He destroyed Islam!

Firstly, the original monotheistic religion was Zoroastrianism. Secondly, even by Muslim standard that is not true. The first monotheistic religion in Islam is Judiasim.
He is just saying when Arabs invaded Jerusalem they never mentioned they were Muslim.

>Mecca was supposedly the biggest city back then, and not a single Arab mention it in their writing at that time.
ive never heard anyone claim this, it was only important because it was a center of pilgrimage for the pre islamic arab pagans and, after muhammad, the hajj

There is no mention of it in any other text that was found at that time. Watch the documentary.

>Firstly, the original monotheistic religion was Zoroastrianism.
Oh god not this again. You only get that by taking a ridiculously uncritical standard to Zoroastrian claims that they had the exact same religion back to at least the 5th century B.C. as they did in circa 1200 AD over an entirely oral tradition.

Like I said again, the Quran doesn't have much to do with Mecca's location or even existence, which is why it practically goes unmentioned. The arguments of Crone, Donner, et al have interesting implications on Islamic historiography and modern holy geography., but they don't really affect the spiritual foundation of Islam, the Quran and it's revelation to a holy man of Arabia.

Mecca is just mentioned once in the Quran, and it describes it as very fertile and green, but Mecca is in the middle of the desert, and nothing grows there. Also, no pre-Islamic Arabic text mention the existence of such place.

Guys, I found another autistic Arab!
No mention of such city was found during the supposed time that Mohammad existed. Also dont you find weird that the oldest "Mohammad Rasuluallah" was hundreds of years after Muwya. Muwya has never mentioned the prophet.

After failing multiple times in a row to answer basic questions, you're in no position to call other people autistic or Arab (especially since I can't read Arabic).

There being no mention of Mecca, the specific city in modern Saudi Arabia, has little to do with the spirituality of the historic Islamic faith. In fact, if everything Holland paraphrases were 100% accurate, then that means Islam became a major spiritual movement in spite of the absence of a Mecca, in spite of a religious first generation of Caliphs, and so on.

I'm not even sure you've even read Holland's book at this point, and are merely spreading an old YouTube meme among Persian and Arab ex-Muslims and non-Muslims where Holland is misconstrued as this hammer crushing Islam, when he and the actual historians of Islam he's quoting for his book are far from anything like the turban-tipper you seem to be.

So what if modern Muslims are interpreting their books and histories wrong? So do most faiths that old, yet that does nothing to cripple the faiths of their followers

If somehow it did yours, maybe you were always spiritually weak, and latched onto the first excuse you could find to keep feeling arrogant like the usual teen militant atheists you find online.

Firstly, You are acting exactly like Christians when they are told there was no historical evidence to the existence of Jesus Christ. I fucken grew up in a Muslim country. I know for you Islam is a spiritual movement but to the average Muslim its historical fact. That is why the Quran can never change, and Mohammad's life is tried to be recreated. The reason for all these is that Islam is a factual political movement. Khomeini said it best. Islam is politics.

And guess what, decades of Biblical criticism hasn't destroyed Christianity either. Your life and your person are both inconsequential, and if you want to talk Islamic political identity, there's another board for that. I read this and other books like it for fun, but you're reading it for reasons other than a love and interest in history or theology, so fucking normie, REEEEE

And when you find time to stop eating dicks, OP, I recommend Fred Donner's "Mohammad and the Believers" and Patricia Crone's "God's Rule: Government and Islam". Now get off my board.

A Muslim calling me normie on Veeky Forums kek!
Islam is different from Christianity, and Christianity is dying out. Sunnie literally killing Shias for adding things to Islamic history. Yes, Islam is completely spiritual. KEK! Islam is dying out in Iran. Iranian government server 30 percent of the population don't identify as any religion. It's probably higher as the government like to manipulate stats. Most of the young people don't give two flying fucks about Islam.

