ITT: Historical figures who story genuinely makes you feel sad

Can't we have a civil discussion?

What aspects?

Certain methods of executions, activities of some camps, numbers, and the effect of typhus and Allied bombing towards the end.

There are survivors who claim they were gassed multiple times, or moved to several different death camps while somehow avoiding being put to death. It strikes me a situation where some people are taking advantage of a tragedy for personal gain by selling their suspicious stories.

The methods of execution cited by historians are confirmed by various independent reports. I haven't seen a book in which a historian was arguing that prisoners were fed to lions for example I think all similar stories are never mentioned because of lack of evidence and seens as singular cases of misinformation caused by either stress, madness or desire to get attention just like stole valor stories don't disprove military operations for example.
Activities? I know knothing about that there haven't been any major developments in this field of investigation lately? Numbers? Rather consistent for a long time at least in western historiography. Jumping one or two million in this or that way is nothing compared to some other acts of genocide that because of lack of information might have claimed between 1 and 15 million lives.

>christkike
He deserved bad treatment, LOL.

I'm being kind of broad but in particular I'm not really talking about Jewish victims.

To start with one topic, the number of other victims.

jta.org/2017/01/31/news-opinion/united-states/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians

But none of those have changed in any significant way. Since you say "the effect of Allied bombing" I assume you're just an idiot repeating stormtard propaganda.

The discussion in that article is about what falls under the "holocaust" label, and not about the amount of people that die, retard.

go back to /b/

That's a good point. What constitutes the Holocaust exactly? How many people died in it and who counts? Only Jews? Only people in camps? I can see why it still drives such a debate.

>t. illiterate moron

In most books I've read historians write how the number 5 million non-Jews is completely made up.
First of all in order to reach the number of 6 million Jews we'd have to include Jewish civilians killed outside of the camps AND Polish-Jews some of whom considered themselves fully Polish. That's around 3 million people shared between Jews and Poles (with additional 3 million victims for each separately).

The number of non-Jewish civilians killed during WWII in and outside of the camps is far greater than 5 million if we were to use the same calculations of both victims of the camps and war outside of the camps. And that's not even counting people killed by the Soviets or caught in the war between Germany and USSR.

Wiki for example calls AB Aktion part of the Holocaust. And when Richard Lucas wrote a book called Forgotten Holocaust about non-Jewish Polish victims he was criticized of being "pro-Polish" and blacklisted by NYT.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_AB-Aktion_in_Poland

>"He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million."

I suspected that desu. Yehuda Bauer changed a lot over time. He used to be the one to care only about Jewish victims while everyone else was supposed to be witnesses at best. Now he understands how complicated the situation was.

Still has something of a victim complex.

Hi OP.

>Is questioning any part of the narrative "holocaust denial"?
Problem is that pol-niggers don't know the narrative. They keep claiming that the narrative is that 6 millions were gassed. For example.
Or they quote and try to disprove the Gerstein report when already in the 60s his report was considered to be exaggerated. The "narrative" is one on of the best researched fields in history with 100s of historians doing research in Germany alone. It's an ongoing scientific discussion. /pol/ doesn't know that because /pol/ doesn't read (books).
The systamtic extermationation of millions of Jews aiming at killing all Jews. It's seperate from other mass murders like the Porajmos. The killing of Poles and Russians is categorically different because there was no intention of killing Poles and Russians as such completly.

I unironically believe that claims like Nazis making lampshades out of skin and turning prisoners into soap is nothing but a bunch of horseshit. I'm gonna guess that it started out as a joke guards would tell the prisoners to scare them and they believed it. I also believe that the death toll should slightly lower because of things like uncounted survivors (ex. children who were left in the care of neighbors), deaths being counted twice (ex. get deported to Auschwitz, get transfered to Dachau and then die, you'll be listed on the death toll of both), and deaths that shouldn't be counted but are (ex. Jewish persons in Poland who were executed by the Soviets). The overall narrative I believe though.

Even if you discounted all of the Holocaust as bullshit, Nazism would still be completely indefensible for its flagrant aggression and other atrocities such as the massacres at Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane.

