Without western help would ISIS have won?

I'm a big fan of combat footage and some contrast I've noticed between ISIS and the Iraqi army is how much more professional ISIS fighters fight.

I'm talking through both Isis propaganda videos and amateur videos. Here's a good example.

mobile.almasdarnews.com/article/graphic-20-min-isis-propaganda-video-shows-battles-kurdish-forces-across-raqqa/

I believe had it not been for western bombings, Isis would have taken over most of Iraq. This would have been accomplished through a speedy surrounding of Baghdad.

I'm Assyrian so my parents are from Iraq and I asked my dad about it to which he said all these Isis generals and leaders are former Saddam generals, which is probably why their soldiers seem better trained.

25 year rule

First of all-not /his
Secondly, Iran help was a much more important factor in the war against ISIS

if the west hadn't stuck their dick into the bee nest of middle eastern dicatatorships, ISIS wouldn't be a thing.

I disagree. Hundreds of 100% accurate bombs would wipe out most armies these days.

It blows my mind how a state like isis is still a thing in 2017 despite the bombings and the entire world going against them

Isis is what, 12 years old now? All those elites from saddam probably died already with the constant bombing and drone strikes. I have to admit at the start they were pretty good though

Who knows. Iraq might have gone the same way as Egypt, without western involvement.

>western help

lmao

it was literally the SAA and russians that beat ISIS, you fucking cuck,

How could they possible lose a battle like this?

ISIS evaporated when Saudi turned on them.

>I'm Assyrian so my parents are from Iraq
This isn't really on topic, but what do you think about Polish people and Poland?

A lot of people from my village were in Iraq during the 1980s and 1990s as engineers. Most people here opposed the war and how our military was basically forced to go over and fight with you guys.

>I've noticed between ISIS and the Iraqi army is how much more professional ISIS fighters fight.
one was fighting a US led coalition and the other was fighting unarmed villagers and a third rate military that previous got utterly BTFO by the US. ISIS are idiots and failures

...

You can't compare Iraq to a place like Poland or Germany or Russia. Enormous differences between Shias, Sunnis, Kurds, and Assyrians in Iraq. If given the opportunity, the Kurds and Assyrians would tell the Iraq government to fuck off and declare total independence today.

Iraq actually makes very little sense being a country and most likely won't stay intact I'm 50 - 100 years.


To answer your question more, at the time (honestly even kind of now) anyone outside of sadaams government had basically zero influence or power.

They wouldn't fight. Consistently, training Iraqi security forces has proven to be a sham. They'll all abandon their equipment, post, and training as soon as they're hit even slightly. They're faking it, they can't stand up by themselves at all.

Exactly. That's why the Isis blitzkrieg was so effective. Had there been zero western support I believe they would have taken most of Iraq.

>basically forced to go over and fight with you guys.
thank you poland, you truly are our greatest ally

First of all, lol@ the people claiming that it was the Syrians and Russians who beat ISIS. The Syrians were literally in danger of their territories getting split in half in 2015, when ISIS was one small town away from reaching the lebanese border, this is 1 year after USAF starting bombing, so no, the SAA didnt beat shit. If any force can be credited with doing most of the work against ISIS its the Iraqi army, who were helped with thousands upon thousands of bombs dropped by USAF.

To answer your question, yes, ISIS wouldve won if nobody intervened. However, if USAF didnt intervene Im pretty sure Iran wouldve declared all out war on ISIS, especially if Baghdad came under danger of falling. (Which it did for a short period of time, but I mean ISIS entering Baghdad and actually threatening to capture it)

The big mistake ISIS made was attacking the Kurds. Tbh, if they didnt attack the Kurds they possibly couldve captured vast areas in Syria, especially around Hama and Homs, threatening both provincial capitals. At this point either someone intervenes or the Syrian government collapses in a matter of months.

It's planned mediocrity, they first gave Shias control of the government and military but do a half assed job at overseeing it or continuing to give support which was probably what the US had in mind or would have been beyond their capabilities anyway.
ISIS had been reported to have received training in Jordan, a country with US military bases. NATO was not able to act in Syria the way they did in Libya due to China and Russia vetoing the no-fly zone in time so they proceeded to prop up their NGO's and rebel groups.
ISIS and other rebel groups have probably received top of the line training of either direct or indirect guidance of US/NATO/Israel.

And groups like these will keep popping up even if you put down an insurgency since it's in their holy text that their tribe rose from obscurity to conquer the planet.

Syria has taken far more casualties than Iraq, the death rate in Iraq looks roughly the same as during the occupation and the sectarian violence and possibly even less.

>without the Wests help

Brah we were indirectly and directly funding and arming ISIS throughout Obama's second term, I was there when we sent a shitload of gear, weapons and vehicles to the Iraqis, only to have it all, I mean all of it, lost to ISIS outside of Mosul.

An entire Iraqi division just up and left, didn't take even take the small arms with them. A few weeks later we were doing it all over again

t.Welfare queen/t*rk shill
The US doesn't bomb anything but strawmen and innocent civilians, in 2015 the Syrian army was facing defeat when the Russians stepped in turning the tide leading us into today. Meanwhile they sent a few G.I.s to pose with Kurds and shoot a few videos of them taking out a few technicals with TOW missiles from a distance.

