Ruso-Japanese War

So let me get this straight, Japan had,
>a concentrated fleet of modern ships put together by the British and manned by literate, seafaring men
>Russia had a bunch of drunk illiterate conscripts that had barely any contact with the sea in their life before this point
>Japan had more and better-trained troops, better artillery
>but the Tsar thought, fuck it, we've got a bigger cavalry
>Japan was almost completely unified
>Russia was divided on several fronts and had a whole host of populations that were against the Tsarist regime, funded by Japan and its enemies
Yet, somehow the Russians thought they could enter this war and win it?

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Yeah because up until that point every non-European power had basically been smacked the fuck over, why would Japan (who only had just industrialized) have any military capability beyond kicking the dead horse that is the Qing?

Russia had a good chance on winning it even after Tsushima
the Jap were on mere weeks away from bankruptcy
Japs infantry had better morale rather than better training,its pretty dead even
in the end its still an incredible achievement for them to fight somewhere 10000 kilometers away
and even though people laugh on the baltic fleet for their incompetence against fisherman and their rowdiness it was an incredible feat since the ships were hopelessly out of date, the sailors mostly prisoners and conscripts and that every neutral port closed their doors
it's foreseeable that if the fleet had gunnery as good as land cannonery Togo would've been taken out in the first 5 minutes and there'll be no crossing of the T

someone post the greentext of the tzar fleet sailing around the globe pls

I just have the one part

Multiple factors:

-Japan had never fought a war with a European power before. They crushed the Qing, but the European powers had no respect for the Qing and thought anyone could do that. Therefore, Japan's fleet and army were unproven.

-Japan had JUST industrialized. It seemed absurd at the time to think that someone who just figured what a modern warship was within a generation could surpass a great power per capita.

-Japan did not have the funds to prosecute a war. This was handily taken care of by an American banker named Jacob Schiff; him and some other Wall Street figures covered about half of Japan's wartime expenses in loans.

-Racial science was a real thing and widely believed at the time. As far as the Europeans were concerned, the Japanese were small-minded and passive Eastern Asiatics, and thus totally unable to conduct a successful war of this size on their own. Like religion in the pre-modern days, modern viewers often underestimate the effect these sincerely-held beliefs had on people at the time, because the viewpoint is alien to them (just like truly believing for a fact that god was real).

-Russia actually brought more troops and guns to the front than the Japanese, and had far, far more in reserve. They just underestimated how hard it would be to get all of it to the front. Heck, it's a damn miracle that their Baltic Fleet even made it to Tsushima to be destroyed. That was unironically a great show of leadership for the admiral.

japan had only recently modernized, and no non-european military had defeated a european one in a war. especially in the era of huge expansion of european empires it seemed impossible. you must consider that both the territory the japs would be fighting in and the weapons they'd go up against were no joke. this definitely showed as casualties were enormous for the time. manchuria was pretty tough terrain, and port arthur was a fortress which the russians deemed impenetrable.

then there is the fact that this is the first major war fought with machine guns and modern artillery. and the japs had worse artillery and few heavy guns while the russians had plenty. but they had more guns overall. the russians also had the manpower advantage, even with reinforcements being slow to arrive the russians were really only outnumbered at port arthur. and finally, prior to the war, nicky was both convinced it wouldn't escalate much and that there'd be a good chance the germans would enter on their side even if so. I'd say the only truly unreasonable calculation made was the ability to beat the jap navy when the russians one was a joke and on the other side of the world.

the japs definitely were trained better, there's no way they could've done so well if not. they did not have numbers nor a great advantage in artillery, although the naval victories certainly helped. but you're right that the war could not have gone on any longer, it pretty much ended in stalemate as both sides were exhausted.

>they crushed the Qing
the Qing lost the war, but Japan didn't really win the war.

Please, somebody tell me there's more. Please.

It was certainly possible that Russia wasn't aware of how powerful Japan had grown. They were modern and had helped beat up China but no one thought they were ready to fight somewhere like Russia. Also somewhat off topic was Japan or Russia more industrialised around the time of the war?

