Does the Illuminati still exist?

>93
>Did some of their ritual gestures and codes get recycled into other initiatory societies that sprang up? Yes of course.
It's easy to forget that the OTO was developed by Germans, and that at least one of those Germans was actively involved with attempting to reactivate the Bavarian Illuminati.

This is probably why the introductory degree in the OTO is called Minerval. Minerval was also the introductory degree in Bavarian Perfectibilism, not to mention Minerva was a part of the Perfectibilist jewels and regalia. This would also explain why particular grips are in the OTO as well, as it seemed that Reuss wanted a home for some of these wayward and languishing gestures.

>Who was or wasn't allowed
Pic related...it's from the book I referenced, "Secret School of Wisdom".

>the archives
FYI if anyone's interested in their historicity, and is local to the archives, the accession numbers are....and pardon the Geheimes Staatsarchiv PreuBischer Kulturbesitz are in Berlin...as follows in their Freemasonry collection:
Manuscript numbers:

FM 1.1.4 3589
FM 5.2 D34 1828
FM 5.1.4 3590
FM 5.1.4 3591
FM 5.2 G39 107.3
FM 5.1.4 3592
FM 5.1.4 3602, 3603, 3604, 3601
FM 5.1.4 3596
FM 5.2 G39 107.18
FM 5.1.4 3598
FM 5.2 G39 107.20
FM 5.2 G39 107.22
FM 5.2 G 39 107.26&27
FM 5.2 G 39 107.25
FM 5.2 G39 117.37
FM 5.1.4 3593
FM 5.1.4 3597
FM 5.2 G39 111.63
FM 5.2 B113 803

>Yes, they worship an owl
Well I mean I just posted about how it was Christian only but yes Minerva is an important symbol in their rites.

>enlightenment happens
>one german enlightenment teacher notices many people still believe in superstitious nonsense
>sets out to educate or "illuminate" the people by teaching them the ways of logic and reason, so they no longer believe in monsters and spirits controlling the world
>forms a group of like minded teachers and writers
>his group gets BTFO by the king of bavaria as all secret groups as seen as subversive of the crown (who likes their plebs nice and dumb and fearful)
>fast forward to today
>the Illuminati is the number one conspiracy theory that every dumb superstitious irrational pleb world wide believes controls everything

...

>the elites of western civilization literally worship a giant owl in a forest
>the illuminati is dead and gone

Pick one.

>notices many people still believe in superstitious nonsense
>>sets out to educate or "illuminate" the people by teaching them the ways of logic and reason, so they no longer believe in monsters and spirits controlling the world
While it is true that Weishaupt had a hardon for decoupling the university system and the Church's stranglehold on knowledge, but I mean Weishaupt advocated a Doectic view of Christology. He wasn't EXACTLY a fedoralord over here.

And while yes the paper points out that the word "Doecetism" doesn't get used the degree paper has like two pages of biblical citations for the position that Christ was 100% spirit and 0% human.

First you're going to have to point out how that particular portion of the Cremation of Care skit relates to the Bavarian Perfectibilist rituals since they're now publicly available in English and German.

And you still have yet to post evidence the Perfectibilists "worshiped an owl" in the first place.

M - A - S - O - N

The Owl of Minerva. The owl is even in the little graphics you're posting.

"Oh hey this symbol seems significant to our goals of expanding access to education." does not equal "Oh hey man let's go be Pagans and literally worship a totem owl."

By that logic you worship the image of anything you have around the house that's symbolic of, well, anything.

You think you're slick comparing the importance of household items to a 40 foot owl circled by the world's most powerful men as they perform mysterious rituals? Honestly who do you think this would fool?

So I'm gonna ask again, nice and slow:

>First you're going to have to point out how that particular portion of the Cremation of Care skit relates to the Bavarian Perfectibilist rituals since they're now publicly available in English and German.

Show me anything, at literally ALL, other than the image of an owl (the form of use isn't even the same, statue v. personal jewel) that is similar to the three pages of the Cremation of Care extract in the three hundred plus pages of Perfectibilist rites, doctrines, and protocols.