I am talking about the historical evidence for Islam, and you are talking about the spirituality of Islam. Yet, I have to leave Veeky Forums. Jesus, the Autism is strong with this one.

You should read his book, Shadow of the Sword
Most entertaining history of the Caliphates I've read. While not academic, per se, it's very informative and formatted in an easy to remember narrative

He doesn't mention what Muslims were before they Invaded Persia and The Levant. Are there any historical bases to Alis existence.

Must've been rough man, did you convert to any other faith or did you just drop religion all together? I've never spoken to an ex-muslim by the way, you guys seem so far and between where I live

Actually, most of the Iranian that migrated out of Iran are ex-Muslims. When I was in school there were many people that were quite outspoken about leaving Islam. Most people don't give a shit. In Iran, most young people don't give a shit about Islam. I would say around 50 percent of the population is either cultural Muslim or outright given up on Islam.

Im from some shithole in Central California, we've been getting a boatload of the religious type Muslims out of the blue and have yet to meet and ex-Muslim. Unfortunately they've been getting on our nerves and even started protesting in the community colleges, for what I have no idea. I've also never met an Iranian before, all I know is that they had a revolution in the 70s, fought a brutal war with Iraq and are Boogeyman #1 for Neo-Cons

My family is quite conservative, but even they dont care much about me leaving Islam. At the start when i told my mother she just talked to me, and tried to convince me to come back. They don't care anymore. Iranian and Turks are much more chill compare to Arabs.

The Shah of Iran tried to westernize Iran by force. That made the average Iranian uncomfortable and even more religious. The there was a couple of intelectuals that created an idealogy called Islamic Marxism. Then Khomeini used these two groups to come to power. The average Iranian didn't know stoning and chopping off thieves hand were part of Islam Then when the ayatollahs started doing these things they discovered how toxic Islam is. A large percentage of the men died or become seriously injured in the Iran Iraq. As a result of this, the ayatollahs started subsidizing babies. That created a baby boom. Half of Irans population is below 30. Most of these young people hate Islam.

Most Iranians that are in LA are rich monarchist. or Jews They also really hate Islam.

From what I understand, a lot of Iranians are a different ethnic group than the Arabs you'll find in Iraq or the rest of the middle east right?

The two major ethnic groups are Azeri Turks, and Persians. Most of the elites in Iran have Azeri ancestry. The Azeris conquered Iran, and forcefully converted to Shia Islam. Most of the Iranian royal families were Azeri Turks. Safavi, Afshar, Qajar, and the last shah of Iran was half Azeri. Modern Iran is basically dominated by Shia persians and Shia Azeris.

>I grew up as a Shia Muslim
Apostate, you deserve a beheading, Inshallah

I completely agree with you Shia Islam is a different religion. I mean the Idea of 12 holy saints, and the last saint is an immortal man walking around the earth until the end of the world. Then he will come and create a Shia caliphate. It has no basis in Islam. But I am happy this difference exists because otherwise, we would be like you animals.

Interesting, I've only ever dealt with Iraqi and Kuwaiti Arabs (if theres any difference) and they all kind of sucked and thats me putting it nicely and now there's a bunch of them here. Why can't we take the non-religious ones in like OP?

If the Muslims didn't know/believe in Muhammad when they invaded Jerusalem then why, then what did they believe? Judaism? Nestorian Christianity?

Well Iraq is abit different. In Iraq the sunnies are not as religious as the Shias. Saddam Hussein's government was mostly made up of Sunni bathist. Most of the ISIS generals were Sadams generals. They are only there because they dont want to be caputred by the Shias or the Kurds. Kuwait is alot better. Kuwait is alos 40 percent shia. They are mostly made up of rich arabs that dont really follow islam, and drink on their time off.

Nobody knows. The people in Jerusalem recorded they in the ruins of the Jewish temple. That is why they built al quds monument on top of the ruins of the old Jewish temple. They were either some sort of Christian or Jewish.

