The shroud of secession has fallen

When they landed in the late 1500s and never lost the virtues of medieval European nobility.
It wasn’t really larping, they actually thought the same way older European nobility did.

he joined the confederacy for no other reason than that he owned slaves, and was in fact quite cruel to them. He never intended to fight for the union should war break out.

>One Slave says Lee was a monster
>Discounts all the personal letters he wrote on the issue of secession
Fuck off

>The time has come, Commander.
>Execute General Order 28

>ITS OVER LEE
>I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND

...

secession and slavery arent the same thing you fucking retard.
You can oppose the idea of secession and still support slavery, tons of politicians in the north held the exact same position.
Lee owned slaves, and when he invaded the North he ordered free blacks to captured and enslaved.

You underestimate my power!

Why is this funny?

Madison was seduced by the popular side of the vote

No shit, the war was fought by southerners who would never own a slave in their life so that the top 1%-the rich plantation owners-of society could keep their slaves.

(You)

And he did not join because he was a slave owner YOU fucking retard, in private letters he criticized the idea of secession and only joined when the Southern cause when his home state of Virginia seceded. When his army was captured he told his men to stand down and was instrumental to making sure no guerrilla warfare happened after it was over. The man was not gung ho about secession at all.

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.

When an oligarchy of 300,000 slaveholders dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, "slavery" on the banner of Armed Revolt, when on the very spots where hardly a century ago the idea of one great Democratic Republic had first sprung up, whence the first Declaration of the Rights of Man was issued, and the first impulse given to the European revolution of the eighteenth century; when on those very spots counterrevolution, with systematic thoroughness, gloried in rescinding "the ideas entertained at the time of the formation of the old constitution", and maintained slavery to be "a beneficent institution", indeed, the old solution of the great problem of "the relation of capital to labor", and cynically proclaimed property in man "the cornerstone of the new edifice" — then the working classes of Europe understood at once, even before the fanatic partisanship of the upper classes for the Confederate gentry had given its dismal warning, that the slaveholders' rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of property against labor, and that for the men of labor, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict on the other side of the Atlantic. Everywhere they bore therefore patiently the hardships imposed upon them by the cotton crisis, opposed enthusiastically the proslavery intervention of their betters — and, from most parts of Europe, contributed their quota of blood to the good cause.

>You're gonna pay for all the Union soldiers that you've killed today Lee!
>We'll take him together, you go in slowly on the left-
>NO I'M TAKING HIM NOW!
>NO SICKLES! NO! NOOOOO!!!

>As you can see, my West Point powers are far beyond yours. Now, back down.
>I don't think so
>Master Meade, you disappoint me. Grant holds you in such high esteem. Surely you can do better.

you're clearly not understanding.
I am well aware that Lee ideologically opposed secession but to pretend that he was in any way unsympathetic to slavery and therefore the Confederacy on the whole, is ridiculous.
If he truly deep in his heart full stop opposed secession he would not have fought for the South, but clearly his personal convictions on the matter werent strong enough to prevent him from being essentially the only reason the war lasted as long as it did.
>but he made sure no guerrila warfare happened
how the fuck is that relevant to whether or not he supported slavery?
>The man was not gung ho about secession at all
sure. He wasnt gung ho about abolition either, an issue that wouldnt bother him should he side with the south, so he did.

Close, the war was fought by southerners who would never own a slave in their life so that they wouldn't become equal to the lowest rung of society.

>this ship picked up two passengers, what have you done with those diplomats.

>we picked up no passengers, this is a Royal Mail ship, we’re on a diplomatic mission to London.....

>captain Wilkes, I should have known you were behind this, when the British Parliament heard of this-

>You are part of the Confederacy and a traitor. TAKE THEM AWAY

Kekopolypse

>kino shots of georgia burning in the distance

Kek

I oh know he supported Slavery, but if Virginia did not join he would not have joined the South. And it is relevant because if he really joined the Confederacy as said here
Why did he wait until Virginia seceded? Why did when his army was surrounded, if he was only in it to keep slaves attempt to make sure no guerrilla war of any kind happened after the war? The man was not a very political person and if Virginia never seceded he would have watched the war happen and then given up his slaves without a fight. You can support slavery and not have it be your reason for joining the Confederacy. He joined the war because of his home state NOT because of his personal feelings on slavery.