Here, I'll even do you a solid if you don't read German and don't wanna fork over cash to Lewis Masonic for a translation and if you drop me a throwaway email I'll send you a copy of "Secret School".

Who says they can't add rituals after several hundred years? It's a giant owl, it's an important symbol to that group and they revere it.

>Who says they can't add rituals after several hundred years?
Ok then you're going to have to substantiate a survival of Perfectibilism after the Bavarian suppression.

>It's a giant owl, it's an important symbol
The "giant owl" is only important to the Grove cats. For Bavarian Perfectibilists it was a little owl, small enough to be on a necklace, that wasn't gathered 'round with torches for orations.

>they revere it
In radically different ways.

Are you one of those dudes who thinks ANY use of an owl in symbolism is directly tied to the Illuminati?

Are Outback Steakhouse moloch worshipers for appreciating bulls? Are Angry Owl records a front for child sacrifice?

>Geheimes Staatsarchiv PreuBischer Kulturbesitz
If anyone wants to verify anything I'm saying, here's the archive's contact page:
gsta.spk-berlin.de/anschrift,_oeffnungszeiten,_anreise_496.html
>Email
>Location
>Hours
>Phone
>Etc.

I miss your posts on Veeky Forums Ape.

bingo

Thanks mate I try.

Weishaupt was a frustrated Jesuit, mate.

Bump for potentially interesting discussion on the Illuminati.

I can repost my synopses of the Lanz and Taxil hoaxes.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustin_Barruel

>Retellings of the death of Lanz, an Illuminati courier, who was struck by lightning in Abschrift [Apologie, p. 229], illustrate the mythology that has grown up around the history of the Illuminati. Lack of research and a disdain for historical accuracy has led conspiracy theorists to confuse Johann Jakob Lanz, a non-Illuminati secular priest in Erding, and friend of Weishaupt, with Franz Georg Lang, a court advisor in Eichstätt who was active in the Illuminati under the name Tamerlan.

>Barruel mistakenly translated "Weltpriester", or secular priest, as apostate priest and subsequent writers such as Webster and Miller have repeated this error. Eckert renamed Weishaupt’s friend as Lanze and had him struck by lightning while carrying dispatches in Silesia. Miller cited Eckert but renamed Lanz as Jacob Lang and placed the lightning strike in Ratisbon. The importance of the papers found on Lanz has also been over-stressed, considering that his death on 10 July 1785 came some time after the first two edicts for suppression — issued on 22 June 1784 and 2 March 1785 — and some time before the mid-October 1786 raids on Zwack and Bassus, and the final edict on 16 August 1787. This is a minor detail in the history but it illustrates the lack of accuracy often displayed by detractors of the Illuminati.

>7. "Among his adepts was one LANZ, an apostate priest. Weishaupt designed him as the person to carry his mysteries and conspiracies into Selesia. His mission was already fixed, and Weishaupt was giving him his last instructions, when a thunder-bolt from Heaven struck the apostate dead, and that by the side of Weishaupt. The Brethren, in their first fright, had not recourse to their ordinary means for diverting the papers of the deceased adept from the inspection of the magistrate. [footnote] See the Apology of the Illuminees, P. 62." Barruel. p. 244.

>Cf.: "When my late friend Lanz was struck by lightning at my side in the year 1785 in Regensburg, what an opportunity this could have provided me to play the penitent and remorseful hypocrite, and thus gain the confidence of my persecutors." trans. from : "Als im Jahre 1785 in Regensburg mein seeliger Freund Lanz an meiner Seite vom Blitz ersclagen wurde, welche Gelegenheit hätte ich gehabt, den reumütigen und bußfertigen Heuchler zu machen und auf diese Art das Zutrauen meiner Verfolger zu erwerben?" Kurze Rechtfertigung meiner Absichten. Frankfurt and Leipzig, 1787. Quoted in Die Illuminaten, Quellen und Text zur Aufklärungsideologie des Illuminatenordens (1776-1785) Herausgegeben von Jan Rachold. Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1984. p. 363. Also see pp. 127, 132, 140, 150-160, 168 for Franz Georg Lang.

