Burgundy Thread

The fuck.is. Burgundy

>american education

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>Two burgundy threads in a month
Oh Boy I sure love Christmas

Why should I care ?

You were the one who posted on this thread.

The collapse of burgundy was because there were no good female heirs and because France was centralised and England weakened
If the emperor and the pope were in stronger positions it may have stayed alive but like Brittany was doomed to fall at some part

Why didn't Burgundy change their center of rule to the low countries? Would have made for a much more sustainable duchy/kingdom

Can any of you reconstruct an Alt his scenario where Charles the Bold accomplishes recreating Middle Francia?

>collapse of the Duchy of Burgundy?
Monarchies are inherently unstable, the immanent flaw when you seriously believe that a nation is the private property of one inbreed family and said inbreeds manages to get killed without having a proper heir.

His center of rule was the low countries. In their centralization process, the dukes gradually concentrated most of the administrative aparatus of the duchy (Chamber of accounts, the Great Council of Mechelen) in the county of flanders and the duchy of Brabant. This came to the point that, at the time of Phillip the Good, the northern part of Burgundy was called "the lands over here", while the french motherland was "the lands over there", like they were a conquered territory.

Great post, thank you. Where did you learn so much about Burgundy?

>am nothing but nice
>just want to learn about burgundy
>nobody will help

What is Burgundy

Lotharingia and its descendants were doomed from birth given their retarded geography

>starts out as your average loyal French vassal
>in the late 1300s manages to inherit a collection of Duchies and Counties in the north(these would become the Low Countries)
>Burgundian Dukes become so powerful that they are essentially autonomous
>back England in the Hundred Years War
>After the war they continue to grow more powerful
>fight the Swiss and the Austrians
>Duke Charles the Bold attempts to establish a Third Burgundian Kingdom
>Convinces the Holy Roman Emperor to crown
>Emperor backs out b/c he doesn't like Charles' "attitude" or whatever
>Charles dies at the battle of Nancy in 1477 with no male heir
>realm passes to his daughter Mary
>her son Philip von Habsburg inherits the duchy
>his son Charles inherits Burgundy, Spain Austria, Naples, and the HRE
>France gets Butthurt and takes back the historically French parts of Burgundy
>cue several hundred years of border conflict between France and the HRE and later Prussia that culminates with the Franco-Prussian war in 1870

tl:dr A powerful Duchy on the border between France and the HRE is inherited by the Habsburgs, causing hundreds of years of bloodshed

>tfw the Emperor didn't crown him King
It could have been so hideous.

love this thread. all the pseudo historians who make 20th century and "why hasn't africa developed" threads don't even know what burgundy is

It doesn't help that Burgund- is a name that's been given to like half a dozen distinct things

It would be perfect for both sides. Burgundy gains total independence and the protection of the emperor, and the emperor gains the support of the most powerful prince of the west and the prospects of inheritance. Not that it mattered much, since Maximilian got the last anyway by marrying Maria, but still

No need to get all condescending. Burgundybros should be known for friendliness.

The problem with Lotharingia was that it was sandwiched by the two most powerful kingdoms of the time, while the realm itself was divided by the Alps. Burgundy, on the other hand, controlled the economic heart of western Europe (Apart from northern Italy, that is) and his most inmediate threat was only France, easily countered with an alliance with the iberian kingdoms (as Maximilian I secured by marrying his son Phillip with Juana of Trastamara). If Charles wasn't the sperglord he was, and wasn't facing the shark that Louis XI showed he was, I'd say Burgundy enjoyed a rather comfy position.

If You See This Image While Scrolling the first page

You Have Been Visited by the Bastard of Burgundy

Good luck and prosperity will come to you,
but only if you post a VIVE LA BOURGOGNE in this thread

Tony had such a goofy face and the silly hat didn't help. He was pretty good at archery though.

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I'm planning a future trip to Benelux and I'd like to visit some places of Burgundian significance. Do you have any ideas?

Keep the thread alive

Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp, Brussels, The Hague, Lille

Basically belgium. But if you have a spare day and a car available, I'd recommend that you visit Dijon. It's at five hours from Brussels, and there is the ducal palace and the tombs of the dukes in a nearby monastery.

What are good books/websites to read on Burgundy ? Doesn't matter if it's in english or french. I'm especially interested into the army reorganization into "lances"

To follow on that, according to wiki, Burgundy followed France into the reorganization based on the Compagnies d'ordonnances, but incorporated arquebuses. I'd like to know the dates and modalities of those changes, how it impacted the army and the wars after

pastebin.com/TVBVcJ0M

Here's a book list about Burgundy. You'll probably find something about military history there

pro tip: when visiting the Flemish cities and Lille take a hotel in Ghent. The train ride from Ghent to Bruges is 30 minutes and the train to Brussels and Lille are also around 30 mins.

Should I learn any Dutch?

Charles shouldn't have been a pompous ass and should've actually administrated his realm. For Christ's sakes, the man loses to the Sw*ss along with his precious jewels and furs, then throws a hissy fit and tried to muscle up any army he can for pride. What did he expect with empty coffers? He deserved every arrow.
I feel bad for his daughter. Imagine being trapped with those peasants, being forced to enact laws under threat of death. Thank God for Louis XI.

This is the legacy of the Dukes of Burgundy.