* recorded they prayed on top of the ruins of the Jewish temple.

the "WE JUST DON'T KNOW" thing started becoming annoying after a little while, I know that there are some historians that question the historicity of Jesus (and that he was a guy called Josephus or something), because there is not historical evidence at the time he was living. This is a stupid research method, that ignores how powerful and potent oral traditions are. (btw I am not a Muslim)

Concerning Muhammad, he certainly must have existed. The real question is when and by whom the Quran was written, after the Muhammad transcribed the essential suras. There is load of complete nonsense written in later suras, and not mention the hadith.

So in essence the basic story of the Quran must have been true, Muhammad a former merchant ( from a priest class pagan family) started claiming he was a prophet. Muhammad knew about Christianity and was probably a former Nestorian. He leads a roving band of tribal dessert warriors against the Pagans of Mecca and Medina and conquers them.

Early on there was a lot of confusion in the composition of the Quran as to where the Christians and Jews stood in Islam. Some verses mention Jesus as holy, and born of a virgin by the power of God, but also claim that Christians are idolaters, the same for Jews. This is resolved by the "people of the book verse", and this is were syncretism with the so called Arab Ismailite tradition (in all likelihood a Nabatean belief) probably comes from. The entire part about Muhammad's genealogy and the rulers claiming direct descent from Muhammad was probably made up as Arabs had very big extended families.

Holy shit OP totally destroyed,also too bad you didn't get those quints user.

Who gives a shit about Iran let them become atheist hedonists and the arabs will replace them in a few decades due to failing birth rates.

>Then I found out sodomizing little boys is actually not against Islam
Pretty sure sodomy is haram user

you got a point but the way you write makes me think youre just some larping amerifat.

No, it's not. It was common in the Islamic world.

How did he destroy me? Most Muslim believe Islam story to be historical fact! Islam is more like a political movement than a spiritual one.

No, I am rushing, and English is not my first language.

Because its common doesn't mean that it isn't haram.
Pre-marital sex is forbidden for christians too but none of them give a fuck.
Homosexuality of any kind is forbidden even if many arabs were degenerates.

Show me a surra or a hadith that says its haram. In Islam everything that is not specifically told to be haram is halal. You can sodomize kid until they turn 15. That's the age you officially turn into a man in Islam. Also, no historically significant Islamic scholars have said it was haram.

(1/2)

(2/2)

Just watched the doc and this other lecture and I think the lecture provides a better sense of his arguments and theories.
youtu.be/eDQh2nk8ih4

Also thinking of watching this later
youtu.be/-Uyj6Oip4eE

Infidel, you're faith is weak and you lack moral guidance. Be gone!

Just another day in the United Caliphate

Doesn't matter that it was common, the only thing that matters is what is written in the Quran and the Surat about sodom forbids it.

>In Islam everything that is not specifically told to be haram is halal.
No user, you have to interpret it. Sodom was destroyed because of it's degeneracy, therefore the degenerate practices of sodom are haram therefore sodomy is haram.

>I grew up as a Shia Muslim
Another Iranian diasporafag in the West. I always laugh when you pathetic cunts claim bullshit like how 99.99 % Iranians are atheist, even though they are ruled by an Islamic government and voted for Rouhani lol. Seeing you fags get crushed like rats during the last protests by Khamenei and IRGC was hilarious.

Although I agree with some of the views of the Revisionist school, I often find Tom Holland’s claims to be too far reaching and his writings to be too polemical.

>sodomizing little boys is actually not against Islam

I don’t know whether most Shias consider sodomy to be acceptable, but it is regarded as sinful by all four major Sunni schools of fiqh. Pederasty is illegal in virtually all Muslim-majority countries and is tolerated only in certain areas of Afghanistan (although it was punishable by death under Taliban).

I’m pretty sure that virtually no Muslim scholars believe that science is haram, not even the most extreme ones. Also, Sunnis are allowed to lie only in order to save themselves either from death or severe bodily harm, but some heterodox Muslim sects like the Kharijites even believe that lying is prohibited in absolutely all circumstances.

