Hmmmmm

Is Alexander the Great Macedonian or Greek?

Why not both?
You got Athenian Greeks, Cretan Greeks, Cyprus Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Cappadocian Greeks, Constantinopolean Greeks, Peoloponnesian Greeks.
He is Macedonian Greek.

If you believe him, he was a Greek, descendant from Heracles an Achilles, but if he was just your average Macedonian, then probably not, the Macedonians were Hellenized and spoke a language that was either a Greek dialect or related to Greek. Some say that the Macedonians might be related to the Thracians but thats a stretch. Reading Arrian i got the feeling that everyone knew they weren't Greek, since he clearly distinguishes them, but in some cases says Alexander addressed them as Greeks.

Either way, to add, neither the modern Macedonians nor Greeks can lay any claim on him.

Aren't Macedonians just northern Greeks?
Aren't Germans just northern Macedonians?
Alexander was all three of these.

Macedonians were Greek. Albeit, they were regarded by the southern Greeks as more like Greek "Hillbillies." They had some differences due to their interaction with northern tribes of barbarians.

wtf?
they dont look nordic, fake pic

God that Macedonian soldier is the most greek looking guy I’ve ever seen. Pointed jaw, small chin and long nose and all.

I guess being pale was kinda the beauty standard as it was in the east.

True. Hellenistic Greeks are all but gone, given their long history of Turkish rule. Their cultural and racial identity has been mixed too thoroughly with their past overlords.
I dated a girl once whose family could trace their lineage back before Greek assimilation and displacement. She was Caucasian in appearance. Her family was as well. They were very concerned with maintaining their racial and cultural purity by their daughter finding a similarly Greek husband. It goes without saying that we did not work out, as I am 99.9% Caucasian with some Native American blood. Odd, but interesting family.

>They had some differences due to their interaction with northern tribes of barbarians.

I hold an opposite view tb h, that they were barbarians who were hellenized by their interaction with the Greeks, hence why Alexander had to prove that he was a Hellene by claiming decent from Argos, in order to participate in the Olympic games.

kek

>True. Hellenistic Greeks are all but gone, given their long history of Turkish rule. Their cultural and racial identity has been mixed too thoroughly with their past overlords.

Thats rubbish, its not the race mixing that killed the "hellenistic Greeks" but time, the Greek provinces were part of the Roman Empire for over a thousand years, having Roman soldiers of all parts of the empire settle there, the Greeks were changed naturally, over time with assimilating other cultures like Latin, Slavic, Christian e.t.c. The Greeks didn't mix with the Turks, neither did anyone else in the Balkans, intermarriage was a crime, and raped women had their babies killed.

"racial purity" is a meme either way

Macedonians aren't gREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

He was a Macedonian. Now, to be clear, that does not mean he came from modern Macedonian stock, which is largely Slavic, instead that he came from the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon, and spoke both Macedonian and Greek.

Undoubtedly, the Greek state has more of a "claim" to him than the modern Macedonian state, which is a Slavic nation.

If the Macedonians refused to recognize Eumenes because he was born Greek then I say we return the favor and refuse to recognize Macedonians as Greek.

Eumenes did nothing wrong.

Let me settle this once and for all. Modern definition of an Ethnic Group: An ethnic group, or an ethnicity, is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities such as common ancestry, language, society, culture or nation.
>common ancestry
According to Alexander, he was a descendant of Achilles, who was a Greek. That is most likely false though. He also apparently presented some form of proof of his Hellenic ancestry in order to be allowed to compete in the Olympics. The thing is, even if you were to Ancient Macedonians were a genetically distinct group, they'd still be genetically closest to Greeks. Conclusion: Perhaps Greek, even if not still closest to Greeks, most definitely not a Slav.
>language
The ancient Macedonian language was either a dialect of the Greek language or a separate language that was closely related to Greek. Conclusion: either Greek or closest to Greek.
>society
We know that the structure of Ancient Macedonian society didn't differ all that much from nearby areas like Epirus for example, and Epirus is Greek.
>culture
Ancient Macedonians, by the 5th century BC I believe, had come to worship the Greek Pantheon, as the rest of the Greeks. One can assume a common mythology from Alexander making claims about his ancestry that reference Greek mythology, plus the fact that mythology and religion were more closely tied back then. Also competed in the Olympics and was taught by a Greek.