>I *am* the Supreme Court

>Not yet.

>Master Grant...
>Count Lee
>You have interfered with our affairs for the last time.
>Powerful you have become Lee. Secession I sense in you.
>I've become more powerful than any Unionist. Even you.
>Much to learn you still have...
>It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of West Point, but by our skills with trench warfare...

It's nullification, then...

WEESA FREE!

Ft Sumter was created specifically to defend the City of Charleston and the State South Carolina

It's even mentioned in the Act that led to it's creation.

>I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new empire

>Lincoln, my allegiance is to Virginia. To the Confederacy!

>its treason then

>I've been called the Northern Aggressor. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say that this conflict be called the War of Northern Aggression. This Aggression is necessary, nay righteous, if we are to keep this Union together and punish illegal rebellion.

I understand that it’s important to acknowledge his loyalty to Virginia but I think too much is made of it and not enough on his slaves.
I will concede that it it’s unfair to say slavery was the most important reason that southerners fought for because it’s not true and also makes the war impossible to discuss calmly.

Personally I just don’t hold much respect for Lee though

>I will concede that it it’s unfair to say slavery was the most important reason that southerners fought for because it’s not true
alright what was it?

What was what?
Slavery to the confederacy or the most important reason southern soldiers fought?

the reason why the confederacy seceeded. I mean you know more than the people who made the cornerstone speech, wrote that the state's rights to own negroes as the reason why they secceeded.

Fair enough, we could probably debate all day about why Lee fought the war because as far as I know he never explicitly wrote it down. I still believe that if Virginia stayed in the Union he might have become commander of some local Virginian forces to protect it if the more Southern states invaded it, but even that seems unlikely. I will concede however that obviously the reason most of the political establishment of the South seceded was because of Slavery and that the States Rights thing is pretty much a meme. I am not sure how many generals seceded purely because of slavery and not because of their states seceding.
I think most privates and the like fought just because that Yankee was coming down to the South, just like most Union soldiers probably fought because those Southerners attacked Fort Sumter. A good amount of soldiers on both sides however were conscripted and did not have a choice.

I think Shelby Foote referenced an alleged exchange between Union soldiers who surrounded a confederate where a union private shouted something like “why you fightin anyway?” And the confederate private said “I’m fighting because you’re down here”

fresh for your viewing pleasure

>"The Republic shall be reorganized, into the first American Empire!"

>ONLY a slaveowner deals in ABSOLUTES..

>It's treason, then... REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause.

>Alien and Sedition Acts
>let George Washington violate Emoluments Clause
>cucked out with the Jay Treaty
>Federalists at Harford Convention wanted to secede

No, most of them were fighting for slavery even though they never had slaves cause it fed into their white supremacist ego.
civilwar.org/learn/articles/why-non-slaveholding-southerners-fought
The anti-slavery GOP took control of the federal governmetn and pretty much the North for the most part in the years just prior to the war. Sure there Northern Confederate sympathizers but they didn't hold any real weight at the time. Copperheads tended to be types with ties to the slave South and even academics.
npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/17/223420533/how-slavery-shaped-americas-oldest-and-most-elite-colleges

The article you linked does not prove your point about why the average Southern soldier fought the in the war. It simply puts forward what people in power, government officials, church leaders, community leaders, etc were telling them. In the North people were told to preserve the Union and after 1862 to free the slaves. Does this mean most Union soldiers joined driven by some higher duty to good? Are you suggesting the average Southern soldier was an evil racist who only fought the war to keep the black man in chains?

"What's going on here?"

>That's... Th-that's wonderful.

>What are we gonna do?

>Were not gonna worry about anything right now. Alright? This is a happy moment. The happiest moment of my life.

Not American history related. Also not funny in the slightest. Try again.

>I sense great fear in you McClellan... You have supplies... You have manpower... But you don't use them...