The reason Rohani got more votes means they hate the extreme ayatollahs. Rohani is a so-called reformer. In Iran, if you are a government employee if you don't vote you will get kicked out of your Job. Also, this is true of students at uni. The Iranian goverment gives the people two choices. Usually one is a extreme ayatollah. or a moderate mullah. When I say extreme meaning they usually had some sort of connection to mass killing of 1988. The last candidate Ebrahim Raisi was one of the 4 judges of the 1988 massacre where they executed 30 thousand people in 3 months. The people of Iran know these facts and they go to vote so crazy people don't get to the office.

In the west polygamy is degenerate. I mean drinking piss is also degenerate, but some strong hadith back them up. Also, Sodomizing kids so common in Islamic history you don't need to go far. Don't you think one Islamic scholar would have said stop this if it was actually wrong in Islam? Give evidence that it says its haram!

Yeah, yeah. Rouhani the turban wearing Islamist cleric is a ''moderate'' and all the people who voted for him are atheists. Do you delusional imbeciles actually believe the bullshit that comes out of your mouths? People voted Rouhani because of the nuclear arms deal and economic sanctions. They couldn't careless about the Islamic ideology of the government. Most of the Iranians who despise the Islamic government have already ran away like faggot OP to the West and they still hide there lobbying and calling for the invasion of Iran to the Shah.

No in Sunni Islam it's more common. That is why in the border with Afghanistan and Pakistan the Sunni Pashtun practice it.

jihadwatch.org/2015/06/it-is-permissible-for-the-mujahid-to-enjoy-young-boys-in-the-absence-of-women

>Tom Holland
>historian
he doesn't have a phd in islamic history, who doesn't have a phd at all. He is just a fucking man with a undergrad degree who writes pop history and fiction.

What a fucking shame that there are quite solid scholars, mostly from germany, albeit they properly examine islam and call the bullshit surrounding the religion.

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi never had a twitter account and ISIS has executed multiple people for engaging in pederasty. It is true that some people in Afghanistan practice it, but it is still considered haram in mainstream Sunni Islam and Taliban made pederasty a capital crime.

You are one fucking retarded shill. I am Iranian myself. I grew up in Iran. In Iran political system you cant get far without being a mullah. The Iranian people vote for the bad or the way more terrible option. Stop spreading fucken lies. Ahmadi Nejad was a nobody. He only got elected because he was not a mullah.

Does the founder of Microsoft have PhD in computer science? You don't need to have PhD in history to write an honest historical book.

Most of the people who have phd in Islamic history are neo- Marxist brainwashed idiots. They cant write an honest book about Islam because they are pussies.

No Taliban have not. Where is the proof? Taliban fighters constantly sodomize little boys.

“No”

If it is haram then show one proof. There must be one if you are right.

Yes*

I know a guy who studied Islam in Uni. He is a far left idiot. He thinks Islam is the best religion. But believes it not true. Shut the fuck up you shill.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

>During the Afghan Civil War (1996–2001), bacha bazi officially carried the death penalty under Taliban law.[11][12]

>Under the Taliban, bacha bazi was declared homosexual in nature, and therefore banned. The Taliban's opposition to bacha bazi was that they considered it incompatible with Sharia Law, and outlawed the practice after coming to power in 1996.[11] As with other homosexual activities, the charge carried the death penalty

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

>I grew up in Iran.
I knew i was right.

Thanks, your post convinced me that universities are controlled by evil cultural Marxist who don’t allow people to say the truth about Islam

He's literally the worst. He doesn't even have a history degree.

His books make barely any use of credible sources and are entirely conjecture, he's the worst sort of pop historian.

I'm glad his name has been totally eclipsed by the spiderman actor.

>You don't need to have PhD in history to write an honest historical book.
You at least need a history degree, he has some shitty English degree.