>The killing of Poles and Russians is categorically different because there was no intention of killing Poles and Russians as such completly.

I bet that made those groups of Polish population that were intended to be killed off completely in various actions in the first months of occupation feel better. Or that only 85% of Polisj population was to be subjected to complete removal.

Lampshade got debunked, soap got confirmed.

>IM NOT A DENIER I JUST HAVE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS!

t. stormfag denier

>strawman: the post
It's a research term defining an action by the intent.
>Polish population that were intended to be killed off completely
>hurr I am making stuff up
Literally nobody denies that there were ethnical cleansings in Poland (Katyn, Eastern Galicia). You could even go as far and call it a genocide (I would agree).
It's still different from what happened to Jews because Jews were not an ethnos. And there were no plans to get rid of Poles entirely.

Really? Because I think it's bullshit not because the Nazis weren't that cruel (or stupid), but it gets in the way of their keeping the Holocaust a secret. You can't exactly say Jews are being deported East and have soap labeled "made from Jews" circulating the open market at the same time.

There were plans to get rid of Polish elite (politicians, officers, academics, clergy) and leave only a small portion of the population that would be basically a slave class.
By Polish I have to assume that Polish-Jewish people are still included since many of them considered themselves exclusively Polish but that's rather obvious. Same thing was true for other Jews in European countries.

And that started in 1940 and the terror only got worse. The decision to kill off the jews wasn't a thing since day 1 but after Germany stopped in the Soviet Union so the original plan to transport them beyond Ural was no longer possible. Of course the killings were taking place before 1942 but there's a clear reason why they accelerated after that date.

I don't know what was with the soap but I know it was confirmed to exist. It was a recent discovery if I remember. Probably not made on industrial scale and I don't think human fat is good for this sort of processing.
Holocaust survivors in Israel were called sabon which means "soap" in Hebrew.

Not the guy you've been responding to, but look up a guy named Sigmund Mazur, then a laboratory assistant at the Danzig Anatomical Institute.

It wasn't done on any sort of large scale, I think they only made about 80 kg of the stuff; it was more of an experiment into the feasibility of "corpse soap" than something that was being mass produced.

>keeping the Holocaust a secret
See this is where I doubt you people know the narrative.
a) The secret holocaust is a German post-war-narrative (hurr we didn't know). They knew that Jews were disappearing and Hitler repeatedly talked about their extermination in public ("Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse"). Especially after WWII started.
b) They could have just labeled the shades and the soaps differently.
c) Neither for soap nor for the shade exist accounts claiming they were mass produced.
I mentioned Katyn already.
>Same thing was true for other Jews in European countries.
No, Jews were not meant to be a slave race.
>The decision to kill off the jews wasn't a thing since day 1
Strawman. Also read Mein Kampf. And listen to any Hitler speech after the war started.
Yes, there is a connection between the war and the holocaust i.e. the acceleration of the extermination but Snyder, Götz Aly and Michael Wildt all pretty much agree it was due to the fact that the Nazis were running out of time and at least wanted to accomplish one major goal - die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa.

>Steinweis

...

lol, I knew the le 56% face was a kike meme over butthurt about being "not whie"

I don't even know what you are talking about but there are 5 historians mentioned in that post and you ad hominem the one Jew pretty much proving what kind of utter retard you are.

Its okay Chaim, no need to get mad.

>I mentioned Katyn already.
Katyn was Soviet-made I was talking about German operations. I don't know why you immediately assumed that if we were talking about German crimes such as AB-Aktion, Intelligenzaktion or Operation Tannenberg. And those are only general names of the operations there were many more and massacres and other ordeals of the occupation that applied to every citizen.

>No, Jews were not meant to be a slave race.
I meant that many Jews in European countries were fully assimilated and considered themselves to be a part of the host nation.