YES, that is what the evidence shows in both cases.

You are seriously suggesting the average Southern soldier fought the war because "Fuck niggers I hope they keep being mistreated"

>North and South stuck in autistic war

>Based western states living as cowboys and looking for gold

How bad is it that I get this reference

>implying the West wasn't a fucking bloodbath

sides=gone

no more along the lines of "if the Northerners win they'll free the niggers, put them in power and forcibly marry our wives and have babies with them.

That is not a white supremacist ego that is just poor people being fed bullshit by politicians. Again they fought the war because "Those Yankees are coming down here and mean to do me harm" just like the Northerners fought he war because "The Southerners attacked Fort Sumter and mean to do the Union harm" I do not see why that is racist.

>Southerners from outside South Carolina are going to fight cause muh fort
>thinking people were so autistic at muh yankee troop's presence to fight them cause some abstract overzealous belief in states' rights
Why was Ft. Sumter a problem? Cause of secession, and why were they seceding? Slavery. South Carolina issued an address to all slave states to also secede and form a Confederacy for slavery, and that's what happened. Sure half the CSA didn't secede until after Ft. Sumter, but that doesn't change anything, Virginia seceded after Sumter and it's Ordinance of Secession straight up acknowledged a kinship with slaveholding states. Why would they specify slaveholding states and not just the Southern states?
You also haven't shown any sources suggesting they fought over anything else than racial fears.

Oh yeah this
teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/address-of-south-carolina-to-slaveholding-states/

I did not say that Southerners fought because of Fort Sumter I said it was a pretty big reason Union soldiers fought, a pretty clear aggression against them. I also never said they fought for States Rights, stop putting words in my mouth. I actually said states rights was a meme here
>I will concede however that obviously the reason most of the political establishment of the South seceded was because of Slavery and that the States Rights thing is pretty much a meme.
I also said above that Slavery was by far the main issue for the Southern states seceding. I simply said the average South soldier, fought because of what politicians were telling them, that the Union wished to keep them oppressed and that Union armies were marching on the South. The oppression part was obviously not true and Union armies only began to March once the South made the first move.

>come from the only true aristocracy america ever had, grow up with revolutionary war souvenirs from washington
>generally opposed to slavery
>the war comes
>turn down position as commander of the union forces to fight for a nearly hopeless cause
>some half literate estrogen clown 200 years later "disapproves" of your action

There was literally a man named states rights
>muh abstraction
Not any more than 1776 was an abstraction.

>slavery
Do you mean unconstitutional interference with slavery?
Of course slave states felt kinship. Not because of slavery in and of itself, but because that institution had shaped their cultures and economies to be different from those of the North.

Slavery itself might very well have been abolished if not for the initial hysterics of a northern rabble.

>my only argument is calling them a tranny

Back to /trash/

You mean besides the other arguments?
Back to >>>/reddit/

You mean those non arguments you think are arguments because you don't know what an argument is?

How are they non arguments? The only non arguments I see are in your posts.

And that's also not an argument. Sad.

More like early-mid 1600s but otherwise correct

Nigga why do you keep quoting this one scene?

>Though the attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, my resolve has NEVER been greater!

My sides.

t. disproving estrogen clown

>if the Northerners win they'll free the niggers, put them in power
yeah isn't that exactly what happened during reconstruction though?

>give them political rights on par with other people
wow, how terrible.

Don't try it!

hahaha
The man was clever.

That photo looks far far better in black and white in my useless opinion. For some reason the old man just looks more dignified

This shit is hilarious

>give illiterate slaves political power
>they descend immediately into fucking up the political system
>"dey iz oracticing dey rightz"

your position is dumb

regards,
a man from the internet

noice

Cringe

>2/3rds of reconstruction states legislatures are freed blacks because 75-90% of whites can no longer vote
>Black Republican legislatures proceed to crash the economy and drive their states into the ground because former slaves make horrible politicians

Really activates my almonds.

reddit is down the hall and to the left

Glad to know where I can find you, soyboy mcgee

t. cuck
Just move to the South already, you'll find a nice bull in no time.