We haven't had a Burgundy thread in a while

Thread theme: youtube.com/watch?v=XrYCyopfo9Y

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>be burgundian duke
>get killed

There was a 50% chance of getting killed if you were a Burgundian Duke.

Charles and Louis despised each other from the time Louis spent on Dijon. Also, being the king of France I wouldn't be pleased with one of my subjects conspiring with my rivals to crush me. There were also more direct conflicts, like the ownership of Picardy.

But the decline of Burgundy wasn't entirely Louis fault. The centralized ducal administration carried a lot of structural flaws from the times of Phillip the Good, and Charles' need for revenue to support the continuous war effort during his reign only worsened the situation by selling public charges to people not always competent enough. The internalized corruption in the system and the increasing costs of Charles campaigns in Alsace and Lorraine produced an absurd increase in taxes, which exhausted the duchy's resources and fomented a rebellious attitude among his subjects, already tired of Charles autoritharistic policies.
Had Charles been more diplomatic, thimgs would have gone better. But he simply wasn't patient nor flexible enough for the challenge he decided to face. While his centralizing project sowed unrest in his lands, his rapid expansion devoured the royal treasury and made the surrounding duchies team up with the enemies of Burgundy to crush him.

Ah, okay. I'll get there eventually but right now I'm on John the Fearless. Are there any good English language materials on Burgundy aside from the Dukes of Burgundy series?

based burgundibros, why were they so perfect

why was Charles found naked, so bizarre

Up until the mid 19th century the dead were always stripped.

Clothing was still worth something back then. Even someones linen or silk underwear would be a couple of days wages.

Burgundian dukes were known for their lavish apparel as well, so it's not surprising in the slightest.

>rich boy dies
>his clothes are worth more than what you will ever earn in your lifetime
you'd be a fool not to steal his clothes

pastebin.com/TVBVcJ0M
You're welcome

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>why was Charles found naked, so bizarre
Because he had the brilliant idea to face the Swiss in his gilded suit of armour.
The split his face and fed him to the dogs, which is nice by Swiss standards of the time, check the fate of Rudolf Stuessi for when Swiss went full chimp.

>ywn explore vast swathes of French forest and Swiss mountains for the first time with your Mannerbund bros
>ywn put Roman towns to sword and fire
>ywn see demigods heroes like Siegfried in person
>ywn die fighting defending King Gunther against ugly gook huns
>ywn avenge the Massacre at Worms
>ywn get revenge on the gooks at Chalons
Fuck man, the Volkerwanderung must have been one of the most adventurous times in human history for peoples like the Burgundians. At least they're represented in Attila.

Can someone give me a quick rundown on Burgundy? Why is Veeky Forums the only part of the internet that cares about it?

How do I get the Burgundian Inheritance to fire as Austria?

Because it de facto ceased to exist 1477 and as such is a niche item of history. Also it is fucking complicated because it was a pre modern entity and having a medieval state with multiple languages and territories doesn't make things easier.

lol just go to war for 60 years bro!

Also it was technically not independent and a fief/duchy held by a cadet branch of the french royal family, and to make things more compicated the dukes would often align with the HRE or ots constituent states against the french crown and moreover it held territories that were historically part of the HRE so the conflicting allegiances were there (e.g duchy or burgundy being french and franche compte being HRE, and a huge war being sparked by the succession of these territories to Charles V vs Franciss claims

I'm still not sure if this was part of the Swiss master plan, eliminate the buffer state between the HRE and France, 500 years of near constant war for them and peace and quiet for the Swiss because the asshole neighbours are killing each others.

I feel stupid for asking this, but was the color named after the country?

Swiss are worse than eternal anglo, so yes i reckon youre right

actually the color was named after the burgundy wine.

>Swiss are worse than eternal anglo
Thats a bit harsh, they haven't bothered anyone in the last 500 years.
Ok, they might have pulled some strings here and there, but they were discrete.

>*collapses your finances*
>dies peacefully in sw*tzerland after “ retiring” from france as the revolution radicalized
>meanwhile sw*ss peasant mercenaries get cucked on bastille day by cuck king Louis and later btfo at Tuileries
Discrete indeed.

thats an old europa version. im fokin crying :(

>peasant
No such thing with Swiss mercenaries, they were freemen at least.

>King of Burgundy
>King
Jesus Christ Paradox

Peasant doesnt mean unfree senpai. It jist means farmer commoner. Such people could be veru wealthy, Martin luthers and zwinglis fathers being a case in point

>Peasant doesnt mean unfree senpai. It jist means farmer commoner.
No it doesn't, peasants are unfree (not a legal person) people/social class of the medieval living under feudal lords. Check the dictionary or wiki for more details.

Medieval society, especially Germanic societies like Switzerland had a very strict social order, and peasants were non existent in the Swiss system.
Even in other countries they wouldn't do any military service, because weapons and military service are the privilege and duty of free men.

What is the correct word for free agricultural workers?

I think you're mistaken with serf lad

Depends on the language/region and time. Like northern Germany where they had feudalism and free men at the same time has at least half a dozen distinctions between different classes of farmers, distinguished by their legal status and landholdings. Like Huber and Maier, some of the most common German names indicate a full free farmer with a full sized farm, respectively half sized farm (tax value)

No lad, I'm not. peasant indicates a non free man, be it slave, serf or free tenant. The main distinction is being a legal person or being subject to lord/master who acts as a pater familia.