>Also read Mein Kampf
Early 20s. I'd rather focus on reading more relevant sources made later especially once Hitler came into power. Stormfags linking to irrelevant shit like Haavara Agreement are right in one thing that Hitler just like in his choice of allies, had many options prepared. He wanted Jews out of Europe that was constant. By 1942 the only way was through the chimney but everything before that suggests that there were many options on the table (Palestine, Madagascar, Ural). Including Generalplan Ost which by the way would hit in many nations not such one. Jewish fascists were in contact with Mussolini and some later right wing activists such as Abraham Stern were trying to ally with Hitler but by then it was already too late for that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#At_the_Nuremberg_trials

Why are rebs still butthurt about something that happened more than 170 years ago?

There is nothing you can do that will make a group of people as angry as defeating them in a just war.

Yeah I know. Apparently this amused Goering. USA and UK have always been full of shit about this "good war". Germany and USSR were morally comparable.

>See this is where I doubt you people know the narrative.

I know the Holocaust wasn't really a secret to the German people as a whole, but the German government nonetheless was trying their hardest to keep it a secret to save face. Even the Nazis were smart enough to realize mass murdering an entire ethnic group would be a PR disaster, giving their enemies (both internal and external) all the excuses they would ever need to drag them alive through the dirt in the streets (as Erwin von Witzleben put it).

Ultimately, that's exactly what happened.

>t. didn't read other posts
sad

Yeah, that's external propaganda. Entirely not much of an effort was made.

*internally

...

>economic reforms
Not even memeing FDRs presidencally shared some traits with fascism.

Yeah FDR was a failure. Strange how stormfags also praise Hitler's economic ideas that were pretty much the same keynesian shit.

Mussolini was praising them so that's correct.

It's even on the wiki page so it's pretty much confirmed at this point.
>inherit a depression
>end up as the most powerfuk country in the history of the world
>hurr FDR is shit

And what does FDR have to do with USA ending up as the most powerful country in the world? Unless you believe that Pearl Harbour was an inside job.

>increase government spending to unprecedented levels
not at all really, compared to Germany
>military spending reaches 35% of GDP
which year? is he really surprised that this metric increases during wartime? germany was spending nearly 19% of their GDP on military spending in 1938, compared to 1.3% in the US

why are c*nfederates so against cultural evolution. we wouldn't have the shitfest that's black people today in america

It was actually more than 35%, more like 42%. Which was penny ante stuff for WW2 (except for Italy, which is in its own tier of shit) See pic related. The other major powers spent WAY higher than the U.S. as fractions of their national economies.

Probably the fact he was president until he died in 1945

>civil discussion
>about the holocaust
>on Veeky Forums
>with a dangerous influx of /pol/ inmigrants
>when there is a serious risk of narrative manipulation by holocaust deniers

Either you are a retarded faggot or a denier trying to "i'm just asking questions" so fuck you.

I don't like how it's talked about constantly on Veeky Forums while so many other interesting topics get no responses but I'm fine with these threads. /pol/ refugees can come they've never won this debate anyway.

These

someone post about Louis Charles

>There are survivors who claim they were gassed multiple times
You mean frauds who no historian takes seriously. What random attention-seeking retards say isn't part of the "narrative".

You're the only one keeping this discussion from being civlized right now.

My great-grandmother was a 12 year old who got put on a Kindertransport out of Poland weeks before the war began and wound up being one of two members of her family who survived (she didn't know about the other until the end of the Cold War). She used to call people published memoirs about surviving the camps dupki (Polish word for asshole). Absolutely hated being referred to as a "Holocaust survivor". Even her husband, who had the inhibitions and sensitivity one might expect of a racist Southerner, was careful not to discuss it in her presence.

Anyone who suffered in a war started by the Nazis.

>bring country into war for no reason
>both Japan and Germany declare war on him
That doesn't seem like no reason for me

I've recently taken an interest in the deportations and illegal killings of poles, lithuanians, estonians and latvians by the soviets. Fucking awful that shit is.
Makes me sad as shit.

