Who was in the wrong here?

Caesar had many opportunities in his youth to join rebellious people capable of overthrowing the Republic. But he did not. It seems what he really wanted all along was to be consul and a man of extreme importance.
Reminder he rejected Mark Antony's offer of a crown.

The festering son of a whore tyrant Caesar

LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC

THUS ALWAYS TO TYRANTS

This. It’s worth noting that when it was Sulla’s turn to march in Rome, murder his political rivals, get himself declared dictator-for-life, and permanently rig the economy and state for his partisans, he was applauded as a preserver of the Republic because he was doing it all in the name of the moneyed elite.

When Julius Caesar did it for the people, who had been nearly completely shut out of the political process and had been languishing under a kleptocratic oligarchy for decades, he was demonized as a tyrant. And when the cpnspirator’s decision was put before popular judgement, Romans overwhelmingly sided with the Caesar’s over the oligarchs

Cato is an old fool and times passed him by

It's even more ridiculous when you realize that Caesar threw out clemency to the point of absurdity, and when he was in power he made very middle-of-the-road policies that didn't offend the aristocratic elite. He was much more reasonable than Sulla and yet Sulla gets to die in peace and Caesar gets butchered by the Senate.

>Reminder he rejected Mark Antony's offer of a crown.
When the people booed at that shit of course he refused.

Clemency can only be given by those more powerful than yourself. Caesar was essentially saying he was better than them - so in some ways clemency is an insult.

Populares > Optimates

Pretty sure sparing someone's life and giving them positions in the bureaucracy after fighting you in a civil war is better than putting your name on a list and having you murdered.

>YOU DIDN'T LISTEN

>YOU ONLY HAD TO LISTEN

>YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

>YOU CAN'T STOP IT

>IT'S TOO LATE

>IT'S HAPPENING

>IT'S OVER

Cicero was bipolar.
>I love the Republic, b-but I'm not sure if I want to side with these murderous senators...
>I like Caesar, b-but I'm not sure if I wanna side with a tyrant so now I'm wishing his death...
>I like Brutus, but I hate how he didn't show my importance in his writings, but I love him after he kills that guy I liked
???

both
Cato: A privilege hoarder
Caesar: A rogue noble

he was a centrist. he knew that the republic needed reforms and that a compromise between optimates and populares had to be made.
too bad they didn't listen

No he wasn't. He had great precedents from the Social Wars to base his actions on.

>Caesar gets butchered by the Senate.

SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

christ

>"The attendants were terror-struck, thinking that more soldiers were coming, and Laenas, who had actually once won a court case with Cicero’s support, pulled his head out of the litter and proceeded to cut it off. It took three blows and some sawing through because of his inexperience, and he also cut off the hand with which Cicero had composed the speeches against Anthony, portraying him as a despot, which he entitled Philippics in imitation of Demosthenes.

>“People immediately rushed to take the good news to Anthony, some on horseback, others by sea. Laenas found him seated in the forum and waved the head and hand at him from a long way away. Anthony was overjoyed and garlanded the officer, and gave him 250,000 denarii on top of the normal reward, on the grounds that he had removed the man who had been his greatest and most aggressive personal enemy.

>“Cicero’s head and hand were fastened for a long time to the rostra in the forum, where he had previously played the popular leader, and more came to see the sight than had listened to him. It is said that Anthony had the head placed before the table at his meals, until he was sated with looking at the vile object.

>“This, then, was the way in which Cicero was killed and outraged after his death—a man who is renowned to this day for his literary achievements, and was of the greatest service to his country when he held the office of a consul.” Appian, The Civil Wars, Book IV

Cicero did nothing wrong

Cato

Poor Cicero
Why was marc anthony such a vile degenerate cunt?

...

that's what happen when plebs suddenly grab the power

He didnt break laws user what do you mean :^)

You know Cato was actually younger than Caesar right

Caesar. He was a tyrant and a megalomaniac.

Cato

a conservative man whose arrogance, hatred and rage led him to destroy the very thing he loved the most: the Republic.

>Be Anthony
>Get trashed in public
>Offer your cousin a crown
>Senate freaks out and murders him, starting a series of civil wars
>Lose said wars
>An hero
What did he mean by this?

>Eloquent bitching is a preferable to actually solving the problem

...

Both and neither

If the senate weren't such greedy fucks they could have saved the Republic.

If Caesar didn't cross the Rubicon, the Republic would be maintain in the short-term.

>the first being land redistribution and dealing with wealth inequality
oh to be so young and naive

Precedent is now law.

