How do you rate him?

mediocre general
piece of shit person

Who would have been a better alternative?

He was the villain that the USSR needed, and kinda the one it deserved

Good general; areas that he was assigned to almost immediately stabilized when the fronts were otherwise collapsing, he was also extremely well organized and a good planner. However, while he didn't make that many mistakes, he tended to make the ones that he would make over and over again. He especially had a penchant for substituting speed and surprise for brute force, trying to take local mobility infrastructure (bridges, railyards, etc.) intact instead of blasting away with lots of artillery as his peers would have done. It did not always work well, and even when it did, he often couldn't exploit it because other Front commanders wouldn't be doing the same thing, and he couldn't make the most of his advances because he would leave his flanks exposed.

Zapp Brannigan/10

He killed millions.

>"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." - Zhukov

Worst general ever. Loses 8 million troops, does proportionately worse in the northern districts, had air and armor advantages in the beginning and the end and still did terrible.

To save dozens.

>always thought this was another Zhukov shitposting quote
>it's real

It's also completely out of context.

There's only one context for this quote user.

Not even wrong.

>There's only one context for this quote user.
Yes, the context is that your troops are going to take far more casualties being bombarded by enemy artillery while stuck at one end of the minefield waiting for engineers than they will just crossing the damn thing immediately.

>Yes, the context is that your troops are going to take far more casualties being bombarded by enemy artillery while stuck at one end of the minefield waiting for engineers than they will just crossing the damn thing immediately.

Such a sovietboo you're going to make up a circumstance to validate it. The correct answer in the situation you just fabricated is a full retreat of the infantry. And the context for the quote was a general rule. Look up Hartmann's autobiography. He was a German ace who said the Soviets were flying low, slow, and in formation without even taking evasive maneuvers when he was gunning them down but the dozens. The form of thought in Zhukov's quote is systemic to communism. Not even the USSR. We saw it in Mao's China. We saw it in their war with India. We saw it in Rhodesia. It's odd communists everywhere would have a set strategic outlook so directly influenced by their spamming proles strategy but they do and Zhukov was no exception. He was an archetype of the rule.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dingo

I wonder who could be behind this post.

Rokossovsky

>all communists ever use the same tactics

Read maos theory of peoples war, then read che's foci, then read tchukatevskys deep battle doctrine, then go fuck yourself

>oh shit theres a minefeild
>full retreat

Military genius

>On November 18, during the last-ditch efforts of the Wehrmacht to encircle Moscow in 1941, General Rokossovsky, his soldiers under heavy pressure from Hoepner's 4th Panzer Group, asked his immediate superior, Zhukov, if he could withdraw the 16th Army to more advantageous positions. Zhukov categorically refused. Rokossovsky went over Zhukov's head, and spoke directly to Marshal Boris Shaposhnikov, now Chief of the General Staff in Zhukov's place; reviewing the situation Shaposhnikov immediately ordered a withdrawal. Zhukov reacted at once. He revoked the order of the superior officer, and ordered Rokossovsky to hold the position. In the immediate aftermath, Rokossovsky's army was pushed aside and the 3rd and 4th Panzer Groups were able to gain strategically important positions north of Moscow, but this marked the high point of the German advance upon Moscow.
Zhukov the madman

You throw a carpet over a mine field so you can cross is safely

No you give it back to the enemy and turn it into a yourfield. Then it's safe to walk on.

Tukachevsky

zergrush/10

>those who disagree with the parties conduct in this war is a fascist spy and will be shot

I'd say never change, but you don't have a choice.

Jokes on you, I've read two of the three. Tukachevsky was actually purged, so commies killed their greatest theorist in the USSR. That tells us even more about communist treatment of innovators.

If the enemy has such a number of artillery to make stalling untenable and a minefield to absorb a charge, the moving forward isn't exactly a pro move either. In the scenario provided, the artillery could just be directly fired at those charging past the minefield- and yet user argued charging? Yes, coming up with and defending that action in that scenario would make any normie look like an expert using basically any alternative.