>We automatically mounted the machine gun for action. Then like animals we burrowed into the earth as if trying to find protection deep in its bosom. Something struck my back where I carried my gas mask, but I did not pay attention to it. A steel splinter broke the handle of my spade and another knocked the remains out of my hand. I kept digging with my bare hands, ducking my head every time a shell exploded nearby. A boy to my side was hit in the arm and cried out for help. I crawled over to him, ripped the sleeves of his coat and shirt open and started to bind the bleeding part. The gas was so thick now I could hardly discern what I was doing. My eyes began to water and I felt as if I would choke. I reached for my gas mask, pulled it out of its container – then noticed to my horror that a splinter had gone through it leaving a large hole. I had seen death thousands of times, stared it in the face, but never experienced the fear I felt then. Immediately I reverted to the primitive. I felt like an animal cornered by hunters. With the instinct of self-preservations uppermost, my eyes fell on the boy whose arm I had bandaged. Somehow he had managed to put the gas mask on his face with his one good arm. I leapt at him and in the next moment had ripped the gas mask from his face. With a feeble gesture he tried to wrench it from my grasp; then fell back exhausted. The last thing I saw before putting on the mask were his pleading eyes.

Corporal Frederick Meisel, 371 Infantry Regiment, 43rd Ersatz Brigade, 10th Ersatz Division, German Army

god damn

...

god fucking damnit

What a fag lmao

>knowingly join a vocally and violently anti-semitic party and paramilitary
>make up sob-story alibi and snitch when the allies catch you
>expect any amount of sympathy whatsoever
Good riddance.

>be elected youngest member of National Convention
>random irrelevant dude
>suddenly give speech about the King
>literally convince everyone to chop his head off
>become best bros with Robespierre
>write badass 1793 constitution
>suddenly French army being btfo'd in Alsace
>be sent as commissar
>whip army into shape, crush faggy royalist scum
>be sent to whip second army into shape because hes so successful
>deal with bullshit drama back in Paris, have to cut the heads off of a bunch of traitors
>sent back to the army
>Crush the first coalition at Fleurus
>turn the tide of the war
>literal hero, taught the monarch to fear the Jacobin warrior
>scum tries to depose Robespierre
>stand by his bro because he' not a rat
>be booed and stand firm in face of opposition that means certain death
>troops arrive and save you temporarily, vindicating your loyalty
>its ll for naught, the traitors arive and capture you all
>only one to walk out of the battle intact, head held high
>marched up to guillotine
>points to constitution
>says "I wrote that" before being killed

literally makes me cry to think of his story. He died at 26, having accomplished more than most people do in a whole lifetime. He dominated politics and military matters. And scumbag traitors had to put a knife in his back ;_;

Give me the straight dope here Veeky Forums. Was this guy legit? Because it seems that joining the SS with the intent of trying to reform it either being dangerously naive or lying out your ass.

Read OP. It was clealy enough of a secret to allow for plausible denial or to be dismissed as a rumour. If it wasn't, Gerstein would have known about it before witnessing it.

>Anne had Down's syndrome.De Gaulle always had a particular love for Anne; one Colombey resident recalled how he used to walk with her hand-in-hand around the property, caressing her and talking quietly about the things she understood.
>Anne died of pneumonia on 6 February 1948, aged 20, at Colombey-les-Deux-Églises. Upon her death, her father said: "Now, she's like the others."
>On 22 August 1962, Charles de Gaulle was the victim of an attempted assassination at Petit-Clamart. He later said that the potentially fatal bullet had been stopped by the frame of the photograph of Anne that he always carried with him; placed this particular day on the rear shelf of his car. When he died in 1970, he was buried in the cemetery of Colombey beside his beloved daughter.

...

a real human bean...

>be self-proclaimed Christian
>commits suicide
Literally Borgia Papacy-tier in terms of hypocrisy.

>more than 170 years ago
>before 1848
What?

both Franz Josef and Rudolf man....

>french revolutionary
>convincing france to kill an innocent man
actually disgusting

it hurts

Yes. People call me a Holocaust denier simply because I don't believe the camps were originally designed as death camps.

OP here
What the fuck did this thread turn into?

Based kylo ren

just another holocaust 'discussion' thread.