What is the most effective LP routine in your opinion?

Doing main lifts with db is dumb because your strength is limited by weak tiny stabilizers, which make progression jumps more difficult. Also most db go up 5lb per hand, so you have to try to add 10lb to your total lift, rather than 5lb

Trying to progress twice the gap, with a harder progression = more stalls, WAY less gains

Dumbbell accessories are alright if they don't interfere with progression on the main lifts. For sure avoid arm isolations like the plague

T shirt version:

Mainlifts as per then:
A: dips, db curl
B: lat raise, shrugs (hold ALAP end of each set)
C: overhead tricep extension, hammer db curls

3x8-12 except 5x5 on shrugs

YMMV

This is literally dogshit, especially for a novice.

That's OCB, not mastest, newfag.

This, I would add dips and/or DB bench and hammer curls. It's fine vanilla though if you don't have the time.

So more or less fit's version of Greyskull as in OP which I am currently doing

I would prefer more db bench/dips and forget about close grip bench but it's definitely splitting hairs at that point.

So would it work to add lat raises to OHP day on phrak's gs?

>adding a press to phrak's
Mehhh

Reverse curls are good if you are looking for forearm extensor action.

Rows and pull ups are enough to where that isnt even necessary.

Strong Lifts.

>Pros vs SS
- Rows provide pulling movement to balance the daily pushing
- Early 5x5 work helps new trainees learn form
>Pros vs GSLP
- Less bloat, there is no good argument to have two curl variations in place
- No AMRAP deadlifts

>Also that "after" pic is masstest
OCB, on gear too.

People looking at that pic and thinking it's some godly beginner routine are setting themselves up for MASSIVE dissapointment. OCB is one of the best physiques to grace Veeky Forums, didn't do it as a beginner and wasn't natty.

Close grip bench is just if you don't have something to do dips on.

So can I completely switch close grip bench with dips? I kinda hate close grip bench

Why would a novice be doing dips or CGBP? All novice programs come with a ton of upper body pushing as is. If anything you should be looking to program in some pulling, shoulder health and core exercises at most.

Yes that would be ideal, in my opinion.

I am a big believer in trainin smaller muscles with higher frequency
m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1_FN1MaI5k

So you might only train delts with high intensity(intensity as in higher % of your 1rm) on ohp day, i will still do lighter fluff workouts where i focus more on volume - say doing some 10-20 rep ish weight to failure on side lat raise for one or two sets, then immediately start doing bodyweight side lat raise (flappy birds) to failure.

The burn and pump is incredible, and it wont really affect strength (since you are using babbyweight, and your delts can handle higher training freq.) or recovery.

How much should I be able to do barbell rows with respect to my bench? I can only do a little more than half the weight without shitty form desu

I have been doing op's for like a month.
Should I switch to Phrak then?
Womanlet who wants to lose weight btw, I don't think it's important but yeah i'm more interested in progressing than getting big.

Might still do the lateral raises or curls though, not sure

The program in the OP is saying as much. Hence the "or", which is different from bench and OHP alternating.

If the OP routine is being recommended as a novice routine, it shouldn't be. I switched to something similar at intermediate.

None of that matters for a novice.

Have you ever trained a raw beginner? The first 2 months is literally just learning form on a few core lifts.

Personally I like to keep them equal. So if you are benching 3x100kgx5, row the same.

I don't think it's intermediate, if you can progress your upper body lifts session-to-session, you are a beginner.

Texas Method and Madcows are examples of intermediate routines.

Might as well. It's a simpler routine and the extra stuff in the OP routine isn't really relevant to your goals.

Do neither until intermediate
While I largely agree with you, phrak's variant has symmetric pulling and pushing
Also core isolations are a shit.
Push press is much better for both core strength and core definition, and is a GREAT exercise to add in when you start to stall on OHP

user, what are your goals. It's tough to pick a routine and set a diet when you can't clearly explain what you want.

I guess I was talking more about the list of exercises, not the prescribed progression rate.

if anyone is struggling to find phrak's variant for whatever reason, it's pic related.

>While I largely agree with you, phrak's variant has symmetric pulling and pushing
Not if you add dips it won't. Regardless, a novice will grow chest/triceps at a very quick rate if they focus on progressing the exercises that are already in the program.
>Also core isolations are a shit.
Most of Veeky Forums just wants a 6-pack and isolation improves that.
>Push press is much better for both core strength and core definition, and is a GREAT exercise to add in when you start to stall on OHP
I can't comment as OHP is my strong point and I didn't stall until 70kg. I'm training two people right now and both get through OHP stalls with simple deloads and form adjustments. New trainers typically have poor form and more gains will come from correcting that compared to adding something new. I'm not a fan of beginner bloat, see as an example of something terrible.

I have my nasm cpt and currently 8 clients.