The Prussian Rosicrucians, under Johann Christoph von Wöllner, began a sustained attack on the Illuminati. Wöllner had a specially engineered room in which he convinced potential patrons of the effectiveness of Rosicrucian "magic", and his order had acquired effective control of the Three Globes and its attached lodges. Through this mouthpiece, the Illuminati were accused of Atheism and revolutionary tendencies. In April 1783 Frederick the Great informed Charles of Hesse that the Berlin lodges had documents belonging to the Minervals or Illuminati which contained appalling material, and asked if he had heard of them. All Berlin masons were now warned against the order, which was now accused of Socinianism, and of using the liberal writings of Voltaire and others, alongside the tolerance of Freemasonry, to undermine all religion.

>93
In November 1783 the Three Globes described the Illuminati as a masonic sect which sought to undermine Christianity and turn Freemasonry into a political system. Their final anathema, in November 1784, refused to recognise any Illuminati as Freemasons.

In Austria, the Illuminati were blamed for anti-religious pamphlets that had recently appeared. The Rosicrucians spied on Joseph von Sonnenfels and other suspected Illuminati, and their campaign of denunciation within Freemasonry completely shut down Illuminati recruitment in Tyrol.

The Bavarian Illuminati, whose existence was already known to the Rosicrucians from an informant, were further betrayed by the reckless actions of Ferdinand Maria Baader, an Areopagite who now joined the Rosicrucians. Shortly after his admission it was made known to his superiors that he was one of the Illuminati, and he was informed that he could not be a member of both organisations. His letter of resignation stated that the Rosicrucians did not possess secret knowledge, and ignored the truly Illuminated, specifically identifying Lodge Theodore as an Illuminati Lodge.

Robison freely admitted that he had scanty knowledge of German and had derived all his information from other writers. (Postscript of Proofs, p. 2.)

Unfortunately neither he nor Barruel were concerned with providing references for their sources. When they do quote from the papers and correspondence of the Order as published by the Bavarian government or the published works of Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Knigge, they also fail to provide context or citations.

Robison freely admitted that he had scanty knowledge of German and had derived all his information from other writers. (Postscript of Proofs, p. 2.)

Unfortunately neither he nor Barruel were concerned with providing references for their sources. When they do quote from the papers and correspondence of the Order as published by the Bavarian government or the published works of Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Knigge, they also fail to provide context or citations.

Neither Robison nor Barruel deny that the professed goal of the Order was to teach people to be happy by making them good — to do this by enlightening the mind and freeing it from the dominion of superstition and prejudice. But they refused to accept this at face value. Where Weishaupt and Knigge promoted a freedom from church domination over philosophy and science, Robison and Barruel saw a call for the destruction of the church. Where Weishaupt and Knigge wanted a release from the excesses of state oppression, Robison and Barruel saw the destruction of the state. Where Weishaupt and Knigge wanted to educate women and treat them as intellectual equals, Robison and Barruel saw the destruction of the natural and proper order of society.

Barruel and Robison fail to provide any conclusive link between the Bavarian Illuminati and French Freemasonry, much less find a cause of the Revolution in Paris lodges. They display a great ignorance of the actual and documented workings of Freemasonry at the time, and, in support of their arguments, have made many demonstrably false statements.

Although both Barruel's and Robison's claims have been discredited, many, more contemporary, writers who rely on their books are still accepted as authorities.

In particular, in his book, Woman and child in Universal Freemasonry, de la Rive wrote three paragraphs that he laid to Albert Pike, which he sourced in a footnote to Diana Vaughn, Léo Taxil's fictitious creation. This writing is part of the texts that Clarin de la Rive recanted, and said that they should not be considered to have ever existed. The text in mention:

>That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?

>Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods; darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive....

No actual edition of Morals and Dogma contains this. Or the WWIII bullshit either.

