Christianity in Feudal Japan

it's a mystery

Jesuites told the Japanese what had happened to the Native American empires that got “Christianized”

why didn't the portuguese went to war over it then? would they have won?

Gee i wonder why, its not like c*tholic chimped out or anything

Nope

They only chimped out after a ton of persecution, though.

obligatory Dark Souls derivative with Shiro as mc fucking when

Basically Hideyoshi found out that the missionaries were also taking Japanese people as slaves for elsewhere in Asia and Americas. And later on under Tokugawa Christians were more and more seen as fifth column through which European powers could take over Japan.

t. liberal wh*Te bitch boi

youtube.com/watch?v=XkINjqLet-U

Catholic Japan would have been 300% kino

>wow... noble nippon rock-worshippers did not bown down to the evil semitic (((religion)))... such a noble people

Catholic Japan would have become a colony of either Portugal and ended up in a situation similar to that of the Philippines

Because Japs are insectoid subhumans that can’t accept the beauty that is Christianity.

Illiud

This, couldn't have said it better myself :)

Oh look, an ass-ravaged christard. I wish the whole wide world rejected your idiotic desert cult with the same ferocity. The romans didn't go far enough, too many bible thumpers and too few lions to feed them to.

literally just catholics being niggers and chimped out as usual the japs were fine with protestant and even let the dutch have dejima island as their trading post because they were more concerned with trade instead of jesuit niggers

They weren't fine with native protestant, tho. They tolerated the Dutch because the sea jews don't care about proselytizing. Also because they wanted dem sweet dutch studies and the Dutch wanted lacquerware and other weeb shit.

>japs were fine with protestant and even let the dutch have dejima island
The Dutch weren't allowed to erect churches and were banned from entering any other part of Japan without Escort.

disregard everything that's been said in this thread; the actual reason for the tokugawa persecution of christians is because it helped the cause of centralisation. by banning christianity and persecuting its adherents, the shogunate created a legitimization for increased centralisation as well as military build up

This.
But to be fair, nips have no souls so Christianity might have been pointless for them anyway.

Only a matter of time given the media Japan throws Amakusa into.

...

Nothing to do with religion itself. They were concerned by foreign influences, menacing unity and loyalty.
What people citing dejima fail to say is that it was more a nice prison than a trading post. Trade was strictly regulated so was permission to leave the "island" for mainland (almost impossible and with a military escort).
Making this a religion question is a non sense.

Christianity would have taken hold in Japan if Oda Nobunaga had won his war.

Now that I think about it, Oda Nobunaga doesn't seems to be a Japanese by Japan's standard

Well, considering that he made quite a ruckus during his father's funeral and one of the retainers(?) got so ashamed that he killed himself. And on that note, he is a man of practicality, for example he made use of guns while other Daimyos we're all about "MUH HONOR" and look what he did with them, turning Ashigaru soldiers into Swiss Cheese

Also interesting, because Oda was an atheist.

17 This is My command to you: Love one another. 18 If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.…

John 15:17-19

>for example he made use of guns while other Daimyos we're all about "MUH HONOR"

EVERYBODY loved guns in Japan but Nobunaga was the only one massing guns and making them major element of his army.

That's both very racist and un-christian you fucking hypocrit

>he thinks Truman personally chose the targets

The absolute state...

Which only proves that he wasn't Japanese by Japan's standard.

Why do christcucks complain about the islam coming into their land while saying "WHY DIDNT THEY LET US CONVERT THEM"
I can tolerate either side but hyprocites should really just kill them selves.

But Islam has always converted by force or coercion, litterally militarily invading. In Japan, Catholic missionaries did none of that.

Ultimately, I understand the reasoning behind the persecution, though. Catholicism would have fundamentally destabilised Japanese society and was gaining a lot of followers very quickly. But still.

>But Islam has always converted by force or coercion, litterally militarily invading
not the case in africa south of the sahara, central asia and indonesia

Catholics aren't Christian

It litterally undermined the Emperor, his legitimacy coming from being a descendant of Amaterasu. While he was more a symbolic figure, not yet so much the center of the shinto faith (but still very important), that couldn’t have been good optics for catholicism.

I remember reading that in the 20th or maybe late 19th the Church autorised Catholic Japanese soldiers to take part in the various patriotic ceremonies centered around the emperor or shinto beliefs, I think the reasoning was “yeah, let’s just pretend this is just honoring the dead, quirky military traditions and respect to the monarch, not literal worship of the heavenly sovereign” to prevent frictions between the government and the church.

>Christianity would have taken hold in Japan if Oda Nobunaga had won his war.
explain

Islam arrived in East Asia/Southeast Asia through traders.