>"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there."
Thats literally what Montgomery did at El Alamein
>you attack and your way is blocked by the minefield
>correct answer is full retreat
>Look up Hartmann's autobiography. He was a German ace who said the Soviets were flying low, slow, and in formation without even taking evasive maneuvers when he was gunning them down but the dozens.
Its not like your planes have to keep a fucking formation so their gunners can kill enemy fighters, or that this was a reason why were IL-2 round attacks nightmare for hunnic tanks and planes.
>reddit spacing

>so commies killed their greatest theorist in the USSR
Tell me how was Eastern Front won by fast decisive offensives and not atrittion warfare
>In the scenario provided, the artillery could just be directly fired at those charging past the minefield
So what is the alternative? "Full retreat"? War isnt a videogame, sometimes you have to sacrifice something in order to achieve victory.

Which battle of El Alamein? I know Rommel used mines extensively but I want to see where Montgomery was employing that as a standard practice. Obviously if someone is in a minefield, they very well could be at the end of it and charge thinking they'll get out of it, wait on air cover, etc with the point being there's options. I want to see Montgomery employ his men as meatbags as his first option, because I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of his style given the rest of the campaign.

>Its not like your planes have to keep a fucking formation so their gunners can kill enemy fighters, or that this was a reason why were IL-2 round attacks nightmare for hunnic tanks and planes.

No actually, the planes are supposed to move out of formation when being engaged. Not necessarily for fighters, but necessarily for bombers. You don't have to take my word for it. Take the words of an irl actual ace. And no, IL-2's were not a nightmare for planes. That's pretty fucking delusional lmao you're well beyond the pale here m8

So it looks like you don't actually know what reddit spacing is.

Here, let me help you.

It looks something like this.

>itt buttmad communists

>So what is the alternative? "Full retreat"? War isnt a videogame, sometimes you have to sacrifice something in order to achieve victory.
>proceeds to sacrifice 28 million people
>proceeds to kill 40 million through civil policies and failed reform
>proceeds to cry about the evil of Germans

wew

>Tell me how was Eastern Front won by fast decisive offensives and not atrittion warfare

Ironically it looks like the Soviets somehow managed to combine the two

pic related is a reddit space you nigger
>Which battle of El Alamein? I know Rommel used mines extensively but I want to see where Montgomery was employing that as a standard practice.
Second one, offensive of the 10th Armoured Division against the 15th Panzer is the best example.
>No actually, the planes are supposed to move out of formation when being engaged. Not necessarily for fighters, but necessarily for bombers.
Are you literally retarded? Show me a single example where soemone allied bomber formation to spread when they got attacked.
>And no, IL-2's were not a nightmare for planes. That's pretty fucking delusional lmao you're well beyond the pale here m8
Yes, they were because its hard as shit to attack plane that has heavy protection and is coevered by its own rear gunner and by the plane behind it.

*when someone ordered allied bomber formation to spread

>if you understand your military goals, priorities and basic military tactics, you are a communist

I agree with you on ground forces in general that the IL-2 was literally hell on earth for the Germans, there are records of them just strafing AA without giving a fuck and getting out alive while inflicting casualties. Manstein himself even mentioned in 1942:
>It came to the fact that the anti-aircraft batteries hesitated to open fire in order not to be immediately overwhelmed by the air raids
On planes though I just want to clarify most German pilots and generals agreed that it was the anti-aircraft artillery that was doing the most damage and were the biggest nuisance to the Luftwaffe, not IL-2s or whatever.
>In the Germans’ opinion, the Luftwaffe’s chief opponent in 1941 was not the RKKA air force but the Soviet anti-aircraft gunners, whose intense and accurate fire the Nazi ace Hans-Ulrich Rudel repeatedly noted in his memoirs. Other Luftwaffe pilots agreed. For example, the commander of a bomber squadron, Wolfgang Deirich, repeatedly wrote of the ‘dense, precise, and very dangerous fire from the Russian anti-aircraft artillery’, which applied heavy losses to the Luftwaffe as early as the first days of the German invasion:
>Sixteen men of the flight personnel (15 complete crews) were killed or missing; in Group III alone, because of damage, 14 airplanes were unserviceable or destroyed and were completely wrecked — losses of 50 percent…. The old, experienced crews who carried out many missions over France, England, and Yugoslavia did not return…. By 30 June in the [bomber squadron] KG 51 the number of airplanes and crews was reduced to one-third of staff.57
>German commanders agree on one thing: They all were amazed by the effectiveness of the enemy air-craft artillery, since the German command considered it outdated and hardly dangerous.
It was only somewhere in 1943 that the Russian air force started pushing Luftwaffe's shit in and the luftwaffe was only capable of attaining local air dominance

My point was that it was hard to attack and shoot down, i know that for example B-17 isnt realy ideal dogfight airplane, but you dont want to be in the pilot seat of plane that is about to attack American bomber formation.