I dont even add in stabilizer endurance mesocycles to start off with in new clients unless they are old or super out of shape.

And yes, first you train form, then you train strength (then hypertrophy then power), but i feel higher frequency deltoid training is still a great habit for a novice, and it makes the transition to intermediatw programming smoother, as they are familiar with switching from low intensity workouts to high intensity, over the cource of a mesocycle

Sorry english isn't my best language

Uh, I just want to lose weight and hopefully get stronger. I want to lose around 16 pounds and I do cardio when I'm not lifting weights.

I just want to get stronger, hopefully don't get bigger while making muscles, I just want to look aesthetically good.

Beginner, intermediate and advanced is a function of progression rate. Exercises mean nothing in that regard.

You are no longer a beginner when you can no longer recover session-to-session. You are no longer intermediate when you can no longer progress week-to-week.

It's about getting strong enough that recovery times blow out and require new training frequencies and adjustments.

Just do Phrak's then. You won't accidentally get huge by lifting weights.

That's just Rippecuck's definition of novice/int/adv. Other people say different things.

>core isolation is better for getting a 6 pack than push press
This is the opposite of true.

Literally everything else i 1000% agree with (hence me also saying not to add dips)

supplementing this post, I'll add that this type of progression will differ largely between people in terms of time frame. this is where it becomes important to focus on your routine, and also why some people prefer to design their own intermediate+ 'splits'.

My concern is that beginners read what you just wrote and try and incorporate that stuff into their routines. By the end of it they have SS + side lat raises + the first thing google told them when they looked up 'stabalizers'. It only serves to distract.

>i feel higher frequency deltoid training is still a great habit for a novice
I don't disagree, I just don't like telling people to add stuff to a beginner programs because I've seen what they morph them into.

>hopefully don't get bigger while making muscles
See how this thread is full of guys who are struggling to get bigger? You won't accidentally get huge.

Pick any routine that focuses on compound exercises with linear progression (SS, SL, GSLP etc) and eat at a -500 deficit. Read the sticky for more diet calculation information.

Also, set yourself an objective goal and meet it. If 16 pounds is your goal, set it and achieve it, don't swap routines until you hit it.

It's also correct. But if you want to make up definitions to make yourself feel better go for it.

Allright, yeah I read the sticky and have been doing great, I was just asking since I was wondering if maybe it would suit me better to switch now.

Thanks

On Veeky Forums we use the definition provided in practical programming as the standard definition, virtually without exception.

>core isolation is better for getting a 6 pack than push press
I didn't say that. I said that core isolations aren't shit.

Then I said that I can't comment on push press.

Garrett Blevins made a video like 20 minutes ago explaining his version of it.

OP here so I am kinda confused. Would it be better for me to switch to Phrak's GSLP from fit's alltogether or just remove dips and closegrip bench while keeping the dumbbell movements?

Routines really are overhyped here. Certainly if trying to lose weight it's going to be all about your diet. There are a few tried and true routines that you really can't go wrong with, stick with those and you will be well served.

phrak's days make much more sense. much more symmetrical routine overall, and will serve you better in the linear long run.

make the switch entirely, Veeky Forums's GSLP was designed to be sold to DYELs, especially with those """"""""""""""accessories"""""""""""""".

What are your goals? Height? Weight? Lifts?

Once you write down objectively what you want to achieve, finding the lifting plan that suits best is easy.

>core isolations arent shit
They totally are, though

100% yes.

Phrak's is GOAT

Veeky Forums's greyskull is like the ICF of greyskull (a meme)

I can only disagree. The sentiment of 'squat, deadlift and cut and you will be fine' really only holds if you have a decent squat/dead, which most people don't have and have no desire to have.

You can rep 3 and 4 plate respectively and still have an underwhelming core.

I started 80kg on a cut and I am now 70kg after 5 months. I want to cut pronanly 3 or 4 kilos more then I will be relatively lean and will have a good base to bulk up and make muscle. Height is 174cm
Current Lifts (x5 reps)
Bench Press: 61kg
Squat:70kg
Deadlift:75kg (probably could do more but kinda scared do increase due to injury etc)
OHP:40kg
I can do 4 reps of bodyweight chinups (couldn't even do 1 before)

My goal is to get acceptably strong but mainly bulk up to my original weight and stay around 12% bf for aesthetics once I finish cutting

>Muh rate of progression
>Muh 2000 different beginner routines that all look the same
>Muh gotta optimise muh first 6 months of training or I'll run out of gains
Just pick one and try hard, and learn decent form in all the lifts. If you're new to lifting you probably don't have the knowledge anyway to tell what routine is better and what advice from Veeky Forums you can trust.

You cannot push press 2pl8 and not have an visibility at 16+% and a stronk core.

Squat and dead are shit for abs.