>Also somewhat off topic was Japan or Russia more industrialised around the time of the war?
Russia's GDP per capita was higher at least. See page 23 of this document:
warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/papers/ww1toronto2.pdf

t. Ching Chang who irrationally hates on Osprey

>and no non-european military had defeated a european one in a war

Ethiopia and Italy 1896

USA and Spain 1898

>Russia went from being one of the largest economies to below Japan and even Korea, the land they fought over with the Japanese 100 years ago
Thank you based Stalin, you industrialisation genius, turning a rural shithole into #1 worldpower!

>beating Italy and Spain mattering for shit

The USA is a European country.

Russia was stuck in a rut for a few years already
Anarchist and socialist,Reformist clamoring in with an ineffectual administration plagued by huge bereaucratic problems and departmental fighting
heck Nicky himself didnt want war,it was the treasury who dicked around near Korea who really escalated this
Their army structure was stuck in the days of Napoleon,and amazingly continued so until WW1

According to "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy, pages 200-201, in 1900, Russia produced 2.2 million tons of steel, consumed 30 million tons of coal equivalent to electricity, had a per capita rate of industrialization 15% that of Britain's, and had an urban population 4.8% of the total. In comparison, Japan produced an unknown amount of steel in 1900 (production was 0.02 million tons in 1890 and 0.16 million tons in 1910, so probably somewhere in between), consumed 4.6 million tons of coal, had a per capita industrialization rate 12% of Britain's, and an urban population 8.6% of the total.

Also France and Mexico.

Alright let me explain this. Japan was not militarily taken seriously back then. Russia thought it was going to be an easy win, anyone would've. Also keep in mind that Russia almost won. Tsushima was a crippling blow, but in doing that offensive, Japan nuked their entire economy and if Russia decided to just sit on the ass for another month or so and wait it out, Japan would be half-starving and would have to sue for peace. The problem is Russia didn't KNOW that, so they say Tsushima and went "well shit, if they could do that, they could do it again"

France was never beaten militarily in Mexico. They withdrew

Speaking about the most extreme defeat, I have to remember Haitian struggle for independence, in which Toussaint Louverture beat numerically superior and better equipped forces of multiple Colonial Powers, including that of Napoleonic France.

...

The loss of Qing prestige after the Sino-Japanese War uprooted the traditional Chinese tributary system.

t. autist

No one is even discussing the Osprey volumes.

Basically these two. Russians thought the Japanese were subhuman retards and that the Germans would help them. Neither one turned out to be true.

Tropical fevers beat those armies.

What would it have taken for Meiji Japan and Czarist Russia to become friends

I never knew niggers and Mexicans were Europeans.

Either side renouncing their territorial claims in the area.

>>Russia was divided on several fronts and had a whole host of populations that were against the Tsarist regime, funded by Japan and its enemies

wtf are you talking about

korea and manchuria not existing

Tsar Nicky was a retard. His own chief advisor Sergei Witte as well as Defense Minister Viktor Sakharov told him Russia was unprepared for war.

Fun fact: Nicholas dismissed Minister of War Sakharov's report on the dreadful state of Russia's military in the Far East as "Jewish propaganda" and ordered an immediate investigation to find "Jewish spies" responsible for it

>whole host of populations that were against the Tsarist regime
what

Witte and Stolypin both KNEW Russia wasn't ready for either a war with Japan or with Germany, and Stolyping got killed by (((guess who))).

While sailing along Africa the Russian officers bought a few exotic pets, including a Panther that got loose on board and killed a crewman before it was killed and a poisonous snake that wrapped itself around the mast and scared the captain away.

I ain't makin this shit up

Stolypin said earlier in life that given how the russian empire treated Jews it's not surprising they assassinate government officials.

So he basically justified his own future death

Russia should've just forcibly exiled all Jews. I mean call me /pol/ or whatever you want but it's not a coincidence that all anti-war voices in Russia were being silenced by Jewish terrorism while in the west the Jewish bankers kept funding the war effort. The Jews wanted that war the most.

Source on that?

Retards forgetting that Russia almost won this war and that it was a officer surrendering unilaterally at Port Arthur (despite having the supplies and men) that ruined their chances not the battle of Tuishima

People's Tragedy by Orlando Figes

thanks

>British historian

nicholas was gonna fire stolypin anyway, he had lost a lot influence before getting killed. also, guess who Witte's (((wife))) was?