>Zapp Brannigan
youtu.be/h4f2vYh0EsM

...

funniest thing about this is that "Zhukov's greatest defeat" is Pyrrhic victory at worst

Good post.

>My point was that it was hard to attack and shoot down
>B-17 isnt realy ideal dogfight airplane
Retard alert!

wew lad going hard on these fools

He gains a medal for every division that dies in action, three for minefields

You have to be based to not fall over forward with all this salad on your chest.

Alright, fair enough, just wanted to clarify a bit more, in case someone got confused like me.

lol old Veeky Forums thread with lulzy Zhukov memes
>tfw I think I'm in there somewhere
yuki.la/his/1862251

Poster above just cited Mars. They lost 2.5x the number of men and took no objectives. If this was bait it was good

>You see, Germans have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and surrendered. Dimitri, show them the medals I won.

How did Zhukov get those medals?

>"Generalissimo Stalin directed every move... made every decision... He is the greatest and wisest military genius who ever lived..." - Zhukov

The definition of brown nosing. He really was Zap Brannigan.

whatever you say brainlet, B-17 is a jet fighter
No, but it lowered pressure on another Soviet formations along the front and its long time outcome was Huns abandoning Rzhev

Yeah that Glantz book is interesting for that just reason
>Zhukov and Stalin jousting about Stalin's plans
>Zhukov trying to do what Stalin says while trying not to smash the Red Army to bits

>whatever you say brainlet, B-17 is a jet fighter
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress

So to be clear, this was bait?

>No, but it lowered pressure on another Soviet formations along the front and its long time outcome was Huns abandoning Rzhev

Oh so it is.

I'll dig into it. I always felt something was off about Glantz but I'll give it a fair go.

>actually Zhukov is the soviet general Grant
interdasting parallel

your literally claim that iam retard because i said B-17 isnt ideal dogfight airplane you nigger

>five minutes ago...
>whatever you say brainlet, B-17 is a jet fighter
>looks up picture to check
>B literally stands for Bomber no way he could fuck this up
>jets weren't used outside of Germany until the war was over
>must be a master baiter
>says B17's were dodging shit at low altitude like an IL2 would have to and sticks with it

user I have bad news for you....

>jets weren't used outside of Germany until the war was over
>What is the Gloster Meteor
>What is the P-80 Shooting Star

are you realy that retarded?

>jets weren't used outside of Germany until the war was over

>P80
>Before World War II ended, however, two American pre-production Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star fighter jets did see limited service in Italy with the USAAF on reconnaissance, in February and March 1945.[9] Because of delays in delivery of production aircraft, the Shooting Star saw no actual combat during the conflict.

I mean I guess you're technically right here, to say that they were used. Frankly I got so absolutely hysterical that someone could fuck up a B designation by calling it a fighter and suggest they were using jets instead of props I couldn't handle myself. On top of implying the B17's would be jinking at all or somehow comparable to low flying IL2 CAS bombers it was just too much to contain

>samefagging this hard

I know you're going to reply with a denial, but you might as well not waster your time or captcha limits. Only the user that fucked up what I said above would get this hamfisted over something that's in practice pretty true

sure thing seppo

>gets called out on his stupidity
>S-samefag!

>sticking to samefag denial

Holy shit this is tedious. I suppose I should stop responding, but the whole reason this is obvious is because the thing you said about B17 being a jet fighter and actually jinking as a reliable maneuver on top of being comparable to an IL2 is just so absolutely pants on head retarded being semi-wrong but absolutely correct about jet fighter deployment would be pretty fucking retarded for anyone walking in on this. The fact you samefag this hard and just stick to it like it means something tells me you can't be over 17. Get off Veeky Forums please.