>Poor Cicero

Fuck him. He simultaneously represented both the best and worst of what the late Republic had to offer in that his orations and political maneuverings were some of the greatest in history yet he was a rat willing to abuse his power and do whatever it took to survive. The cherry on top was his penchant for morally abrasive and decadent behavior such as his marriage to a fucking child and his following remark -- "she may not be a woman, but after tonight she will be."

>she may not be a woman, but after tonight she will be
How does he turn a girl into a woman in one night?

>SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
More like only if I disagree with the tyrant and have nothing to gain from his rule Sic semper tyrannis.

No man, least of all a roman, was honourable, the entire rise and growth of the republic was under a kleptocratic system that lied about its own origins and virtues, much of Rome's legitamacy was lost after the Third Punic War. They became no better than highly organized theives who were the original population of the city when Romulus was elected king after murdering his own twin brother.

>Caesar is murdered, although he had no hand or knowledge of the plot
"D-down with the tyrant! Good job guys!"
>Attempts to manipulate Octavian against Antony, doesn't work
"REEEEE BRUTUS SAVE ME"

History seldom mentions this but Cicero was an accomplished sorcerer after he found a Hwan holocron in the base of Mount Vesuvius. He cast a spell that rapidly aged her.

That such a powerful ability, he should of used it against his political enemies - no one would stand in his way.

>No man, least of all a roman, was honourable

none whom history bothered to write about, maybe.

You know how

>"she may not be a woman, but after tonight she will be."
B A S E D

Dude most of the history was written by and edited by authoritative romans, they could only write in certain proscribed fashions so I try not to put stock in their texts on how things actually went down.

The real question is: have you penetrated anyone yet, Veeky Forums?

>The cherry on top was his penchant for morally abrasive and decadent behavior such as his marriage to a fucking child and his following remark -- "she may not be a woman, but after tonight she will be."

{{Citation needed}}

I’d penetrate his mom and sister desu

indeed i have, on many occasions

>land redistribution and dealing with wealth inequality
does this ever work

Victrix causa deis placuit sed victa Catoni

In Rome's case, yes.

The majority of (worthwhile) Roman land was owned by wealthy patricians as Latifundia; essentially agricultural plantations with the occasional factory (operated by slaves). These Latifundia would be operated by hundreds of slaves and dominated the markets. As a landowner gained more land he was ever more able to gain more land. He had to to beat his competitors and to keep up with plummeting prices arising from him, ironically, gaining more land. When small farmers were driven off they went to the cities where they had to live on the Bread Dole. The Bread Dole was, essentially, state provided free bread. In order to pay for the grain for this the Roman government had to constantly be expanding its borders and making military conquests.

Had the land reform gone through and free Romans been given land the Republic would have certainly been better off. It would have had less chance of oligarchic demagogues arising and less people living on government handouts; both would have lead to Rome's military policy being less of a cancerous blob and probably more akin to China (focused on stability and profit extraction rather than just constant conquest).

The land reforms of that day are a bit different than capital redistribution schemes of today. For starters, a farmer is entirely self sufficient and farming was common knowledge. Owning a piece of factory equipment doesn't allow you to feed and clothe yourself, and goods are not bought and sold in an open air market where literally anyone can compete anymore, you need to move through specialized channels.

The Marian reforms were the unhappy compromise to that, the poor did get their lands and they did get to work them, creating a wealthy, stable middle class again, but they had to conquer them and carve them out of other peoples', thus making expansion and militarism a self-sustaining machine and over-stretching inevitable.

Honestly, the coups and constant civil strife in the empire were just a reflections of the deeper truth about it, the legions, the men in them and their families were the real voting block, the generals were the true representatives, and the sword was the vote. In a way the citizen-soldier model never went away.

But if your honor ad dignity are shat upon by him because of this, you are no better than Gisgo, a lowly Carthaginian grain farmer.

we are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine and the machine is bleeding to death.

Pompey was the good guys here.

the poor bastard

youtube.com/watch?v=k3buhlYVLOs

i often wonder what would have happened if Ptolemy hadn't had Pompey killed

Caesar would have given him a pardon.

