Fascists themselves remained intentionally ambiguous as to what Fascism even was, as far as I can tell it just seemed like authoritarian social democracy with a war mongering streak. To make matters even more confusing, the things that made fascism unique (more direct management of the economy, war mongering and a curtailing of civil rights) was also done by the westen allies and the Soviet Union. Even racial prejudice wasn't uniquely fascistic.
Are our notions of fascism just post hoc bullshit?
>Ideologies grouped under the umbrella of 'fascism' are often wildly different from one another and these ideas on paper were often different from how they were actually practised. >Therefore fascism was never a real movement and fascist leaders were just opportunists who would say anything to get into power >Ideologies grouped under the umbrella of 'communism' are often wildly different from one another and these ideas on paper were often different from how they were actually practised. >Therefore communism has never really been tried and communist revolutions were always betrayed by opportunists who would say anything to get into power
Explain these two concurrent memes.
Brayden Sullivan
>dude serve the state, it's like spiritual and shit lmao
Austin Edwards
>is fascism defined post-hoc >evidently it's not, due to the existence of documents that outline the fascist doctrine >dude serve the state, it's like spiritual and shit lmao stirner.jpg Kill yourself, my man.
William Russell
Basically you can say that those regimes started with a clear goal in mind but the way hoe it was handled got changed by the leaders. Basically you can say that the UDSSR was bolshevik, stalinistic and the chinese were maoist marxists etc.
It's a hypothetical statement that shouldn't change anything but supporters of those ideologies like it to legitimize their way of thinking and "dreams" for the future.
A distinct disconnection with history and politics leads to this combined with a need to rebel in young years. Besides, most of us are too stupid to come up with new ideas so we recycle supposedly good ones from the past, especially marxist ones. (nationalsozialismus was based on marxist theories aswell.... Marx was a badass motherfucker when it comes to inspiring horrible regimes)
Gabriel Taylor
Communism had one unifying established philosophy from Marx that was independent from these states. You could argue the dictators merely used communism as a vessel to gain power and their leadership afterwards varied, but communism still exists as a concrete entity. Fascism, on the other hand, lacked some clearly outlined philosophy. If Mussolini had written a book definitively outlining Fascist ideals, which all other fascists then cited as their inspiration, it would be different. As it was, Mussolini really flip-flopped throughout his life. I'd say he's one of the most opportunistic leaders out of all the fascists.
Matthew Brown
one bunch of many many authoritarian revolutionaries one day called their movement as fascist. Later on the term was used as a generic insult for the "really really bad guys". The term did not mean much to begin with and has lost all meaning nowadays.
if your local authoritarian revolutionary happens to be a commie then he is of-course totally-not-a-fascist
Wyatt Long
Communism has a concrete belief structure that has been enumerated in many volumes of work you can measure a regimes deviation from. Liberalism too is a coherent doctrine with centuries of thought as philosophical underpinnings.
Fascism is a hodgepodge of ideas and never had any defining doctrine. Even Mussolini's own Fascist Manifesto is more like a short list of policy demands puffed up with syndicalist & futurist rhetoric than a "Das Kapital" and as a definition of what 'pure fascism' is suppose to be it comes woefully short of encompassing the ideas that would spring in other Fascist movements like National Socialism or Iron Guard.
Ethan Phillips
>nationalsozialismus was based on marxist theories aswell It really wasn't. The doctrine wouldn't make any sense at all in a marxist context. How would you justify nationalism if the proletariat is international? And as for economy, national socialism inherited that from the traditional distaste for usury, bankers and the rich industrialists (German national socialism had a distinctly lower-class rhetorics which targeted workers, even though Hitler himself preferred an alliance with the large industrialists, betraying the left wing of the NSDAP), rather than from marxist theory.
Colton Lewis
You're right in that there was no central standard made by a core group of philosophers and writers like Marx.
But you can infer in their goals and the result that fascism is essentially:
-Collectivist -Nationalist -Looking to the past for inspiration -Traditional Role for Church -People have a few personal freedoms but you're encouraged to be content with your lot in life -Militarist or strong emphasis on the military having a critical role in politics -Foreign Policy based on real politiks and expansionism -State Corporations
Nazism takes these and adds a greater emphasis on nationalism by ethnic lines and the hierarchy of races.
Luis Richardson
"Fascism" is one of the things that actually can be labelled a spook.
Dominic Davis
National socialism is probably the most clear description. But just raw fascism? I think like a blend of traditionalism, conservative values and socialism.
Noah White
litteraly none of those
Easton Scott
...
Elijah Mitchell
Then it doesn't exist.
Jose Edwards
Frankly, fascism seems more like a method, or the idea of motion for no other purpose but itself.
Isaac Cook
>There is no way of exercising a spiritual influence on the things of the world by means of a human will-power commanding the wills of others, without first having a clear conception of the particular and transient reality on which the will-power must act, and without also having a clear conception of the universal and permanent reality in which the particular and transient reality has its life and being.