So he was either most definitely Greek or even if that was not the case, he was closest to Greeks than any other ethnicity, therefore Greeks, and no one else, have a legitimate claim to him.

even if you were to claim that Ancient Macedonians were*

Good post, user. When it comes down to it, you can either define Greek as: 1. A racial group 2. A cultural group or 3. Both. No matter which way you slice it, Macedonians end up coming under a definition of Greek by default.

>Conclusion: Perhaps Greek, even if not still closest to Greeks, most definitely not a Slav.

Nobody is arguing that the ancient Macedonians were Slavs, this is Veeky Forums not some youtube channel.

>We know that the structure of Ancient Macedonian society didn't differ all that much from nearby areas like Epirus for example, and Epirus is Greek.

Well to be honest, there is nothing unique about the social structure in Epirus or Macedonia, a monarchy, with a King, nobles, peasants and slaves, is there supposed to be something unique to both of them?

>Also competed in the Olympics and was taught by a Greek.

Didn't Alexander the I had to prove his Greek ancestry since it was disputed, and he proved it by claiming descent from Argos.

>So he was either most definitely Greek or even if that was not the case, he was closest to Greeks than any other ethnicity, therefore Greeks, and no one else, have a legitimate claim to him.

Alexander was most certainly Hellenized to the point of being Greek, but the ancient Macedonians weren't, their closeness to Greece is based on their level of Hellenization, originally they may have been a people closest to the Thracians. As for claims, nobody has a claim on a dead man from 2000 years ago, the whole dispute, on both sides, is absurd.

>Didn't Alexander the I had to prove his Greek ancestry since it was disputed, and he proved it by claiming descent from Argos.
Yes, I mentioned that.
>As for claims, nobody has a claim on a dead man from 2000 years ago, the whole dispute, on both sides, is absurd.
Since FYROM has built its entire National Identity around the false claim that there exists a connection (ethnic in nature) between them and the Ancient Macedonians, and since many of them then use such a false interpretation as a basis for making territorial claims against Greece, the need for placing Ancient Macedonians on one of two camps has become unavoidable. Not only that, but those closest to Ancient Macedonians, those living in modern day Greek Macedonia, think of themselves as Greeks.

>Since FYROM has built its entire National Identity around the false claim that there exists a connection (ethnic in nature) between them and the Ancient Macedonians, and since many of them then use such a false interpretation as a basis for making territorial claims against Greece, the need for placing Ancient Macedonians on one of two camps has become unavoidable

What is this 2002? Macedonian national identity isn't built on Alexander, it was built long before that, the Alexandrian nonsense started after independence in 1991, the Macedonian ethnic group was accepted as separate (Created if you will) in 1945, with a completely Slavic identity at its core. Macedonians being related to Alexander the Great was something nobody took seriously or takes today, only the former government, to spite Greece, started the process of "antiqueization" which is in the process of being reversed by the new government.

>Not only that, but those closest to Ancient Macedonians, those living in modern day Greek Macedonia, think of themselves as Greeks.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, Aegean Macedonia was populated by a very big Slavic element, most """"Macedonian""""" Greeks today are Greeks from the region of Pontus, settled there after the expulsion of the Slavic Macedonian population, and some of those Greeks that weren't Pontic were so called "slavophone Greeks" aka Hellenized Slavs.

Oh and the "territorial claims" point is ridiculous and very hypocritical, every Balkan nation has "territorial claims" on its neighbors, not to mention the Macedonian government altered the constitution to explicitly say that there are no territorial pretentions towards Greece or any Balkan country, rendering the whole dispute redundant.

A kingdom doesn't automatically mean a nation, especially not the ancient and medieval ones.

He was from the Hellenic kingdom of Macedon, being personally taught and embracing what we now call Hellenic culture throughout his life.

Macedon was a bit like Prussia, a unifying force of the Greek world yet a bit unique and distant from core Hellenic culture, but in the grand scheme of things undoubtedly Hellenic.