>Daimyos we're all about "MUH HONOR" and look what he did with them
Please never post here again

I’ll grant you that SEA was more of a political, trade-related move by local elites that eventually trickled down, sure, but Africans converted to avoid being taken as slaves by Berbers, Arabs or other African muslims (or after being taken as slaves). And central Asia was conquered by the Umayyad armies.

He was a bit of a westaboo who had missionaries in his entourage and generally didn’t mind Christianity.

So, basically Nioh?

Gas all kike bootlickers like this one.

basically this, They fucked up by focusing on converting local Kyushu lords and without Nobunaga that inevitably drew Christianity into the power struggle between the Shogun and the Daimyo.but to add on it not only undermined the shoguns absolute authority it threatened to undermine the very structure of Japanese society, as the shoguns at least nominally got their authority from the emperor and society presided under a feudal system based on the divine nature of the emperors. Christianity would overturn that.

That said they really only were totally BTFO in the aftermath of the Shimabara Rebellion, a peasant revolt that quickly took on Christian overtones
considering his friendliness to the Jesuits and having had to deal with the Ikko Ikki Buddhist autists I could see him converting for political reasons

Is that why he's so hated in Japan?

No, it had more to do with his disregard for traditional social order (at least by their standards) and his penchant for taking extreme measures in war.

Christian missionaries in Japan were closely tied to their home countries, namely Spain and Portugal who at the time were building empires. The Japanese were very much aware of this and saw the autonomous Christian communities they were building as an existential threat. They were probably right.

Portuguese had several bases in japan, and usually won in battle there, but it would be dificultt to them to make japan another colony, because of the numbers difference, and japanese were hostile to christian religion. Despite that they had good economic relations.

They came to realize that Catholic missionaries were the vanguard of Europe's colonial expansion, and tolerating their activities weakened Japanese sovereignty by dividing a convert's loyalty between the state and a foreign Papacy.

Do you have any sources for that second part? Not that I don't believe you,but it sounds interesting.

>"disregard everything that's been said in this thread"
>doesn't include "except this post"
>it follows that I must disregard his post
>but in disregarding his post I am actually regarding his post which asks me to disregard it
>so in order to disregard it I must regard it against its express wishes
>in regarding it I am led to disregard it as it requests me to do so

>Catholic Japan would have become a colony of Portugal
I want to witness this timeline.

>timeline where anime doesn't exist
good timeline

>They came to realize that Catholic missionaries were the vanguard of Europe's colonial expansion, and tolerating their activities weakened Japanese sovereignty by dividing a convert's loyalty between the state and a foreign Papacy.

Which is ironic, considering nearby China allowed Catholic missionaries for 300 years, and European intrusion came in the form of Protestant British Merchants.

There is a lot of portuguese influence on japan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_(japanese_given_name)

Why was this film so damn good?
I was moved to tears. Veeky Forums kino.

Definitely. You can take over Japan so easily in Shogun when you convert, but IRL you'd owe the barbarians and they'd own your trade.

Because they were competing with the Dutch at this point and couldn't really spare the resources for a war on the other side of the world over a few dead Japs

that drowning scene was horrifying, I've seen people being whirled by lathes and though "hmm" but for some reason I couldn't get that scene out of my head, something about how easy it is to extinguish another soul and that some people would go right ahead and do such a thing for some shitty reason

Nah, Spanish japan is best timeline. Just imagine the might of the Tercios subjugating the eternal samurai

no prussian japan is best timeline

Fucking goosesteppers can't even keep their islands from some chink LARPers, while the glorious Habsburg conquered a whole continent and actually defeated the samurai

it could have been much better had they kept del toro and daniel day lewis, but instead they went for those two fucks driver and garfield

i disliked that movie, it was incredible slowpaced and the protagonist just decided to submit in the end, it's an story of defeat with no bigger moral. it feels like he would have saved more face by returning to his country than living the rest of his life with a leash on him.

>and the protagonist just decided to submit in the end, it's an story of defeat with no bigger moral.
No, not really. He died with a cross in hand. If anything, the film showed that humans have that last inch where they are unconquerable by any force. It was the same with his teacher. His off-hand remark in line with christian teachings points in that direction.

And it was impossible for him to go back. He barely got to Japan. Before the capture he couldn't have escaped, and after the capture they wouldn't haveet him because he was needed to discredit the christian teachings.

Decent film that went on for god damn ever.

Maybe he keep that inch, but the rest of his life he did exactly what the villian of the movie wanted, in the way they wanted, faith be damned, literally became a puppet of the state, imagine if mandela had kept the status quo
or gandhi, or gautama. I'm sorry but it feels like the character is kicked and stays on the ground.

He does, but that's not the point of the film. The point is that force can compel men to boundaries we usually underestimate. But never fully. He broke, but never entirely.