Jeremiah Wilson
>tfw people keep telling you that Trump is a fascist but he still hasn't replaced the Senate with a corporate trade union congress
Kayden Perry
whats the reasoning behind this braindead post
Justin Sanchez
Fascism was the fruit of a different time. It was basically the wet dream of 19th century plutocrats. An authoritarian warmongering regime, but fundamentally populist so the people will sheep it up, propping up national corporations that have a strong say on policies. Only international banking or multinational corps can get sweeter deals than that!
Gabriel Thompson
>populist no
Wyatt Phillips
Fascism has a lot in common with socialism. Besides focusing on the nation Mussolini didn't change his rhetoric.
Jace Campbell
fascism is opposed to class struggle
Jaxon Moore
IMO there's elements of fascism that are essential to the core (corporatism, nationalism, militarism) but beyond that, yeah it's vague as it should be. Fascism is a highly nationalist ideology so it would make sense that it takes on features specific to different countries. Italian fascism should not look like Spanish fascism should not look like Argentinian fascism should not look like hypothetical American fascism. Each should be a unique reflection of their state and culture.
Cooper Williams
Fascism is just the right wing collectivist answer to socialism.
Tyler Myers
>house of corporations Mosley was a fuck
Ian Roberts
IF YOUR TOPIC IS FASCISM, WHY DO YOU ATTACH AN IMAGE OF A NATIONAL SOCIALIST MEDALLION?
Nathan Campbell
It's not right-wing though, Hitler wasn't angling to reinstall the Kaiser.
Thomas Collins
Right wing doesn't automatically mean monarchist or even traditionalist, Hitler was a radical right-winger who sought a national rebirth, not the restoration of the ancien regime.
Charles Edwards
>Fascists themselves remained intentionally ambiguous as to what Fascism even was,
No they did not. Read a book
Even racial prejudice wasn't uniquely fascistic. Race has nothing to do with fascism. You are confusing fascism and national socialism.
the things that made fascism unique (more direct management of the economy, war mongering and a curtailing of civil rights) was also done by the westen allies and the Soviet Union.
This is a stupid sentence and your teacher should be very cross with you. Something cannot be unique AND be done by others.
Jaxon Harris
Fascism is >Tribalist >Prioritizing national or cultural rebirth >Imperialist >Authoritarian >Collectivist Prove me wrong
Carter Hernandez
>This is a stupid sentence and your teacher should be very cross with you. Something cannot be unique AND be done by others. That's the point. Policies that were perceived to be unique to fascism are not unique at all.
Also, learn how to quote newfig
Dominic Perez
>Tribalist
Unless you count Romaboo civic nationalism as a tribe.
Jason Watson
I actually do count Italian fascism as tribalist, yes.
Bentley Torres
Nick Land wrote an article about his feelings about fascism: ultimately it's just the legitimization of war-powers to do things domestically other than raising an army to send abroad. Every power in WWII engaged in it and fascism won thoroughly over non-fascist capitalism, non-fascist conservativism, non-fascist liberalism, and non-fascist communism. It won so completely that no one bats an eye governments just randomly declaring war on other countries or even abstract entities in order to justify the continuation of war powers.
I'm not disagreeing with your assessment, I'd just say that "Fascism" the ideology was just a loose collection of platforms and beliefs held together by the desire to achieve them via war powers. The Italian Fascists may have wanted all of that, but FDR and Stalin (two famous users of Fascism) did not.
>inb4 'WAAAAAAAAH I DONT WANT TO READ A SOURCE THAT ISN'T IN MY SAFE SPACE'
Michael Price
Joke: antifascists are the real fascists Broke: fascists are the real fascists Woke: all complex societies are inherently fascistic
Kevin Collins
>ultimately it's just the legitimization of war-powers to do things domestically other than raising an army to send abroad
How absurdly reductionist. Didn't the USSR do exactly the same thing? Are all totalitarian states fascist to this clown?
Cooper Lee
Yes it's pretty much known that the average """fascist""" of today has no idea what the word means and just want to seem edgy and contrarian
Samuel Carter
>thinks the USSR was not fascist
Andrew Martinez
Well...so does the average "antifascist"...
Nathaniel Walker
Did you miss the part where he said that Stalin used fascism?
Anthony Reed
This obnoxious namefag is correct. National Socialism is not the same as fascism and only got lumped in with it because of the "winners write history" meme and because of the aforementioned vagueness of fascism in general.
Easton White
You missed racialized conception of the people of a nation.
I would also strongly disagree with the part about the traditional role of the church thing.
Josiah King
>race is a feeling, 95% at least >*bans miscegenation* what the fuck was his problem?
Samuel Parker
>antifascists are the real fascists I would say there's no worse thinker than Dinesh D'emsare but people like Kristol exist too.