*Maximilian I
fixed your post for ya

No, most Flemings and Duch people are fluent in English especially the youth. But it wouldn't hurt if you learned a few phrases or stuff

>Charles the Bold
It's Charles the Rash.

If Charlie wanted the land bridge, he should have just wed his daughter to the duke of Lorraine

Is Belgium a successor state of Burgundy, in some way? People there take pride in burgundian influence

The books by Richard Vaughan on the Dukes of Burgundy are pretty good.

>Gee, what a dumbass, marrying his daughter and sole heir into the most influential family of Europe, when he could just marry her to that minor duke to gain virtually nothing
Medieval politics are not Ck2, lad

I'd plow his field any day of the week (except Sunday) if you know what I mean.

Here ended the legacy of the Dukes. From here on, Spain would take the lead

>lives in Burgundy
What a shithole

Under Phillip the Good was like the comfiest place on Europe though

Maximilian was a terrible ruler

Sure, but if it wasn't for him, Maria wouldn't be able to hold her duchy for long. Also, he reconquered Guelre and artois

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In burgundy we have an expression:

In Grandson Charles lost his wealth, in Morat he lost his honnor and in Nancy he lost his life. Very sad.
Fucking swiss, they have builded an ossuary just after the war and a war have been made to destroy this piece of shit.
Today nothing really change, swiss prepare themself to the next war against burgundy when france will falldown. i can prove it:
lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/09/29/un-exercice-militaire-suisse-simule-l-attaque-d-une-france-surendettee_3486756_3214.html

The title:
A swiss military exercice simulated an attaque of bankrupt france. the article saying swissguys thinking if France collaps the county and the duchy of burgundy will merge into a new state calling Saonia ( the old roman Sapaudia) and attack switzerland to recover the treasury which the swiss have stole

Was the Swiss plundering the riches of Burgundy the beginning to their modern reputation as a very wealthy country?

Putains de suisses

After the siege of Grandson
>the men only gave up when Charles assured them they [the swiss garrison] would be spared. The historian Panigarola, who was with Charles, claimed that the garrison had thrown themselves on the mercy of the duke, and it was up to his discretion what to do with them. He ordered all 412 men of the garrison to be executed and hanged their bodies from trees.

What the fuck was his problem? He deserved what happened to him and worse. Shame that Phillip had such a piece of shit as son

>What the fuck was his problem?
Swiss

That's not an excuse to be a dick

Why would French swear loyalty to their English serfs ?

Reminder that Charles literally fell into a depression following Morat and that he started drinking heavily and stopped shaving.

Nancy seems like a suicide attempt.

No wonder, the most powerful army in Europe was defeated two times and wiped out by fucking peasants, and only because the retard didn't bother to send scouts to control the enemy movements

Why are there no pictures of him with a beard?

Lack of money, probably

But there is.

At least I think this is him, ill search for a bit more.

Or this

i´ll post the accompanying text.

No, it was just a little income ( yes a great little income) but no enought to make the a rich state as you know, the true benefit in this war for swiss has to really built an helvetic identity

enculés de suisses

he was not calling the bold for nothing, in france we calling him the terrible, yes he was truely a good guy but, with a dark side. for hanging the garrison that was a terror strategie to win the war, terrible mistake...terrible mistake.

yes and no, he was educated to be the best so any mistake, any faillure is felling like a terrible shame. In Nancy the war was not lost yet, i know it's common to say after Morat the game was fucked for him, but it's wrong, and he try to keep the control of the situation by controling the town. Everything was maintained by his lineage, the only thing he have to, was to survive and make a son, god damned just fuck a pussy night and day. Tfw you cannot conquer Europa and become the new carolus magnus

It keeps amazing me how his father had like 20 bastard Children and Charles the Manlet only ever got a daughter.

gross

haha yes, for his defense he truely love his wife Isabelle of Bourbon and daughter Marie, it's difficult to enderstand in this era, a big guy like him can fuck every women but he doesn't feel this need because she was the love of his life, when she died the depression began slowly

I don't know if he was good or bad, but he was a total asshole. If you promise to give quarter, the decent thing to do is to follow your word and keep the garrison alive

i cannot disagree with you this time, i am the kind of people who think there no "rules" in a time of war but if you give you word you must follow. Like i said that was a terrible mistake, this act just motived every cantons to joining the war against him.

I walked from Ghent to Bruges once. It's not even that far.

The Swiss happened

Not even that, Charles' army was able to defeat the swiss, but the utter ineptitude of Charles the Boulderhead to gather information of the whereabouts of the enemy caused his defeat in Grandson and Morat.

Any drawings willing to draw a drunk, unshaven Charles the Bold?

Burgundy bump

Bourgogne, Burgundy, burgund, Burgonda bump

Their traditional dishes are tasty

t. someone eating bœuf bourguignon

Is it a medieval recipe?

A lot of traditional recipies come from the Middle Ages

Are there any sources on what it was like to live in Burgundy during this period?

>Charles' army was able to defeat the swiss,
Nope, they lost every single field battle, big time.

What If?

Not sure, but most French recipes can be traced back to the Middle Age/Renaissance.

Read the whole post.

>Lancaster
>Ruling house of Burgundy
Shouldn't it be the house of Habsburg?

After reading the infobox it seems to be from some alternate universe in which England seemed to rock. Maybe an English victory in the 100YW

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Did Burgunds talk french or nederland gibberish ?