Nerves control muscular function. Nerves branch off of spinal cord. Spinal cord travels through vertebrae. Chiropractors improve alignment of vertebrae, therefore increase functionality/nerve impulse from the spinal cord. There still seems to be a stigma related to Chiropractors and PTs seem to be more recommended. Can Veeky Forums explain?
Nerves and spine
Cameron Martinez
Other urls found in this thread:
chappellhealth.com
avidclinic.com
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
europepmc.org
sciencedirect.com
europepmc.org
sciencedirect.com
web.a.ebscohost.com
twitter.com
Bentley Williams
Nice bro science there, bud
Blake Walker
Bro science? Is there a disconnect somewhere that I'm missing? I just don't understand the negativity attached to the practice. Do you have a negative experience with it?
Juan Perez
chiropractic is pseudoscience, go look at the wikipedia page and look at subluxation, its fucking retarded. Theres no evidence for it except for where it overlaps with physiotherapy and it can do harm.
Cooper Baker
/thread
Ryan Turner
Vertebral subluxation*
Liam Brown
Dogs have four legs
Cats have four legs
Therefore dogs are cats
That's what your post reads like.
Isaiah Watson
But multiple studies have shown that chiropractic alone has improved reaction times and overall function.
chappellhealth.com
avidclinic.com
This is the journal of neurological science, not pseudoscience. Give me one scientific, biomechanical reason that you think chiropractic can cause harm.
Of course bad chiropractors can have ill effects but so can bad MDs and bad Surgeons.
Nathan Watson
Different analogy. I'm saying if A+B=C then increasing A will also increase C.
Camden Miller
I'm not gonna go do a lit review of chiropractic but even a broken clock is right twice a day. There's many reasons they could have found results even though chiropractic is bullshit (e.g., maybe it worked but not for the reason they thought, maybe the finding was a false positive) . If a study isn't properly designed or implemented, its hard to tell what actually caused an improvement in functioning or reacition time. Just take a look at the theory behind it and there's absolutely no evidence for it, someone just made it up a long ass time ago and people are still just rolling with it. Why do you think medicine is the one making all the actual advances in health research while chiropractic and naturopathic methods end up on Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz.
Isaiah Sanchez
and for if it causes harm, tihs is from wiki but you can go look at the paper it cites : A 2009 review evaluating maintenance chiropractic care found that spinal manipulation is routinely associated with considerable harm and no compelling evidence exists to indicate that it adequately prevents symptoms or diseases, thus the risk-benefit is not evidently favorable.[152].
And thats not a single study, its a metaanlysis which combines multiple studies and is more compelling than a single study
Josiah Wood
>chappellhealth.com
>avidclinic.com
Ahh yes, the famously reliable and definitely unbiased New Zealand School Of Chiropactic. So reputable the sites you linked to needn't even bother citing the study.
Andrew Torres
And as for your analogy, nerve cells don't work like that. If they aren't severed and are properly insulated (i.e., myelinated) then they will conduc "impulses" fine. The spinal chord can't block neural activity unless a vertebrae actually severes a neuron in which case you've done irreversible damage anyways.
Isaiah Torres
lol lots of typos but you get the point
Isaiah Perry
A short Google search, I admit. But still, the more good science that goes into chiropractic the more we see the specific benefits. Like how much force is applied in what angle and the patient's response to that particular adjustment. This is thanks to a new technology called a force sensing table. Granted the research behind chiropractic hasn't fit into the ideal scientific method, but it's getting better. Remember when MDs used leeches for everything? Every practice takes time to refine. Also it's proven that nerve compression reduces the impulse and therefore reduces the functionality of the muscle or organ it innervates. The nerve doesn't have to be completely severed to interrupt the impulse.
Jonathan Butler
I think part of the reason for MDs dominance is the fact that it gained popularity first, and that the general public doesn't want to do its own research. Not to mention the national case of the American medical association vs the American chiropractic association where the AMA had the intention of completely destroying the chiropractic profession all together, the ACA won by the way. And people haven't just "been rolling with it" it's been gaining popularity for more than a century now. I'm really just curious to know if any fitsters here have had a positive or negative experience with chiropractic.
Jaxson Reyes
Well honestly I don't know the research on nerve compression and maybe you're right about that, but to say that compression is "blocking the impulse" leading to organs which in turn causes diseases which we already know the cause of is definitely not right. Look you can believe what you want, you asked for evidence of how it could cause hard and why and I gave it to you. Up to you if you wanna re-evaluate your beleives or just rationalize still beleiving in it. I don't mean to be a dick but your reasoning as to why it sould work in your opening post shows a complete lack of understanding of neuroanatomy and no valid discipline would try to oversimply such a vast number of problems (not saying you are doing this, but chiropractic does) and reduce it to spinal misalignment. But really, if you want really think critically about chiropractic, you should go read some articles on why its considered ineffective and a pseudoscience instead of just looking up articles that show it works, otherwise you're just going to confirm your beleifs.
Hunter Turner
>But still, the more good science that goes into chiropractic the more we see the specific benefits.
>i posted some trash in evidence of my position but still, lets act as though it wasn't
The more good science that goes into chiropractic the less it differs from invasive placebo.
>Remember when MDs used leeches for everything?
Yeah it was back when evidence based medicine wasn't considered important, we don't live in such a time anymore so chiropractic has no excuse.
