Pascal's wager

It wasn't meant as a serious philosophical reason to be a theist, rather it was intended to be a criticism of the thinkers of the time who claimed to deal only in reason whilst still rejecting God (not that I believe they aren't compatible but Pascals wager is a good criticism of it) . In terms of probability it's correct, but the wager itself won't create any true worshippers so it's self defeating.

I'm not talking about Jesus, Mohamed or Moses, I'm talking about God.
If he does exist, what qualifies as being good person?
For example, is it really my belief in God and his ways that led me to become a Christian and a believer?
Or is it the fact that I'm calculating the ifs and maybes, that's basically Pascals argument.

so we're in hell right now?

what is there to wage? there's no life after death

>
>so we're in hell right now?
What's afterlife?

>that's the wager

you didn't answer the question. this thread is implicitly about Xianity.
If the conventional vision of the Xian God is correct it would seem rather churlish for Him to say fear of hell is an illegitimate motivation for obedience since He's constantly threatening us with it.

I have long since learned, as a measure of elementary hygiene, to be on guard when anyone quotes Pascal.

there's nothing to wage
there isn't life after death
it's literally impossible

I think you're a little confused there buddy, why did you name this thread Pascals wager?

Guys i'm supposed to call my girlfriend who lives overseas in a few hours. should i go to sleep and 95% likelihood fuck it up and oversleep or stay up the rest of the night which i've already started to do?

What time is it?
What are you watching?
Anything important to do tomorrow?

4 in the morning in my time zone
watching?
No, I don't leave the house
>don't ask

you're choosing to believe and therefore act in a Christian manner based on the ifs and maybes.

Text your gf you're tired but send her warm kisses and a picture of you in bed, the go to sleep, sleep is better than sex.
Also lucid dream.

>Not assimilating both Buddhist and Christian Philosophy into a far-right imperialist ideology

if you can be convinced of the reality of hell, than yes

>it's literally impossible
[citation needed]

You say it's possible you'll go to heaven or hell for literally any reason. Maybe God will send you to hell for not believing in him. Maybe he'd send you to hell for believing in him. Maybe he'll send you to hell for not being a vegetarian. Maybe he'll send you to hell for wearing socks with sandals. These all carry equal weight because we're talking about infinite stakes here.

*You can say

>pledge your loyalty to yahweh
>get your soul devoured by ammit
oops

>Pascal's Wager

Why are people reading and talking about such a blatant case of sophistry again?

>amiserable
>embarassement
etc etc
irvine welsh would stone cold kill whoever made that fucking picture

the fact that christianity circled the old world and kept near true to its roots should stand testament to its integrity, and never said it was the right religion, you were jumping the gun on a discussion that hadnt even begun.

>kept near true to its roots
this statement is...dubious.

Should everyone have their own unique god, with the only thing these gods have in common is that they all let everyone into heaven? Kind of like a lottery syndicate.

why exactly is it sophistricated

I'll tangentially answer this question with a person anecdote. I went through a stage of about a year and a half where I was suicidal. I watched a video by Teal Swan (a real Devil) that said you won't go to Hell if you kill yourself. Thanks GOD I found some religious articles on the web from every religion saying that you definitely will. I am no longer suicidal.

for you it is, meat

are people on Veeky Forums starting to larp as vampires and zombies now...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't necessarily go to hell for suicide.

>is it rational to base it on fear?
wow...im speechless

No.

You're missing the point entirely

>start studying the greeks last week
>learn what a sophist is
>see the word sophisticated

Fuck

DESU anecdotes like these and my personal experiences with church (quaint, rural northern protestants, nice people), are why I'm not explicity antitheist.

>Is it rational to follow Christianity merely based on fear of damnation?
No, because following Christianity precludes following any of the other myriad competing religions, each of which could potentially be the "right" one.

tl;dr - Christianity is no guarantee against damnation.

By that logic you'd be justified in jumping off a cliff because so your friends don't call you a pussy.

So no, that's retarded.

But I'm a Christian and believe in God.

But some are more likely to be corect than others.

Christianity and Islam are the only extant religions that threaten people with eternal torment based on not following them.
I've narrowed it down to those two.
why?

Whether or not this is bait, I'll explain for people who may not know why the wager is flawed.

1. It assumes there is no cost to belief, when it inevitably alters your behavior in ways you may not wish.
2. It assumes that such faux-belief will "trick" god into letting you in to heaven.
3. It assumes that there is only one god to choose from and one hell to avoid.
4. It assumes that belief is a choice, rather than a compulsion.

it's like you didn't even bother to read the wikipedia article on the concept holy fuck this is wrong on almost every level.

Absolutely yes.

I'll add to its flaws.

Believing there is a God is not salvation; the devil knows there is a God, and he is damned.

One has claims made by eyewitnesses who all were killed for their beliefs without ever recanting.

The other was written 600 years after the fact on the whispers of an angel to a madman.

I hope your selection at this point is not complicated.

I hope you make wise use of the time you bought yourself.

He made it to confine the devil and his demons.

Carrot and stick.

Would you like to have a real relationship with the living God?

yes.
this is incredibly stupid.
as is this.