Alexander's conquest brought about the Hellenistic age, spread of Hellenic culture and made Greek the lingua franca of the East until the muslim conquests. It also resulted in the amalgam of the Greek dialects into one common (Koine) Greek language which the Greeks and Hellenized peoples have been speaking ever since.

>referring to Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia"
LARP'ing Bulgar confirmed.
>What is this 2002? Macedonian national identity isn't built on Alexander
>recognizes that there is no connection between Ancient Macedonians and modern FYROM
Good, why then do they insist on including "Macedonia" in the name of their country if they have absolutely no connections to them beyond having settled on land that was previously theirs? Mate, your fucking PM literally came out today saying "I too agree that we are not THE ONLY descendants of Alexander" after the Greek PM fucked up and referred to them as descendants of Alexander too. If what you were saying was true the naming dispute wouldn't be an issue since FYROM would instantly back down and their PM wouldn't be making such statements either.
>the Macedonian ethnic group was accepted as separate (Created if you will) in 1945
but it's neither Macedonian nor has any cultural/ancestral elements that would differentiate it from Bulgarians. In order to justify the existence of the nation you have to prove a distinct ethnic identity which simply doesn't fucking exist beyond them not referring to themselves as Bulgarians.
>Aegean Macedonia was populated by a very big Slavic element
Yes, it was populated by a large portion of Slavs during Ottoman times, and Slavic admixture is a thing for Northern Greece, but certainly not to the point of being considered Slavic or non-Greeks.
>most """"Macedonian""""" Greeks today are Greeks from the region of Pontus
Not a majority, but Pontic Greeks are indeed present in modern Greek Macedonia, but that doesn't mean that they replaced or in any way negatively impacted the authentic Macedonian element of the region, they merely replaced the Turks and Slavs that got the boot.

>and some of those Greeks that weren't Pontic were so called "slavophone Greeks" aka Hellenized Slavs.
>some
Literally never even heard of that. Considering most Slavs actually left Greek Macedonia, I imagine that (assuming it's even true) to be an insignificant minority.
>every Balkan nation has "territorial claims" on its neighbors
Mate, you have no legitimacy as a nation, how can you even have territorial claims on top of that?
>rendering the whole dispute redundant.
Nothing is redundant until you clearly denounce any association with Macedonia by officially admitting to it and ceasing all efforts to include anything Macedonian in the naming of your country or national symbols.

The FYROM might not pose a significant military threat to Greece at this time, and the state might have put territorial ambitions aside due to current circumstances, but as long as Macedonian nationbuilding is ongoing and the notion that there ever was a "united Macedonia with Solun as its capital" prevails then it will always be a threat to Greece. There's simply no reason for them to accept or compromise on this charade. It only shows that cheating and lying pays off.

Again, even if hostilities are put aside for the time being. It doesn't take much to reignite territorial claims or shift policy.

For example, Turkey and Greece settled their borders after WW1 yet a couple of weeks ago Erdogan started laying claims on the muslim parts of Thrace. As long as the muslim population exist there, there are no guarantees. It's the same with Macedonian nationbuilding.

>Lets not get ahead of ourselves, Aegean Macedonia was populated by a very big Slavic element, most """"Macedonian""""" Greeks today are Greeks from the region of Pontus, settled there after the expulsion of the Slavic Macedonian population, and some of those Greeks that weren't Pontic were so called "slavophone Greeks" aka Hellenized Slavs.
It's true that many Pontic refugees settled in the region (mostly eastern regions of Macedonia), but this notion that Macedonia was a significantly Slavic-populated region is false. There were more Slavs living there a century ago, yes, but mostly in the northernmost parts and Thrace which still fall outside of historical Macedonia and was by no means some kind of overwhelming majority. Thessaloniki, by far the most important city and which FYROM likes to whine about, was half Jewish and the rest Greek or muslim. It has never been held by a Slavic power nor significantly populated by Slavs.

At best Bulgaria has claims to Eastern Thrace and small parts of Macedonia, but actual Macedonia - just no. I don't think anybody neutral could think that.

>LARP'ing Bulgar confirmed.
Is that a problem larping turk?

>Good, why then do they insist on including "Macedonia" in the name of their country if they have absolutely no connections to them beyond having settled on land that was previously theirs?