Isolations are too

Okay. Certainly those lifts look to be well in the beginner range so a beginner routine would suit very well. You have listed Bench, Squat, Deadlift, OHP and Chinups. So I imagine you want to progress these. Thus you could happily choose from:

SS, SL, GSLP or Phraks.

Trick is though, which ever one you choose. Don't modify it. Pick one that on paper looks like what you want and stick with it

Right, which is why us autists argue until we reach an undisputed consensus that becones sticky-tier advice.

...only to have newfags ask if that sticky really is a meme or not

My problem with that is that most people don't want to push press 2 plate and even if they did it would take arguably years to get there. That's a crazy requirement for a defined core.

Most of Veeky Forums don't give a shit about getting strong, they just want a gf.

I have been doing the OP pic but I might switch to Phrak's

Okay. Just remember this is a marathon not a race, you will need patience. Don't get itchy feet and swap your routine again in 2 months.

We will ask if sticky is a meme if in every tread you make fun of SS

>gslp or phrak's
Phrak's is gslp

There is no standard gslp, only variants.

Veeky Forums's variant is newer and more retarded than phrak's

Have you never read the book?
You should, it is amazing.

Talks up the importance of neck extensor training a bit, which is good for wrestlers and football players who are susceptible to neck injuries, but unnecessary for most Veeky Forumsizens looking for assthedicks

>Have you never read the book?
>You should, it is amazing.
No I haven't. I read and did SS->TM as a novice.

OP here I read the important parts of the book and I try to also implement the frequency chinups but to me fit's version seemed better than Phrak's due to added arms work (SS+GOMAD threads made me paranoid kek)
Those neck extensions are a meme though

Here is the real deal:
Starting strength is legit advice, given by a man frustrated by three decades of hungry skellies who wannabe NFL linebackers complaining that no matter how much they eat (in reality probably like 1,800kcal) they just cannot gain weight or strength.

As a result he gives some very silly, very wacky (just plain wrong,desu) advice that is bery helpful for """""""""hardgainers"""""""" to hear.

Most of Veeky Forums is sedentary as fuck, almost entirely coming from fatty mode or skinnyfat mode. The occasional skelly from time to time.

So 100% of his nutritional advice is the opposite of what 99% of Veeky Forums needa to hear.

If you ignore his advice on nutrition and olympic lifts, it is golden.

Source the nutrition info from lyle mcdonald or eric helms.

I did SS as a skinny fat and ate enough to put on 12kg over 6 months, which is standard +500 surplus (Rip only recommended GOMAD for people crying they can't put on weight).

I did put on a good chunk of fat, but I made my first ever muscle gains on that routine and got my lifts from/to (3x5):

>Bench
35kg -> 85kg
>OHP
25kg -> 57.5kg
>Squat
50kg -> 110kg
>Deadlift
70kg -> 160kg

The routine worked exactly as prescribed. I got bigger and I got stronger. I did a quick cut after that whilst maintaining my lifts and moved on. SS works. After years of P90X, 5 day splits and other garbage on my bedroom floor, SS is the first time I ever made actual gains.

Yes you are right I know in the book he mentions that is only for people who can't gain
But SS+GOMAD makes a good meme desu.
Other than that his book is nice for form

You are dumb and wrong.
ignore the ss memes, before you fuck up your delt:arm ratio.

If your biceps are too small, train back more. Your back muscular is large and strong. It can handle much more training volume than your biceps.

your pectoral and deltoid muscle can similarly handle more training volume than your smaller, weaker tricep

If you want more bicep, train back more

Otherwise you end up looking like a DYEL with surgically attached non DYEL arms.

You cannot expect your bicep to handle or require more training than your back.

Why do curls?

You cannot expect your tricep to handle or require more training than the combination of delts and pecs.

Why isolate tricep?

Gomad isnt his only nutritional advice.

He says you should eat 5,000-7,000 kcal, just to follow his program.

He says you should bulk even if obese.

Have you two even read the book?

He says tons of silly shit, that is just what i recall offhand

Man I don't claim that it is better it just seemed to make more sense I am a newbie I don't have that much knowledge.
But if I follow Phrak's GSLP when I start bulking would I make decent aesthetic gains or just strength gains?

Not the whole book but holy shit 7000kcal? I am cutting on 1800 to 2000 kcal at the moment and was planning to eat about 2800 to 3000 when bulking wtf?

Both.

Greyskull has high volume during deloads, so you can still set prs and progressively overload, allowing you to get growth during a deload, whereas pther programs you would not.

It is an incredibly underrated program

Like i say, he says some dumb shit.

Tdee + 250kcal for lean bulk
Tdee + 500kcal for bulk (do not do this, you cannot gain 1lb muscle a week as a natty even with perfect conditions, nutrition is permissive, you cannot "forcefeed" gains)

Also forgove my presumption but you seem to have a very back and white view of cut vs bulk.