Great movie, now go read the book, the way a lot of it was written works a lot better that way.

>"On March 17, 1865, shortly after the completion of the original cathedral, Father Petitjean saw a group of people standing in front of the cathedral. They indicated to the priest that they wanted him to open the doors. As the priest knelt at the altar, an old woman from the group approached him and said "We have the same feeling in our hearts as you do. Where is the statue of the Virgin Mary?"[4] Petitjean discovered that these people were from the nearby village of Urakami and were Kakure Kirishitans, descendants of early Japanese Christians who went into hiding after the Shimabara Rebellion in the 1630s. A white marble statue of the Virgin Mary was imported from France and erected in the church to commemorate this event. Before long, tens of thousands of underground Christians came out of hiding in the Nagasaki area. News of this reached Pope Pius IX, who declared this "the miracle of the Orient."

The blood of martyrs truly is the seed of the church. And since we're on the topic of Christianity, here's a statue of the Virgin that survived the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki.

>>muh martyrs
>>muh magic statues
lol

Christians in modern Japan are viewed like Jehova's witnesses or Mormons are viewed in the US.
Nice that you have some wack job cultists to go with your "mystical artifacts" but the reality is that Japan is thankfully free of the poison that is abrahamic religion.

>Wow, those dudes who died defending their faith, what a bunch of retards for actually standing for something, lol

Fuck off

Prussian Japan ended with the country getting nuked twice. Literally the worst timeline.

>Prussian Japan ended with the country only getting nuked twice. Literally the worst timeline.
Fixed

I also saw this testimony in the Museum of the 26th Martyrs of Japan in Nagasaki. Beautiful. However, the accounts are clear, the hidden christians were far removed from the traditional catholic teachings, that they might as well have been, in that moment, another protestant variant.

Sure, but that's to be expected after being without proper guidance for centuries, cut off from the rest of the world they had to adapt to survive.I got the chance to visit the Goto Islands, where a lot of Christians went into hiding, often in sea side caves. You just have to admire their resolve to keep the faith alive in the worst possible environment, and most were then gently guided back to the right path. It's definitely a shame that some Kakure Kikirishitan could not resolve themselves to abandon their syncretic ways, but I don't think it really takes away from the beauty of this story too much. Just shows that even the faithful can be flawed.

>No, it had more to do with his disregard for traditional social order
Which again, proves once again, that Oda Nobunaga was not Japanese

The Portuguese empire was fading away, the Spanish had other priorities (but were actually a big concern of the Japanese, with their possessions so close in the Philippines), the French were barely just getting to Siam, the English wouldn’t have fought for a few dead catholics anyway and the Dutch were more than happy to fill the gap. No one was there for the hidden Christians.

One of the triggers of the total ban and heightening of persecutions was the return of an envoy from the Date daimyo who went all the way to Rome and back: he described the might of the Europeans so enthusiastically that it scared the shit out of the daimyo and later the Tokugawa shogun. Poor envoy had done all of this for nothing. Worse, he had converted in Rome but was immediately persecuted and forced to abandon his faith. Christian artefacts found by his descendants seem to imply he and his family kept practicing their faith, though.

You mean superior japs have no need for worship of a kike on a stick.

>what are the Northern Crusades

They were also the two of the few major cities which hadn't been bombed during the war. Hiroshima had been deemed unfit for an incendiary attack due to nearby rivers. Similarly Nagasaki was difficult to locate with the AN-APQ-13 radar.

If anything, I'm guessing the large Christian populations of the cities helped spare the cities from bombing for most of the war.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Choice_of_targets

source?

Japan had already began to shift away from feudalism when Christianity began to take root. I think that if Christianity had arrived earlier, say 50 years earlier, it would have had more time to take root before the more centralized Tokugawa began to exterminate it.

Get a life.

I said "in Japan", didn't I? Other than that, of course during the Northern Crusades or the colonisation of the Americas there was plenty of conversion by force.

About the rebellion occurring only after a lot of repression? I mean, it happened 20 years after the total ban of Christianity, with the penalty being death. The cause for the rebellion was a mix of famine and the harsh treatment of Christians being particularly enforced in the region after a change of local lord.

If you meant the art, the artist is the Yamamoto Takato, but his art is pretty difficult to find online in good quality. He'd done tons of this morbid art, he seems to be pretty fascinated by Christian martyrs.

For example, here's the full artpiece on Shiro, stitched together. Really wish I had it in good quality.

This, why would anybody want to Christianize Japan?

Butthurt christard.

Already have one thanks.

I know, right? It's fucking stupid. Japanese society may not be ideal in various ways, but the lack of tedious abrahamic moralizing is a plus, not a minus.

Looks pretty neat desu.

I reckon the Japanese could make the whole gory catholic thing work.