Because that region has been called Macedonia for hundreds of years, even the Bulgarian population called itself Macedonian Bulgarians, the country gets its name from the region, it was called the Socialist Republic of Macedonia before that and removed the Socialist part after. Why such a small Slavic country is a threat to the territorial integrity and national identity of Greece i will never know.

> "I too agree that we are not THE ONLY descendants of Alexander" after the Greek PM fucked up and referred to them as descendants of Alexander too

Kek i would pay to hear this

>f what you were saying was true the naming dispute wouldn't be an issue since FYROM would instantly back down and their PM wouldn't be making such statements either.

Our first pm Kiro Gligorov clearly said we weren't descendants of the ancient Macedonians, the naming dispute is an issue because nobody, fucking nobody can tell me how i am to be called, its a matter of honor and integrity, not silly hoplite larping.

>but it's neither Macedonian nor has any cultural/ancestral elements that would differentiate it from Bulgarians. In order to justify the existence of the nation you have to prove a distinct ethnic identity which simply doesn't fucking exist beyond them not referring to themselves as Bulgarians.

Macedonia exists whether you like it or not, distinct from Bulgarians ethnically or not it exists, today nations don't have to prove a separate identity for their right to exist, the UN and all of its neighbors have recognized Macedonia and its borders as independent and sovereign, this isn't Europa Universalis or what ever, furthermore the Bulgarian population of Macedonia had a strong regional identity

>I am 99.9% Caucasian with some Native American blood.

So you're a True American?

Cont

>regional identity

And the fight was for the independence of Macedonia, since unification with Bulgaria was impossible at first, but later on it developed into a fight for an independent Macedonia regardless of the possibility of unification, since the Macedonian revolutionaries wanted a modern Republic free from the meddling of foreign powers through their appointed monarchs. This is the "right" of Macedonia to exist.

>Yes, it was populated by a large portion of Slavs during Ottoman times, and Slavic admixture is a thing for Northern Greece, but certainly not to the point of being considered Slavic or non-Greeks

Why not? Because you're Greek and have nationalist wet dreams? The Slavs that lived in that region had lived in it for over a thousand years, how far are we going to go in history to make these wet dreams happen?

>Not a majority

Fair enough

>Considering most Slavs actually left Greek Macedonia

>left

They were expelled

>Nothing is redundant until you clearly denounce any association with Macedonia by officially admitting to it and ceasing all efforts to include anything Macedonian in the naming of your country or national symbols.

Or until you and your mother both get on your knees and suck my dick, we can work out the finer points of this new settlement later on, im sure the Greek people will consider you a hero for sucking my dick and thus giving Macedonia back to the Greeks.

>. There were more Slavs living there a century ago, yes, but mostly in the northernmost parts and Thrace which still fall outside of historical Macedonia and was by no means some kind of overwhelming majority

The Slavic population was predominantly rural whilst the Greek population was predominantly urban, but they were a significant number, regardless of "historic Macedonia" they populated a large swath of modern Greek Macedonia, for over a millenia.

And yes, Solun being the capital is absolutely absurd

>Because that region has been called Macedonia for hundreds of years, even the Bulgarian population called itself Macedonian Bulgarians, the country gets its name from the region
What? By the same token it would be totally legitimate for Muslims to be LARP'ing as Byzantines because "HURR DURR THEY OCCUPY THE MAJORITY OF BYZANTINE LANDS" or for Bulgars to be LARP'ing as Thracians. Acting as if the name of a country is totally independent of the ancestry/culture of its population and that being characterized as "Macedonian" has no implication other than merely occupying the land which was previously known as that is absurd.
>nobody can tell me how i am to be called, its a matter of honor and integrity, not silly hoplite larping.
Holy shit, I had no idea the mental disorder of transgenderism manifested itself in this manner as well. That would only be true in the case of you having picked a name that had no previous associations with people and a culture totally different from you.
>today nations don't have to prove a separate identity for their right to exist
Are you retarded? The modern conception of a nation rests upon exactly that which you just denied.