Elijah Cox
Chiropractic doesn't cure everything. Maybe not even more that 40-50% of all diseases. I'm just talking about muscular function. I should have clarified. I think people who lift or or even provide body builders could gain an advantage from chiropractic. The negative effect articles seem to keep citing "several hundred cases " of adverse effects, but there are millions if not more adjustments every year. Including those taking place within professional sports organizations. Also I have plenty of education regarding anatomy and neurology, and nerves
compression is very much a real issue. Here's what the ncbi says
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I see the articles claiming chiropractic is bad, but it's not as strong an argument as the positive.
Parker Brown
Specifically you're right about the myelination but compression can damage the myelin sheath
Ryder Allen
Sorry didnt mean to sound like a dick, what I meant was that what you said is an oversimplifcation. And just because something sounds logical, does not mean its right, thats why we have science to test things. And chiropractic has not stood up well to scientific testing, and has not embraced it either.
I think the issue is probably that manual manupulation does work in specific cases and does have some effects, but that does not mean the theory underlying chiropractic is correct. Personally, I won't trust any discipline that isn't completely transparent and that actively tries to ignore scientific evidence to hold onto 100 year old beleifs, even if some of it works. I'd rather go to a PT and have the same thing administered by someone who is aware of the limitations of their practice.
Austin Hughes
Even supposing it isn't bad does not mean that it isn't of dubious value.
Homeopathy has zero complications(being pretty much water) and by placebo effect alone the positives must outweight the negatives, that doesn't mean it isn't an ineffective treatment peddled by quacks.
>Also I have plenty of education regarding anatomy and neurology, and nerves
Not much on the scientific method it seems.
>Including those taking place within professional sports organizations.
Ohh well that changes things, must be good then if sportsmen are doing it.
Jaxson Sullivan
Studies have shown it's better than a placebo... across the board it's either placebo group = some improvement, chiropractic group= more improvement. Or placebo =none, chiro= significant. That's what I've found at least. I'd be happy to look at others. Just want to get to the bottom of this
Cooper Howard
What part of the scientific method am I missing?
Jonathan Rogers
But man, you can't say this when we already gave you evidencetahat its not better than a placebo across the board... Literally two seconds of google scholar and theres this 2003 paper: "Spinal manipulative therapy for low back pain: a meta-analysis of effectiveness relative to other therapies" that concludes "There is no evidence that spinal manipulative
therapy is superior to other standard treatments for patients with
acute or chronic low back pain." So atleast dont say its been shown to work better than a palcebo across the board
Benjamin Gray
Nah man you don't sound like a dick, you make good points. From what I've seen. Chiros are doing their best do incorporate solid science in their practice and research.
Would you trust a chiro who acknowledged his limitations and could back up his reason for treatment in science?
Also PTs are giving minimal training in regards to manipulation while modern chiros attend a three year doctorate program specifically for adjustment/manipulation. Would that effect your opinion at all?
Gabriel Baker
ignore that actually just realised thats not comparing to placebo, let me find another
Josiah Edwards
>Studies have shown it's better than a placebo
It's more invasive and involved than a placebo, not every form of placebo control is equal in efficacy and by it's nature it's hard to adequately dupe someone into thinking they're having a chiropractic treatment when they're not. Even with these shortcomings there's a wealth of evidence that it's basically ineffective.
Also post some of this compelling evidence that you've found.
Gavin Jackson
Probably not to be honest, its really not an evidence based discipline at this point, and if it does become one, then its not chiripractic anymore, its just medicine in which case I would trust that.
Fair point, but honestly I would rather trust a PT than someone with years of training based on the beleif in "vertebral sublimation", even if just more moral reasons desu, I'm in no way willing to support a disciple line chiropractic. And like I said, I would if they became transparent/evidence based and understood the scientific method, but in that case they would just be another medical technique.
Blake Ramirez
Fair enough, my bad, "across the board" was a false generalization. It's late and I'm lazy, but I feel you, a lot of studies come to that conclusion and a lot conclude that chiro is better than placebo. I guess my main question is would you see a chiro for chronic low back pain or other issues that effected your workout? Hypothetically, money or insurance is no issue. Why or why not
Austin Richardson
I think they genuinely want to be recognized as part of the medical community. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be chiropractors. I think they're history gives them a bad rap but currently, I like where they're heading
Xavier Miller
If there's evidence for its effectiveness I think its reasonable to, personally I feel very strongly about not supporting pseudoscience (im in clinical psychology and theres some really fucked up money grabs that I've seen another psychologist promote) and while it may work for that particular problem I won't support the discipline unless its a last resort.
Alexander Young
And to be clear, this one psychologist does in no way represent the discipline, no fucking clue how she got a PhD and neither did the rest of the psychologists/students. Also im tired and going to bed lol hope I answered your question
Xavier Harris
europepmc.org
Effect on adolescent hyperactivity
sciencedirect.com
Decrease in low back pain
europepmc.org
Reduces blood pressure.
sciencedirect.com
Chiro is better than muscle relaxers.
Again chiro better than placebo.
Granted it's all very small sample sizes. Also granted there are studies showing that there is little to no difference. But an effort is being made and I think there's something to it.
Anthony Ross
Nice chatting with you, thanks for the opinion
Lucas Green
I do yoga