Proof that a major scholar in Islam said its haram. Not what the Taliban did. Taliban fighters constantly fuck boys. Also, this practice was common in all sunni countries, but not a single Islamic scholar said anything.

It just says sodomy between grown men is haram. One major historical islamic scholar. Not fucking wikipedia where anyone can put up anything from any dickhead imam.

No, you dont! The some of the greatest historians did not study history at uni. Also, prove why his wrong. Instead of saying his wrong because he dosent have a history degree. Thats the most retarded argument.

It was common only in Turkey and Afghanistan and it is currently illegal in all Muslim countries. I’m not aware of any scholars of Islam which supported pederasty.

He tried to write historical book about Islam using objective outside resources. Of course his not going to use biased Islami historians.
The only you say his recourses are not credible is that he didn't use Islamic historians.

It was made illegal in modern times. Again, give evidence of a major Islamic scholar who said it was wrong. Someone like Ghazli or Bukhari.

>I found out middle ages people were doing middle ages shit
I doubt the parents who raised you sodomized you when you were a little boy user

You are a fucking idiot.

Islam is meant to be eternal. Why would it matter if it was the middle ages or now?

What is his main argument?

>Most historians don't talk about Islam because they are pussies.
No, most historians don´t talk about Islam cause they have other specialities, but there are tons of Historians whose studies are related to islamic religion and discuse it.

His argument is that because the Quran was handed down through memorization, and not written it is probably made up. Most of it at very least. Also, other resources did not record the events that the Quran says took place were probably not true. Like he believes that Mecca was built long after the prophet Mohammad. There are no written record that such place existed during the time of the Mohammad. Also, in the Quran Mecca is described as fertile and green, but it's in the middle of the desert and nothing grew there.

>Islam is meant to be eternal
the five pillars are, the rest can be cherry-picked
Quran 4: 48 posits that Allah forgives any sin except disbelief, I'm only saying that this user is too fixated on the political/moral aspects of something that is meant to be spiritual such as religion, most muslims today would qualify as kuffar if Islam was "eternal"

That is the most retarded thing. The Quran is meant to be taken literally, and the hadiths followed.

>hadiths
OP was a Shia Muslim, hadiths are a Sunni thing

>His argument is that because the Quran was handed down through memorization
There's no strong evidence of this.
>and not written it is probably made up
Of course it's made up, by Muhammad.
> Also, other resources did not record the events that the Quran says took place were probably not true.
It only mentions a few battles in Arabia in passing, we do know that the elephant thing it mentions happened, but with the limited archaeology in Saudi Arabia how can he outright deny those events occurred?
>Like he believes that Mecca was built long after the prophet Mohammad.
While the evidence for Mecca isn't bulletproof, there's much more evidence to suggest it did exist prior, than to say it didn't. The fact that there is suggestible evidence to its existence says a lot.
>There are no written record that such place existed during the time of the Mohammad
There are though.
>Also, in the Quran Mecca is described as fertile and green, but it's in the middle of the desert and nothing grew there.
The climate was better in the past, but even today it is not the barren desert you imagine, there is a lot of farming in Arabia.

His arguments are very weak and indicate that he has a personal belief he wants to prove rather than trying to seek out the true history.

No they are not. Shias also follow hadiths. How ill-informed can you fucken be?

They follow a smaller amount of different ones.

Not in the "literally" way you pressed it to be, Shia Muslims can be very critical of hadiths
and no one "literally" follows the Quran, this is coming from an actual muslim living in a muslim country

Yes, Arabia has a lot of fertile parts, but Mecca is not one. Mecca is only mentioned once in the Quran. Also, the oldest recorded mention of Mecca, by Muslims themselves, was in 741 AD. That is more then one hundred years after Mohammad's death. We have not a single mention of this place before that time.

They follow most of them. The only difference between Shia and Sunni Islam is the succession of Ali, and the 12 imams.

It was Yawhism, fire-worship is polytheist