Not me but I might as well reply to this as well
>how far are we going to go in history to make these wet dreams happen?
>"going far enough back in history to serve my interests is fine but not too far so that historical fact would prove I have no place being in such lands"

>What? By the same token it would be totally legitimate for Muslims to be LARP'ing as Byzantines because "HURR DURR THEY OCCUPY THE MAJORITY OF BYZANTINE LANDS" or for Bulgars to be LARP'ing as Thracians. Acting as if the name of a country is totally independent of the ancestry/culture of its population and that being characterized as "Macedonian" has no implication other than merely occupying the land which was previously known as that is absurd.

Only i specifically told you that larping has nothing to do with it.

>"going far enough back in history to serve my interests is fine but not too far so that historical fact would prove I have no place being in such lands"

You're retarded aren't you? The only reason i wen't back to the 6th century is to give you an idea for how long a certain people have held a certain land, just because you think that your imaginary ancestors lived there "more longer ago" doesn't give you the right to dispute someones "claim" to the land, and forget this whole thing, you Greeks didn't even call yourselves Hellenes before Byron and Otto came, let alone Macedonians, its myth and fan fiction, you only became Greeks when Otto and Byrone started larping as Hoplites and you became Macedonians when it was convenient for you to expand your territory.

>Only i specifically told you that larping has nothing to do with it.
What? I simply applied your logic of "having a right to the name of a land by merely being on it" and "names are only associated with land and not culture/people". By that logic, Turks are Byzantines, Bulgarians are Thracians, and so on and so on.
> The only reason i wen't back to the 6th century is to give you an idea for how long a certain people have held a certain land
If you're gonna use the length of time that a certain group of people have remained in an area as the sole factor for determining who has a legitimate claim over it then you shouldn't concern yourself with anything but FYROM, considering anything outside of it has had a more prevalent Hellenic presence and for a longer period of time.
>you Greeks didn't even call yourselves Hellenes before Byron and Otto came, let alone Macedonians, its myth and fan fiction, you only became Greeks when Otto and Byrone started larping as Hoplites and you became Macedonians when it was convenient for you to expand your territory.
What the fuck are you on about? You realize that the rising Nationalism that lead the Greeks to fight for their Independence was their realization of a connection between them and Ancient Greeks though, right? It's not "myth" that modern day Greeks are culturally and genetically the group that is most closely related to Ancient Greeks. Also, even if what you describe was the case, facts wouldn't be determined by what Greeks thought of themselves but what reality was like. The lands of Greek Macedonia did have a genetically Greek majority whether they thought of themselves as such or not. Actually being something but not identifying by it still gives you a more legitimate claim to it than having nothing to do with it but naming yourself by it. But anyways, the claim that Greeks didn't of themselves as Greeks up until some enlightened foreigner brainwashed them into LARP'ing as such is bullshit anyways.

Lord God, that blonde Dixie girl

When did Macedon stop having Grecian culture?

>this was considered blonde in ancient greece/rome

macedonian = bulgarian
therefore alexander was a bulgar

If you mean modern """Macedonians""". I don't even think the country is in the same location as ancient Macedonia. Pretty sure they're a neighbouring area that just changed their name to Macedonia fairly recently for we wuzz reasons.

Alexanders dad was named Philip, this word has meaning in Greek.

He was unironically Albanian, fuck you all for falling for the greek propaganda.

So does my first and last name, and im a Skopian Slav, guess WE WUZ ALEXANDER after all

Alexander was a slav

Nigga you don't speak greek, a greek could translate that name for you based on the knowledge of his own language.

Imma give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend you're memeing Albo propaganda

Friendly reminder that Philip got cucked and we don't know Alexander's real father

>WIR WAREN GRIECHEN UND SCHEIßE

This but unironically. But he was a blond haired and blue eyed Western Slav, not a shitskin like modern Monkeydonians and Greeks.

Slavs weren't anywhere near that region at the time, you 'tard.

Ancient Greek societies all had a Slavic ruling class.

>Hellenistic Greeks are all but gone, given their long history of Turkish rule. Their cultural and racial identity has been mixed too thoroughly with their past overlords.
You had to post the frog as well, thus making yourself sound even more retarded

I aint biting dat nigga

Wasn't the ancient Kingdom of Macedon founded by people from Argos, which was in the Peloponnese?
Alexander was as Greek as the rest of the populations were back then in what is now Greece.