I think you might like this
m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bFy_WHYLI

>He says you should bulk even if obese.
No he doesn't.

He 100% says you should be gaining weight on his program

The common vernacular for gaining weight while lifting = "bulking"

You misremember. At no point does he say obese people should bulk, he actually says they should not. Please re-read the book before you spread your own misinformation.

I'll watch the video thanks but in what sense I have a black and white view? I started on a cut because I was out of shape. Now I lost my manboobs and most of my belly and the bigger portion of my loss was fat. After I lose some more I wanna do a bulk where I eat around 300 calories in surplus as you mentioned and try to gain back the 12 13kg I have lost but mostly as muscle.

Isn't it more or less how it works ? Please correct me if I am wrong because I don't wanna fuck up bulking

You can ignore that guy, he was spewing bullshit about SS I can only assume the other shit he say was likewise, bullshit.

I want to run a program that will give me strength results like SS, and then finish it up with TM, eventually going into strongman training.

I like GSLP and the plugins, but deadlifting once a week seems like a waste of time when you could progress once or twice a week with it.

But here's the thing, I need to have decent rear delt and back development because of having a torn labrum and the shoulder joint health concerns with that. What should I do?

Run SS with rear lateral raises or band facepulls on A?
Would DB carries once a week break the program to the point where it will harm my progression?

Look at SL

But the progression has you start from the bar, and I've heard time and time again that the deloads blow and it's a SS knockoff meme by some bulgarian jew.

What's the real difference between SL and SS with rows instead of power cleans, other than the two extra sets that don't really give a clear advantage?

Sure, the 5x5 scheme will make about a 10% difference in size/strength or whatever, but it also makes the progression harder.

Not that I don't sometimes THE PRESS for an extra set, but still.

Line by line.
>But the progression has you start from the bar
Start in the way SS would have you start, 10lb jumps until you hit working 5RM for the day
> I've heard time and time again that the deloads blow and it's a SS knockoff meme by some bulgarian jew.
All these beginner LP programs are SS knock offs. That doesn't invalidate them. Not everyone is training to be an american football player.
>What's the real difference between SL and SS with rows instead of power cleans
Power cleans are in SS to train explosiveness, which I doubt anyone here cares about. Rows will provide back development, rows with good form will hit rear delts, the pulling will match the pushing (which is a big flaw in SS).

> the 5x5 scheme will make about a 10% difference in size/strength or whatever, but it also makes the progression harder.
It has nothing to do with size or progression. It's more reps to work on form, which is the most important thing for a newbie to do. SL drops down to 3x5 soon enough so progression is literally the exact same. You just do more form work early.

What would a GSLP variant with only two days look like?

I've been doing it for 3 weeks and am enjoying it

I wish I had done this but without alternating ohp and 2x15 on isos.

>Barbell rows/chin ups before deadlifts

youtu.be/ZAHoPUgrubw
I stalled at 50kg and deloaded to 45.
Dont have microplates yet, was thinking of staying on a weight twice and do 2 amraps the second time instead of one to simulate overload.
At 45 amrap was 7, at 45 it was 5. Something aint right: i did 5-5-4 with 50

I do this with dips+lat raises on ohp day and incline db bench on bench day.
Still need to decide on a second accessory there, was thinking about facepulls.
Thoughts?

All you fat pseudo powerlifters can fuck off.

I did the routine in OP's pic and made good gains and I'm now doing that push/pull/legs.

It is far more enjoyable. At the end of the day I go to the gym because I enjoy it, so I'm going to do a routine that I actually like. The pump I get is also sickening.

btw my lifts got to

Deadlift 180kgx5
Squat 120kgx5
Bench 80kgx5
OHP 52.5kgx5

Also my bodyweight went from 57kg to 75kg

you barely bench above your bodyweight and you think its a good program?

show us your aesthetic body.

This my take on GSLP

Monday
Low bar squat 3x5
Bench Press/ Press 2 x 5, 1 x 5+
Pendlay row 3x5
Incline flyes 2x10-12
Rear delt flyes 2x10-12

Wednesday
Press/ Bench Press: 2 x 5, 1 x 5+
Deadlift: 1x5
Weighted Chin: 2 x 6-8
Lateral raises 2x10-12
Curl variant 2x10-12

Friday
Front squat 3x5
Bench Press/Press: 2 x 5, 1 x 5+
Pendlay row 3x5
Incline flyes 2x10-12
Rear delt flyes 2x10-12

These are the gains I made in about 1-1.5 years doing basically

A

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Rows 3x5

B
OHP 3x5
Deadlifts 1x5
Chinups

A

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Rows 3x5
Curls

I do rows after DLs, chinups the other 2 days.
problem solved

...