All me. If you want a relationship with the living God, you must do so on his terms.

Jesus: 32 AD, apostles were witnesses.
Mohammad: 630 AD, 600 years after the fact, claims to know what really happened. Says an angel told him.
This is just history. These are just facts.

Pascal's Wager leaves you damned whether you believe there is a God or not.

You are not ready for a relationship with the living God; you have no hunger for truth, no desire for it.

this is called begging the question.
Go fuck yourself.

>why was Jesus constantly threatening people with hellfire
He didn't

>the fact that christianity circled the old world and kept near true to its roots
Then why are there so many disagreements on the roots.

Judaism is Christianity's roots and it hasn't kept true to it at all.

It's all true.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There aren't. Jesus is God, and He rose from the dead.

Confess the first out loud, believe the second in your heart, and you're a Christian.

The presence of the New Covenant infers the inferiority of the Old Covenant.

It's not about reward or punishment, it's about atheism being a big nothing. But importantly he wanted to clean the world of people who lack conviction concerning their beliefs, as even an active disbelief in the existence of God and afterlife is better than a passive one.

Christ said he didn't come to abolish the Mosaic law.

>But importantly he wanted to clean the world of people who lack conviction concerning their beliefs, as even an active disbelief in the existence of God and afterlife is better than a passive one.
where does he say this?

No, because an omniscient god would know if you were just acting like a Christian to cover your ass rather than out of genuine faith.

Because you read the KJV Bible

explain

>rational
this assumes there is only one choice, you either have to be an atheist or believe in the Christian God, and completely ignores how you could just join another religion (or hell make up your own) that has doctrines compatible with your own personal beliefs, rather than submitting to stuff you find to be bullshit.
That and wouldn't God realize you're just pretending to be a Christian so you don't burn in hell if you don't actually adopt belief in Christian ideals

>if you don't actually adopt belief in Christian ideals
the question assumes you are in fact adopting them

>rational
>Religion
pick one

Pascal's wager is ultimately flawed because shitloads of religions exist.

>3754280

Are you adopting them like the more catholic than the pope true believer types? or just outwardly professing it. I mean internally I imagine most would be thinking "this is bullshit but hey got to pretend to go along with it to go to heaven"
but yeah still totally ignores how it's not a binary choice in the first place

Christianity and Islam are the only extant religions that threaten people with eternal torment based on not following them.
I've narrowed it down to those two.

It would be more like saying to God "I am substituting your judgement for yours" for the parts of Xian doctrine I find problematic.

My personal religion of the pink pony threatens you with eternal damnation if you don't join. You can call me great Guru.

This is a silly and flippant response.

my judgement for yours*

Idiots. The Christian God isn't the only possible template for a deific entity.

There are an infinite number of possible entities and an infinite variation on the mechanics of such an entity. The dominant "God" might be a trickster who rewards heresy and punishes dogma. Maybe his tricks resolve themselves in a timescale longer than the observable universe.

I don't see how Pascal Wager's is tenable in any way in support of a specific "Christian God". You have to be a terrible bettor and a terrible analyzer of possible motivations. A complete lack of abstract imagination on part of the shit sticks who keep pushing this retarded meme.

If The universe is governed by a malevolent God there is no hope for any of us regardless of what we believe.

The question is, why do believers of the doctrine of hell have kids?

1. "Be fruitful and multiply"
2. Fear of hell implies hope for heaven.

>following a religion solely because they threaten you if you don't
Do you do what someone says just because they threaten bad consequences if you don't?
it's shit coercion that only took on its graphic nature in the middle ages when the peasants needed to get reminded

>Do you do what someone says just because they threaten bad consequences if you don't?
All the time.
Do you your pay your taxes?

But what about chaotic gods? What about God's that reveal new facets as universal mechanisms spread out fractally? What about God's who are "good" and "evil" on a periodic basis?

It's not a question of merely "good" or "malevolent". Especially when you're talking about fundamental beings who are supposed to be higher order judges of values! What right do you have to presume such simple judgement on the creator if Leviathan and Behemoth?

What if a thousand years of darkness and hell and pain is required to prune the human spirit into higher nobility?

What about them? these are interesting possibilities but what do they imply about how we should conduct ourselves?

So most of you guys see god or gods as a hypothetical construct the way you post?

>What if a thousand years of darkness and hell and pain is required to prune the human spirit into higher nobility?
Judaism says everyone, exept for the most righterous, goes to Gehenna for at least 12 months before moving on

as opposed to what?
i think you have that reversed.
Only the most evil go to Gehenna at most for 12 months before either moving on or being destroyed.

Nothing other than that you can't trust Pascal Wager because there's no sieve which can cut down the infinite possible permutations of a "deific entity".

It only makes sense if you're brain damaged and can't comprehend the infinite possible systems of mechanics which could have explanatory power.

Maya loves popping bubbles of reality.

Some of these possibilities are more likely than others.
I don't put much stock in religions that are either extinct or non-existent.

If you're going to sleep anyways then just do it, and set an alarm or someshit. It doesn't matter which you do so long as you properly commit to a course of action and plan accordingly.