Hey Veeky Forums, lets talk about a neat little piece of history from Japanese incursions into East Asia, Kando!

Hey Veeky Forums, lets talk about a neat little piece of history from Japanese incursions into East Asia, Kando!

While clear borders for what constitutes Kando were never solidified, it wouldn't be unfair to refer to the current borders of China's Yanbian Autonomous Prefecture, known for its majority Korean population.

Korean immigration to the region just above modern day North Korea began during the late Qing Era in the 1890's. During a Chinese famine, the Qing who had made attempts to prevent immigration into their homeland of Manchuria, opened up their borders to immigration from Han Chinese (who had already been making their way into Manchuria) and Koreans to act as farmers.

(Pictured: a 1700s map of Korea showing what are basically the modern borders known today).

Following about a decade of immigration to the area, the Qing and the short-lived Empire of Korea (1897-1910) made an official agreement that set up provisions for Koreans to naturalize into Qing subjects. As Qing subjects, the Koreans would have rights to own land and other government benefits. Despite the agreement, only about 10-15% of Koreans in Kando naturalized, those who didn't remained in the region mostly working as tenant farmers on a contract. Some would however, buy land under the names of naturalized Koreans.

(Pictured: Another map showing a slightly enlarged Korean border encompassing what would include Kando)

Following the 1904 Agreement mentioned, the Chinese began to take steps to encourage naturalization among the Koreans. These attempts would increase in intensity for the same reasons that a second of Korean immigrants began to enter the area. In 1905, Korea was made a protectorate of the Japanese Empire.

The Empire of Japan had a pattern of identifying enemies on their border as the reason for extending their imperial border. For example, the taking of Korea was partially justified by the view that Korea was a "knife pointed at Japan" that could be used by the Russians.

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As a protectorate of Japan, Korean would become a kind of medium through which Japan would express displeasure with the Chinese over their treatment of the Koreans.

In 1909, Japan and China signed the Kando Treaty that settled the question of the territorial status of Kando that had been going on since 1905. The treaty stated that China would maintain territorial and administrative rights over Kando. It also, however, gave Japan the right to station police in the region in order to protect the consulate and ensure safe trade in the region. This would prove to be a temporary solution to a large problem that would reveal itself in 1915.

The signing of the Treaty and Notes Concerning South Manchuria and Eastern Inner Mongolia in 1915 took place 5 years after the annexation of Korea by Japan. The treaty gave "Japanese subjects" the right to lease land, travel freely, and own and manage business in "South Manchuria."

The wording of the treaty highlighted above became the subject of debate between Japanese and Chinese diplomats. The first problem was over the use of "South Manchuria." To China, the region known as Manchuria was split into three provinces and known as the "three northeastern provinces. According to China, there was no "South Manchuria," and it was claimed that the wording was intentionally vague in order to benefit Japanese interests in the area.

The second problem revolved around the use of "Japanese subjects." Japan argued that Koreans, who had been Japanese subjects since 1910, should be afforded the same rights given to native Japanese via this treaty. China, however, argued that the rights given to Koreans had already been described in previous treaties and that the annexation of Korea should have no retroactive effects on any treaties made between the two powers.

Here's where things start to get kind of technical.

According to Chinese law, one could not own land unless they had naturalized.

According to Japan, one could not have dual citizenship and the naturalization to one country meant the revocation of one's current citizenship.

Additionally, within the Empire of Japan, there was distinction between citizen and subjects. Although Japanese and Koreans were both subjects of the Emperor, Japanese subjects had more civil rights as citizens than had been allotted to the Koreans thus far.

In order to better exploit the terminology of the 1915 Treaty, Japan put through a law that allow Koreans to naturalize into China without losing their status as Japanese subjects. Through this, Koreans were able to attain both land owning rights as well the extraterritoriality given to Japanese subjects.

(Is anyone here?)

Nice thread OP, keep posting

In effect, how the 1915 Treaty was carried out was based on who controlled the territory where Koreans were operating. Where Chinese had the stronger position, Koreans were kept to the Chinese treaty interpretation whereas where Japan controlled, Japan's interpretation was used.

In Chinese controlled regions, the assimilation policies used by China were intensified. Korean schools were closed, Chinese culture and language was pushed on the Koreans, and Korean associations meant to financially aid Korean farmers were prevented from accepting new member or collecting membership fees.

This tough stance adopted by the Chinese tended to drive Koreans to seek support from Japanese authority in the regions. A clause in the 1915 Treaty prevented Chinese courts from having total sovereignty in solving land disputed and Japanese judges used their power to settle in favor of Korean farmers.

Meanwhile, the Japanese accused the Chinese of being anti-Japanese in their policy making. Although China did eventually admit their policies were anti-Japanese, Chinese scholars defended the policies by saying that they were only in response to Japanese interference with the assimilation process.

Meanwhile, in the Japanese controlled region, the police force allowed to be stationed in Kando would conducts searches and surveillance on the Korean communities in search of anti-Japanese sentiment or movements.

The Japanese concerns over anti-Japanese sentiment in Korean communities took the form of searching for and dealing with those associated with Communist movements.

In 1925, the police commissioner of Korea and the police authority of Chinese Warlord Zhang Zuolin (at this time working more with the Chinese than the Japanese) made a joint-pact to counter the spread of Communism in the area via police cooperation. The pact curbed Korean's right to bear arms, freely assemble, and would hold entire Koreans communities responsible if one Communist was found among them.