All peasant means is “paysant” meaning countryside dweller, usually referring to subsidtence farmers or farmers with small means. Peasants can be free or unfree, theyre simply “small farmers” of any variety

look mate, your semantics won't change neither how the term is used in historical science nor will it change the social structure of medieval HRE. I suggest you read up on the topic.

Yes, but you said a peasant was not a legal person, which wasn't true in a lot of cases

It doesnt it refers to a DE JURE low social status but peasants can get quite wealthy in the right economic landscape and if theyre resourceful. It all depends on the historical region. Historians ive read itherwise wouldnt ise “free peasantl because that would be a contradiction in terms according to you

Thos is the literal definition it says NOTHING about being free or unfree

What is the English word?

Hoerige != Freie. Peasant != freemen
I think you are mistaking dirtpoor farmers in general with peasants. Interestingly, money didn't had much to do with it, but the legal status. If one could act as a legal person by himself he was free men. If the person was legally bonded to to a lord/master then its a peasant. Some tenants could be way wealthier than many free men, but still be a peasant.

>phoneposter
Look, either take it that peasant is used in history to describe an unfree class of agricultural labourers or don't. I'm not gonna answer to your semantics again.

Your pic says:
>free tenant

Peasant can refer to a legal status (as in Sweden and other communes and statelets of the HRE, where peasants made up a distinct estate/caste with its own privileges and obligations in economic social and legal realms). In some regions peasants are unfree, for example in Prussian lands and roughly east germany. They are still legal subjects but they are defined more jy obligations than privileges ((e.g. tax on their harvest, paying in kind or in coinage, legal restrictions on movement, lord is also the head of local judiciary, mist give certain amount of days per week for labor, subject to harsh corporal punishment, capable of being moved by lord for economic purposes and must allow lord to hunt through hos land ootebtislly threatening his crops to stampede, forbidden from fishing and hunting on lords ponds lakes and forests) this peasant is essentially no different than a serf and is in fact a legal subject par excellence

Its funny because im pretty well versed in middle sge and early modern history yet your so hilariously patronizing, i suspect because your arguing from some nationalistic sentiment or another historical tradition in french or german and so youre confusing the semantics more than i am

I'm happy that this year's Burgundy thread is about peasants.

What are modern burgundians like? Do they have a regional identity or are they the same as parisians?

>modern burgundians
there is no such thing, because Burgundian wasn't a nationality, at least not during high medieval. Like they had different languages and everything.

Charles the Bold and his predecessors essentially forged a unified Netherlands which is the basis for modern history of the benelux countries. Its the reason we can speak of a united netherlands or belgium, two countries that were divided by historical contingencies and geopolitics rather than through some natural process based on geography or confessional divides.

There is a modern place of Burgundy, inhabited by Frenchmen.
>Bourgogne-Franche-Comté (French pronunciation: [buʁɡɔɲ fʁɑ̃ʃ kɔ̃te], sometimes abbreviated BFC; meaning Burgundy–Free County) is a region of France created by the territorial reform of French Regions in 2014, from a merger of Burgundy and Franche-Comté. The new region came into existence on 1 January 2016, after the regional elections of December 2015.[1]

I guess he is asking about them.

In other words, had Philip II not gone full autist or had the “Dutch” (which actually started in Flanders and Brabant aka Southern netherlands/modern belgium) revolt been able to kick out the Spaniards entirely (though probably impossible in those days) or had Philip reconquered the Northern Netherlands, its 100 percent guaranteed that wed have a modern United Netherlands. Southern and Northern Netherlands are born out of political expediency, not any kind of historical inevitability

Do you think those Swiss guys were at least impressed by Charles the Bold's dick when they stripped him?

This, but unironically

Agreed, problem is just that historically Burgundy is split today amongst several nations, even their core territory. Much worse, they have different languages, like parts speak French (dialect) and German (Swiss dialect).
For example there is a cultural demarcation line running right trough Switzerland, they speak a Swiss German dialect on both sides of the line, but one sides holds distinctive Alemannic traditions, the other side holds distinctive Burgundian traditions. Like in one village the cows are brown, playing cards are German, and inheritance laws (farms don't get split) favour the eldest son, in the next village the cows are black and white, playing cards are French and the youngest son gets the farm. That line is exactly the old border between the Duchy of Burgundy and the Alemannic Duchy from over a thousand years ago.
Irony of history, albeit the Swiss destroyed Burgundy, they are the last ones that have distinctive Burgundian legal and cultural traditions alive.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brünig-Napf-Reuss_line

Did you know that castrating enemies and taking souvenirs was a cherished tradition with the Swiss mercs?

yeoman

Is that a landed class?

Does anyone have Burgundy pictures?

>drinking a liquid in which you and another 30 people bathe
Not a good idea

Any recommendations for intro-tier books about Burgundy?

Just search for Jan van Eyck, Rogier van der Weyden and other flemish artists. Burgundian dukes commisioned a shit ton of works from most of them.

see

from the Burgundian Ceasar tapestry

Totally worht it!

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Is there any lasting influence of Burgundy?

they kinda helped with the northern renaissance in the low countries

Helping the Eternal Habsburg fuck up Europe for centuries to come.

I heard the Dutch wore black because it was in fashion with the dukes of Burgundy. Do you believe that?

I went to the pub and this female German bartender asks me "Where are you from? Burgundy?". What a strange question, I thought! Where else could I be from? What with my Australian accent and bronze-gold skin colour I said "Here. I was born here." She looked at me with disdain and rolled her eyes "Nevermind!" she said.

I don't get it.