Notice the quotes attributed to Carr, who in turn is supposedly citing Pike verbatim. Although there is no citation from Haupt, e.g. book and page number, it was pretty easy to track down from where it had originated. “The First World War must…,” “The Second World War must…,” and “The Third World War must…,” is a paraphrased excerpt from William Guy Carr’s book, Pawns in the Game, pp. xv-xvi (a reprint of the 1958 edition). Only Carr doesn’t use quotes to signal a direct quote from the letter, as Haupt had deemed necessary to insert all by himself. The former does indeed claim that three world wars was prophesied in the letter, but he doesn’t actually go so far as to put quotations around it so as to definitively attribute those specific words as occurring verbatim in said letter.

Carr maintains a curious middle ground. Observe the following:

Between 1859, and 1871, he worked out the details of a military blue-print, for three world wars, and three major revolutions which he considered would further the conspiracy to its final stage during the twentieth century.

[…] Pike’s plan was as simple as it has proved effective. He required that Communism, Naziism, Political Zionism, and other International movements be organized and used to foment the three global wars and three major revolutions. The first world war was to be fought so as to enable the Illuminati to overthrow the powers of the Tzars in Russia and turn that country into the stronghold of Atheistic-Communism. The differences stirred up by agentur of the Illuminati between the British and German Empires were to be used to foment this war. After the war ended, Communism was to be built up and used to destroy other governments and weaken religions.

World War Two, was to be fomented by using the differences between Fascists and Political Zionists. This war was to be fought so that Naziism would be destroyed and the power of Political Zionism increased so that the sovereign state of Israel could be established in Palestine. During world war two International Communism was to be built up until it equalled in strength that of united Christendom. At this point it was to be contained and kept in check until required for the final social cataclysm. Can any informed person deny Roosevelt and Churchill did not put this policy into effect?

Here we have a direct quote from the elusive letter, and again, with no precise citation – only the assertion that it is held in the British Museum.

Carr, Rodriguez and “The Cause of World Unrest”

Apparently, Carr was called out on this, for in his last book published posthumously in 1959, he finally reveals his source:

Pike explained what is intended to happen in a letter he wrote to his director (Mazzini) of the W.R.M. August 15, 1871. This letter is quoted elsewhere. It is catalogued in the Library of the British Museum, London, England [9] and has been quoted from and referred to by dozens of authorities and students of the W.R.M., including Cardinal Rodriguez of Chile. (See page 118 of The Mysteries of Freemasonry Unveiled, 1925. English translation, 1957.)

[9] The Keeper of manuscripts recently informed the author that this letter is ***NOT*** catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems strange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez’s knowledge should have said it WAS in 1925.

– William Guy Carr, Satan: Prince of this World (pdf scan by Haupt), p. 22

Cardinal Rodriguez provided adequate citation for further investigation. Some of the new information gleaned includes the fact, that 1) Carr quoted directly from Rodriguez’ meagre one-paragraph excerpt; 2) the latter mentioned nothing about a prediction of three world wars; and that 3) Carr was confused about exactly what was “catalogued” in the British Museum. Furthermore, it appears that Cardinal Rodriguez was alluding to Le Diable au XIXème Siècle — “its publication” — as being catalogued at the Museum, not the letter itself (as our next source confirms).

We’ll look at the actual “letter” below. For now, however, it will suffice to comment on two things: 1) the confusion over a catalogue in the British Museum has been solved; and 2) the “Nihilists and Atheists” quotes are nearly identical translations from Carr to Rodriguez to the “anonymous” author in The Cause. (There are a few minor discrepancies, but this is surely due to Rodriguez’s book being translated from Spanish to English.):

>“The Cause” (1920) Rodriguez
>“shall unchain the revolutionary Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm, which will demonstrate clearly to the nations, in all its horror, the effect of absolute unbelief, mother of savagery and of the most bloody disorder. Then, everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the mad minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate these destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned of Christianity, whose deist soul will up to that moment be without compass, thirsting for an ideal, but not knowing where to bestow their worship, will receive the True Light, by the universal manifestation of the pure Luciferian doctrine, at last made public, a manifestation which will arise from the general movement of reaction following the destruction of Atheism and Christianity, both at the same time vanquished and exterminated.”