>call me /pol/
>silenced by Jewish terrorism
the same members of the bolshevik and mensheviks who were the most vehemently anti-war socialist parties in the Europe during the war, besides maybe Italy? fuck off

>bolshevik
>anti-war
You mean they were German agents specifically instructed to sign a humiliating armistice?

>it was the treasury who dicked around near Korea who really escalated this
the military under nickys permission was taking over administration of the Far East from the civil administration aka the treasury, so you're wrong.

sino-japanese war is actually similar to russo-japanese war in that it revealed deep japanese weaknesses in their military and economy. the chinese were incompetent but it only appears so in retrospect. people thought russia and china would win against japan and they had many reasons to believe so. a lot of japan winning came down to luck

no, they were not. they had their own reasons for signing a truce with Germany, and when German officials allowed them safe passage through their empire they did so because they were aware of their anti-war position. It's known fact that Lenin was against the war immediately on its outbreak and consistently held the position till 1918. We have it written down.

Anyone here enjoy sucking cock?

Interesting you posted the Formosan Republic. It literally illustrates how much Japan didn't get much out of the 1st Sino-Japanese War.

>Treaty of Shimonoseki.
>Japan demands more territory from China following the loss of the war.
>Qing plays up the European threat. "Oh, right, yes. Fine. More concessions to Japan. I wonder what Brits/French/Russians/Germans would thing about that?"
>Japs pussy out and just demands indemnity and China simply renouncing control over Korea, Taiwan, and Penghu. No Chinese territory or concessions were handed over.
>Chinks agree to it. Russia benefitted from Korean independence and promptly installed a puppet government. Taiwan tried to be independent- the Republic of Formosa- but it was the only thing Japs ever got.

Japan's military improved, yes, but their Diplomatic skills have been consistently retarded throughout the history of Imperial Japan.

In fact in OP's topic, the same Japanese diplomatic dumbfuckery happened during the Treaty of Portsmouth.
>On August 23, however, Witte proposed that the Japanese keep Sakhalin and drop their claims for reparations. When Komura rejected this proposal, Witte warned that he was instructed to cease negotiations and that the war would resume. This ultimatum came as four new Russian divisions arrived in Manchuria, and the Russian delegation made an ostentatious show of packing their bags and preparing to depart.[3] Witte was convinced that the Japanese could not afford to restart the war, and applied pressure via the American media and his American hosts[3] to convince the Japanese that monetary compensation was something that Russia would never compromise on.[4] Outmaneuvered by Witte, Komura yielded, and in exchange for the southern half of Sakhalin the Japanese dropped their claims for reparations.

but the indemnity was without a doubt a huge boon to japan and an onerous burden for china, wasn't it?

hwo much did the Japs demanded?

480 million silver taels, iirc, or approximately one tael per Chinese person. this was about 10x the gdp (or budget...?) of Japan

Were internal problems in Russia that a big problem they choosed not to continue the war?

>340,000,000 taels (13,600 tons) of silver to Japan in both war reparations and trophies. This was equivalent to about 510,000,000 Japanese yen at the time, about 6.4 times the Japanese government's revenue.
But the Japs went to war to go Imperialist Colonizer like the cool Europeans were doing.
>Although Japan had achieved what it had set out to accomplish and ended Chinese influence over Korea, Japan had been forced to relinquish the Liaodong Peninsula, (Port Arthur), in exchange for an increased financial indemnity. The European powers (especially Russia) had no objection to the other clauses of the treaty but felt that Japan should not gain Port Arthur, for they had their own ambitions in that part of the world. Russia persuaded Germany and France to join in applying diplomatic pressure on Japan, resulting in the Triple Intervention of 23 April 1895.
Like I said, the Qings pretty much cut a deal with Euroniggers to keep Japan off Chinese territory as much as possible.

All they got after fighting in Korea, Taiwan, and in Liaodong was..well, Taiwan.

For China, Europeans can be dealt with. All they wanted was concessions to trade, not to replace the Qing Dynasty. Japan was looking forward to make an India out of China. In addition:
> Although China had been defeated by European powers in the 19th century, defeat at the hands of an Asian power and a former tributary state was a bitter psychological blow

oh i thought you meant sino-japanese war. not sure about the japanese demands for russian indemnity