Haven't watched the show, is the the rest as good as this scene?

that's for certain, he was a legitimate consul no less.
Pompeys death reflected badly on Caesar, i wonder how much it contributed to his assassination and if it could have been avoided if he had pardoned Pompey and given him some position

Yes

Fuck this makes me so angry. The conqueror of Asia who brought Rome so much fortune is just disposed of, by a literal nobody and a bunch of inbred Greeks.
Fuck Pompey Magnus deserved better.

youtu.be/7OK-pbUar2E
>when Pompey described the Battle of Pharsalus to Vorenus
Top tier kino

that's easily in my top 3 Rome scenes, but my favorite has to be "HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME"

also the newsreader was pure kino
youtube.com/watch?v=xH0kO5qcPf8

Ptolemy got what he had coming to him tho

I know people meme that scene but its genuinely emotional. I love how effective the show was at communicating Caesar's historical trauma at seeing his old friend dead.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rdw3TyZn6s4

not to mention that politically speaking, this was about the worst possible outcome
Caesar was going through great lengths to not appear to much of a tyrant, however with Pompey murdered people would be guaranteed to whisper it was Caesar who ordered it, regardless of what his actual intentions were.

Yes, it's pretty much as good as it gets, they made some minor changes to the actual events tho

Best TV/Movie depiction of the roman period so far. Nothing else even comes close.
There are some obvious changes for dramatic purposes but that doesn't really hurt too much.

TRVE ROMAN BREAD

>be Cicero
>finally get a meeting between the populares and optimates
>do you very very best to find a compromise, create a perfect deal that everyone agrees to, everything is goin well, Antony stands up to shake your hand, and then suddenly you hear the low grumble like the subtle rattle of the earth before the march of men
>Cato raises himself from his seat, adjusts his ballsack, fakes a smile and pushes himself in front of Cicero just before the handshake meets
>Cato leans into Antony and with a low grin he says:
>I changed my mind. Caesar gets 0 (ZERO) legions accept or we will attack
>Cicero turns blue, realizing full well that the man beside him just doomed the republic to civil war, but he can’t say anything, he can’t side with Caesar, he has no choice. He must agree, he must support Cato in his jealous, vengeful fury to the detriment of his nation because hur I need Cato he controls the conservative faction can’t go against Cato hurrrr
Fuck Cato that retard.

Any essential reading on the history of Rome, or these specific events?

Adrian Goldsworthy’s Caesar is a good place to start.

all of goldsworthy is great. His Antony and Cleopatra is fantastic as well

>you will never have Kevin McKidd's voice

>Cato did not immediately die of the wound; but struggling, fell off the bed, and throwing down a little mathematical table that stood by, made such a noise that the servants, hearing it, cried out. And immediately his son and all his friends came into the chamber, where, seeing him lie weltering in his own blood, great part of his bowels out of his body, but himself still alive and able to look at them, they all stood in horror. The physician went to him, and would have put in his bowels, which were not pierced, and sewed up the wound; but Cato, recovering himself, and understanding the intention, thrust away the physician, plucked out his own bowels, and tearing open the wound, immediately expired.

why not just having someone cut your throat or stab you in the heart?

It is more honorable to suffer than to try to make it quick. After fleeing battle twice he had to redeem himself in the eyes of the gods, to take an easy way out would tarnish his name forever, but to go for the stomach and make himself truly suffer makes him somewhat of a martyr.

damn too bad the wold wasn't ready for a series of this caliber

youtube.com/watch?v=uMSLDpyABLQ

this scene too

>They have powerful Gods on their side and i will not kill any man with friends of that sort.

At least the show had an actual ending. It's literally the worst when a series ends in a cliffhanger

t. Cicero

fucking Cato

Reminder Cato is said "Catto" like Gelatto and not "Kayto"

Both.

Caesar for being power-hungry and flagrantly breaking Roman law and tradition.

Cato for refusing any compromise and backing Caesar into a corner, all the while turning an eye when Pompey did the same shit he was charging Caesar of.

/ourguy/

Cicero is based as fuck. Read Plutarch's biography of him and enjoy laughing your ass off reading the exchanges he had with some people.

>Fuck him. He simultaneously represented both the best and worst of what the late Republic had to offer in that his orations and political maneuverings were some of the greatest in history yet he was a rat willing to abuse his power and do whatever it took to survive. The cherry on top was his penchant for morally abrasive and decadent behavior such as his marriage to a fucking child and his following remark -- "she may not be a woman, but after tonight she will be."

Antonyfags go, and stay go

Where do I start with learning roman history guys? I'm really interested

in the video games corner

Sorry your IQ isn't high enough to understand what he meant by this

Depends where you wanna start. There's several Veeky Forums book guides on the Romans.
Pic related is the basic starter guide.

can't say the man didn't have guts