

I don't think they are either, but there's something very sad and unhealthy about it. Kind of like a mental illness vibe, but of course its their choice.
Come up with a counter argument then faggot, there's reasonable discussion going on in this thread. Don't be mad at other people because they're giving you cognitive dissonance.

fuck off subhuman, and don't call me a /pol/tard ever again

I didn't even notice him because I have him filtered. Learn how to use the filtering options, it will save you a lot of irritation.

You arr shitting this board
>muh european genocide

Not personally wanting to have children doesn't means you are anti-natalist and people outside the developed world don't have a lot of freedom.

>people outside the developed world don't have a lot of freedom

>Not personally wanting to have children doesn't means you are anti-natalist

True, you might have some exceptional circumstances that rule it out, like how Hitler's cousins took a pact to not have children.

What about now?

Reported for abuse of the name system.

Are you the guy that filtered me?

>be 23
>my sheer look of terror and confusion when a 19 year old from a poor area tells me she has baby fever because all of her other friends have kids.
>and the guy she wants to marry is getting out of prison in 2 months.

This is just so wrong in so many levels.
Everybody knows once somebody gets married they don`t care anymore and get a belly since they already got everything they need

>tfw the first of my former classmates to become a father (at 20) also went to prison shortly after

t. virgin

Yeah if you marry a girl out of desperation. You should be high value enough to have other female admirers that make her realize she can't let herself slip because you can replace her.

Religion? even outside muslim places you generally can't practice or not practice the religion you want.
Marriage? "Arranged" (actually forced because you will not be able to say no) marriages are the norm.
Not economic or political freedom either.

let me guess you are american?

Θ_Θ

Based Poland

You should only legalize abortion if you've a city-destroying underclass like negros.

Here I thought the majority of r/incels was just people trolling like on certain boards in pol.

Tell me why I'm wrong then?

>Western first world countries, the only ones who give a fuck, are already in a population decline
>Africa and SEA booming, don't give a rat's ass about the big picture
>...
>let's just drop the West even further

Arranged marriage is virtually unknown outside India, and all these religions of which you speak have aesthetic traditions to accommodate anti-natalists. Also weaker states means the individual has MORE political freedom, not less. You can get away with shit in the Turd World that would get you locked up in the West.

If only we had borders

Borders don't work by magic user. It's the will to ENFORCE our borders that we lack.

What does that matter? We're taking about world population here. Those countries WILL industrialize, and if you think the West was bad about the environment...

>what is leapfrogging technology

I'm not saying having kids is bad. If people want it, I expect them to try to accomplish it.

>being a pauper
It seems you assumed that wanting to be wealthy is what I mean by "high ambition". There is more to a person than the money and family pictures in that person's wallet.

Lots of non-idiots (like artists, philosopher and scientists that made it into the history books) don't have kids either. Not that having kids makes you an idiot, that isn't what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that having kids shouldn't be considered a necessity criteria to be deemed "successful". I didn't even claim to have high ambitions for myself.

I myself probably will avoid having kids unless there are any major breakthroughs in gene therapy. I couldn't bear to think about having to bury my kids and knowing they died because of my genes.

>And why should the thing that fulfills us be beyond our reach? That would be a particularly cruel "design", would it not?
"Should" doesn't matter, I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives. I'd rather that you set your own goals. I'm not saying that people should have high ambitions. I'm saying that people with high ambitions don't become fulfilled. People that want less are easier to please. Meanwhile there are people that will never be satisfied and their lives will be about their constant search for new heights. The world is made better by some of these people, people I refered to in my point on childless non-idiots.

Contraception is not murder, though. Abortion is.

underrated response