By 1930, about 400,000 Koreans had migrated into Kando and about 400,000 beyond into Manchuria. These three treaties signed between Japanese and Chinese powers reflect the limbo that Koreans found themselves in as Japan sought ways to expand into Manchuria.

One Dr. Park has described the process as the process as "territorial osmosis." The Japanese created two development companies that eventually merged into one Oriental Development Company. This company would give loans to and hire Koreans to work in the farms they had purchased and when they had paid their debt they would become independent farmers. Despite the high interests rates, the promise of owning land attracted many.

The development company farms were collectivized in an attempt for Japan to create a self-sustaining economy in Manchuria. In reality however, many Koreans were unable to pay back their debts and upon defaulting on a loan, the development companies would seize the leased land, expel the laborers and often times replace them with cheaper Chinese labor.

Meanwhile, the companies were also giving larger loans to Japanese farmers at much smaller interests rates

One final note on this, although Koreans were treated poorly relative to the Japanese, they received preferential treatment over Chinese laborers and in some ways benefited from the Japanese racial rhetoric at the time that sought to assimilate Koreans and members of the Japanese race.

Okay so I have a couple places I could go. I could talk about the yen-bloc and what that is, what is was supposed to be, why it failed.

I could talk about the Japanese opium trade in Manchuria and Koreans role in that.

I could talk about the status of Koreans in Manchukuo after Japan invaded Manchuria and set up their puppet government.

Or we could just talk about something you thought was neat :)

Read about Mount Paektu

Jiang Zemin grew up for 8 years as a Japanese subject in Nanjing. His father served the RoC/Japan puppet administration in the city.

Could you talk about WW2 Japanese-occupied Chinese regions? Any would be okay

I know its been the center of the several border disputes between Korea and China if that's what you mean

Oh thats interesting, I didn't know that.

I don't actually know much about Japanese-occupied China outside of Manchukuo but I even that I preferred to focus on the minority experiences in the region.

A couple things I know about about Chinese in Manchukuo though was that they (Chinese and Manchus) made up consistently 90% of the population, Japanese racial rhetoric described them as "built for work" and they were often used to replace Korean or Japanese labor since they would work for less.

Something else is that in Manchukuo Chinese Communists would criticize, look down on, and at times refuse to work with Korean Communists since they saw the Koreans as too obsessed with nation for wanting to prioritize Korean independence

Sorry for typos I was rushing...

Chinese used to call the the Koreans who collaborated with Japanese to oppress locals(including their owns) "二鬼子"(Devil Jr.) as counter part of "大鬼子 or "日本鬼子"(Japanese Devil). 二鬼子 often were regarded as same level as "漢奸"(Han Jian, Chinese traitor), of course Korean would call them "韓奸(Han Jian, Korean traitor).

Nowadays 二鬼子 is not used to address Koreans traitors anymore but all kinds of Chinese traitors who collaborate with foreign power to betray their own people, the most renown ones are TW separatists and HK separatists.

I studied Kim Il-Sung’s guerilla activities during the Second Sino-Japanese war. He led the Korean contingent of the PLA during those years and fought in Manchuria. He also fought alongside a Chinese PLA general against the Japanese in the Jilin region near North Korea. But, by 1939, the Japanese and Soviets signed a ceasefire and these guerillas were mostly cut loose/Japanese could focus on them.

Kim Il-Sung and the PLA’s Korean contingent moved in Primorye Krai prefecture in the USSR during the 1940-1945 period. There he and some of his Chinese allies joined the Red Army.

When Kim Il-Sung arrived in Pyongyang in October 1945 (months after liberation), he did not know how to speak proper Korean and he could on read Chinese. The Soviets thought he could be a loyal puppet so they chose him despite these awkward “Korean nationalist” failings

The more you know...

Oh and his son was born in the small town of Vastoye, far east Russia. Kim Il-Sung’s later official biographies blot out his collaboration with the PLA and Red Army, but his earlier documents and secondary sources reveal that he and his Korean guerrilla fighters were literally “created from zero”.

Kim Il-Sung’s PLA and Red Army connections are a large part of why both nations believed they could puppet him, and yet failed.

In 1956 he purged the pro-Chinese faction. The Chinese then refused to withdraw from North Korea (remember that the USA never withdrew from South Korea), but the Soviets threatened to cut off China’s logistical support (this is before the split) and China eventually withdrew all military forces in 1958.

tl;dr Kim Il-Sung grew up in Manchuria going to Chinese school and learning Mandarin. His son, Kim Jong-Il was born “Yuri Jung” in the Soviet Union and grew up speaking Mandarin and Russian.

These are the people who ran North Korea for 60 years.

Actually a really good thread, Im learning a lot OP. Happy holidays

thanks op, an actual good thread for once
much appreciated

Jiang knows Japanese because of the 8+ years under occupation.

Something neat that ties into that was that Park Cheung-Hee, the third president and later the military dictator of South Korea actually served with the Manchurian Imperial Army willingly and and became a lieutenant

who is this guy?

Jiang Zemin, frogman who ruled China for 8 years and made it more shit for everyone involved

I'd rather have Park than Kim. My father grew up under Park and has nothing but admiration for his policies.

I heard today in SK Park is still voted as one of the top presidents of SK in polls for his turning around of the SK economy despite his other abuses in office. I think he's a really interesting a figure and an example of how (in my non-South Korean opinion) the leaders of the Koreas, before they are Communist or Capitalist or any of those titles are first and foremost Korean nationalist as they deservedly have some right to be.