>Rodriguez (1957 English edition)
>“shall unchain the revolutionary Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm, which will demonstrate clearly to the nations, in all its horror, the effect of absolute unbelief, mother of savagery and of the most bloody disorder.

>Then, everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the mad minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate these destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned of Christianity, whose deist soul will up to that moment be without compass, thirsting for an ideal, but not knowing where to bestow their worship, will receive the True Light, by the universal manifestation of the pure Luciferian doctrine, at last made public, a manifestation which will arise from the general movement of reaction following the destruction of Atheism and Christianity, both at the same time vanquished and exterminated.”

>Carr (1958 edition)
>“shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and Atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

Exactly what William Guy Carr was trying to pull, I’ll never know. If you’ve bared it until the end, perhaps you’re disappointed to have found nothing about a prediction of three world wars, Communism, Nazism and Zionist Illuminati – or anything of the sort.

A search through the entire book, utilizing relevant word combinations, turns up nothing either. Instead, what it truly represents is the scurrilous fantasies, and militant anti-Catholicism of its author: the impostor Leo Taxil aka Dr. Bataille, who profited handsomely while having a million laughs at the expense of both Christians and Masons; who confessed that his entire corpus of anti-Masonic works – spanning twelve years and representing thousands of pages (including the translated excerpt above) – were a complete and utter fraud; a colossal yet ridiculously farcical hoax.

It is enough having shown that the so-called Pike/Mazzini letter came from the Taxil hoax and to have provided a full translation of it.

Taxil benefited from the atmosphere in France at that time, which was indeed rife with anti-clericalism, occultism, and outright Satanism. The poets and authors of Romanticism had also looked upon Satan and Lucifer as a hero, and became more outspoken as anti-clericalism became the norm.

Taxil, for his part, had admitted in typical form:

“The public made me what I am; the arch-liar of the period,” confessed Taxil, “for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes I laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humor. But my readers wouldn’t have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity.

>tl;dr
Pike had zero clue about Nazis or WWIII, and the assertion that he does comes from the hoaxing of Taxil. The most common quote on the topic doesn't come from Pike, but from an antisemetic 1920 screed. The quote is neither found in Morals and Dogma, or even his letters, as the British Museum assertion is just plain wrong.

I don’t derive any satisfaction from a debunking. I really don’t. Discovering the truth is a reward in itself.

I think a huge problem is that mainly anglos nerd out about Illuminati when most sources are in German.

Even then from my cursory understanding it's not like there's a giant body of scholarship on these cats. Mostly a lot of conspiracy theorizing and a handful of scholarly treatments, then don't mistake me for an expert on the German academic climate either.

The situation has improved, slightly, recently, but I pine for the day when we (collectively, I mean) can have an actual discussion about the Perfectibilists that doesn't devolve into "muh joos" or "muh vague hand gestures" or "muh reptoids".

good shit Ape

Thanks again, I really can't recommend "Secret School of Wisdom" enough, and not even for conspiracy buffs but historians of secret societies, Freemasons themselves, or anyone actually interested in the topic beyond complaining about Jews.

skull and bones

And what exactly does this outfit have to do with the Illuminism of Weishaupt?

>antisemetic 1920 screed
I'm onto you.

I read that as Hatshepsut for a second. Can you recommend any of his works?

Weishaupt? They're almost entirely in German.

I think there's an edition of Diogenes' Lamp that was published by....oh neat it's on archive.org:

ia801907.us.archive.org/33/items/WeishauptADiogenesLampOrAnExaminationOfOurPresentDayMoralityAndEnlightenmentOCR/Weishaupt, A - Diogenes' Lamp or an Examination of Our Present-Day Morality and Enlightenment- OCR.pdf

have you ever read Hypnerotomachia Poliphili?

Yes I have I know a few Thelemites with an interest in that text.