The Russians on the other hand have probably sent dozens upon dozens of trucks attempting to smuggle contraband oil across the Turkish border to hell while the US scolds them for putting civilian lives in danger.

more embarassing since this was the same iraqi golden division that the US paid millions of tax dollar supplying and training them, as soon as isis stepped foot in the city they dropped their weapon for isis to capture and run lmao

russia and the SAA are fighting in iraq?

Well the humvees aren't even useful. Who knows if ISIS and insurgent forces hadn't been receiving insider advice on how to destroy them.
ISIS and other rebel groups just appear to have access to superior training like how the CIA may have instructed the Contras and other rebels during the Cold War which allows them to be an effective force with smaller numbers against a disorganized and incohesive state.

Well it's kind of sketchy to completely hand trust over to fickle Iraqi Shias as well.

It would be sketchy to trust any Iraqis really. At least in supporting just the Syrian Ba'athists, Iran, and Hezbollah they have some consistency and retain a greater union.

It's funny how they're frequently mocked as being just le stupid goat fuckers when they've exhibited quite resilient feats perhaps even more so than what agents acting with greater financial backing and government support do. Perhaps it's all to keep the public sentiment and persuasion the way it is.

to be fair, you can be a goatfucker and still be an effective millitant.

No goats here.

No, without western support ISIS would be dead long ago.

They, like all other modern Muslim groups, have misinterpreted what the Quran was supposed to be.

and which part did they misinterpret?

This, it's impossible to tell whether ISIS where fed supplies that where being sent to iraqi forces in all but name. War is a money maker if you can make it seem like you're doing your best to end it while actually elongating it through stupidity(veiled or not)

They kill others, murder them. Simply because they believe in a different aspect of their religion.

The Quran says not to divide yourself into sects, ISIS does this, and is proud of their sect.

The Quran says to take the mean, never be too strict or too lax. They are far too authoritarian and strict.

The Quran says Christians will be their best friends. They have repeatedly said they make war with Western civilization and who they support because of religion, which (see above) the Quran says not to do.

The Quran makes the argument that you shouldn't attack unless you are attacked first. Only defensive stances are propounded through the Quran.

It's why so many people on Veeky Forums are into Quranism. You actually think people on Veeky Forums are Sunni or Shi'ites??? LOL. The Muslims on Veeky Forums are either Quranists, or Neo-Platonists, and I can guarantee you they do not support war.

If you count ISIS as including their AQ in Iraq period then yes, it's older than 12 years. But that's kind of pushing it since the way one thinks of ISIS is 2014 onwards.

ISIS definitely would have reached Baghdad it's a question of if they could have taken it but I'd imagine a Shia exodus that could have precipitated a fall of Baghdad.

>who were helped with thousands upon thousands of bombs dropped by USAF
and USN

I think the real question you should be asking is if they really shout ALLAH ACKBAR fucking unceasingly like in all the combat videos, or if that's only for the cameras

With our current technology it's just not possible to make a functioning nation state in the harsh Arab deserts. It never was stable in the modern era for reasons including but certainly not limited to western oil imperialism. And that won't change anytime soon...

ISIS's own magazine considered the Iraqi and Syrian armies to be a joke, while considering the YPG to be redoubtable foes and the American as basically invincible demons.

A quote from their English magazine:
>Aynul-Islam was the main focus of the Islamic State because it was determined the PKK would be the main ally of the crusaders in this stage of their crusade due to the supposed battle experience of PKK fighters and the purely secularist ideology of their party, one that considers the Jewish state to be an ally of any future Kurdish state.
Also, in a section of the magazine where they break down their enemies, the YPG comes in for the only real backhanded praise, commenting that despite all their "supposed battle experience" in Turkey, ISIS is still pushing them back (in 2014). It's not a ringing endorsement by the enemy by any means, but compared to the mockery heaped on all their other foes, it's quite mild. The SAA are derided as a bunch of faithless cowards who have never won a battle, and the Iraqi Peshmerga a pack of poorly paid mercenaries resting on past laurels who ISIS was able to easily rout.

They also complained about US airstrikes on them and accused the Americans of stealthily supporting Assad, fighting "on their behalf":
>The Iraqi regime and its Iranian founder have been one of the biggest allies of the Asad regime in Syria. They have sent fighters to the Abul-Fadl al-'Abbas battalion. The Asad air force has stopped all airstrikes against the Islamic State in a number of Sham! wilayat, probably because it is cheaper for them to bene- fit from the US airstrikes on their behalf, especial- ly since the Asad regime is collapsing financially and isn't very good at hitting targets accurate- ly.

without western help ISIS would not exist in first place
same goes with Al-Qaeda

they would do well in syria and iraq and then promptly get btfo when they inevitably expands toward real state like iran and turkey

ISIS just had superior motivation, they sincerely believe they will win and don't really mind if they have to die if it means victory, compare that to the Iraqi Army which cohesion sucks dick

Without western help, ISIS wouldn't have been a thing. Al-Qaeda wouldn't have been a thing. Rampant extremism and rampant terrorism wouldn't have been a thing.

Those existed because western countries fed them money/cocaine/weed/weapons.

Obviously they themselves dont see their way of islam as a sect.