>technically right
No, I'm right. They were "in use" before the war was over, sure it was reconnaisance and pre-production tier. But I am still right that Jets were used by Murrica before ww2 was over, as your statement was:
>jets weren't used outside of Germany until the war was over
And not
>jets weren't used in air-to-air combat outside of Germany until the war was over
Wikipedia also agrees with me
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jet_aircraft_of_World_War_II
Finally, you seem to have misunderstood b-17 user's statement entirely. He was arguing that the B-17 wasn't an ideal dogfighting plane, but it was hard to kill due to the fact that it was heavily armored and well-protected, much like the IL-2 (it was called the flying tank for a reason), not that it can dogfight. Your reply to him saying "Retard alert!" looked like you were making fun of his statement that the b-17 wasn't a dogfighting plane, so he replied, in a mocking (and sarcastic) manner that the B-17 was clearly a jet fighter!

>He was arguing that the B-17 wasn't an ideal dogfighting plane, but it was hard to kill due to the fact that it was heavily armored and well-protected, much like the IL-2

Hartmann would like a word with you on the effectiveness of that design.

>so he replied, in a mocking (and sarcastic) manner that the B-17 was clearly a jet fighter!

Oh right, only pretending to be retarded. Gotcha lmao

>No, I'm right. They were "in use" before the war was over, sure it was reconnaisance and pre-production tier. But I am still right that Jets were used by Murrica before ww2 was over, as your statement was:

Technically the jet engine goes back to a British conception in 35. I should've been more clear, I didn't know winning such a slight technicality was this important to you. I'm proud of you sweetie you did good tonight

>Hartmann would like a word with you on the effectiveness of that design.
You know who'd like to have a word with Hartmann and you? Lieutenant Colonel Friedrich Greffrath
>Luftwaffe Lieutenant Colonel Friedrich Greffrath wrote of the underrating by the German command of both the number and quality of the Soviet air force:‘A great surprise for the Germans was, for example, the appearance among the Russians of the fighter plane Il-2. This aircraft had good armor protection and therefore was not very vulnerable"
Now provide me a source for Hartmann shittalking the IL-2's armor. IL-2s made up less than 5% of Hartmann's victories, keep that in mind...

>Oh right, only pretending to be retarded. Gotcha lmao
Yoru statement was
>b-17 isn't an ideal dogfighting plane
>retard alert!
This isn't so much as "pretending to be retarded" as you not knowing how to write clearly.

>Technically the jet engine goes back to a British conception in 35.
Nothing to do with combat service
>I should've been more clear,
No, you shouldn't have been retarded and read up on WW2 aircraft. Had you known anything about the Gloster Meteor or Shooting Star (or ww2 aviation in general) you would've never made such a mistake.
Cite me sources in your next post, or you are simply an angsty 16 year old who wanks it to Jerries.

Oops looks like Erich Hartmann himself had experienced the effectiveness of the IL-2, here's a quotation from a book on his entire fucking life
>He could see his cannon shells and machine-gun bullets striking the Stormovik. They were bouncing off! Damn that heavy armor plate. All the old tigers had warned about the IL-2's armor. The Stormovik was the toughest aircraft in the air. He remembered a talk that ace Alfred Grislawski had given him about the IL-2 as he watched his ricocheting bullets. There was a way to nail the Stormovik. Grislawski had told him and he thought about Grislawski's method now. "Try it, Erich. Try it." He was shouting aloud to himself over the roar of his guns.
Raymond F. Toliver, Trevor J. Constable, The Blond Knight of Germany: A Biography of Erich Hartmann, p.45

Oops looks like this is mentioned multiple times
>The Russian fighter pilots were the most formidable air opposition on the Eastern Front, but the toughest bird in the air, as we have said, was the redoubtable IL-2 Stormovik. The Russian fighter-bomber was not as maneuverable as the YAKs, MIGs and Laggs, nor as fast, but it could absorb quantities of bullets and shells that often left German pilots pop-eyed with incredulity. Cannon shells and tracer could actually be seen bouncing away from the heavily armored cockpit area of this incredibly tough machine.
ibid, p. 89
Now you can stop pretending as if you know anything about WW2 aviation.

are you realy THIS retarded? Do you understand that saying "isnt ideal dogfight airplane" means its not good plane for dogfights?

Absolute Madman!