What can Veeky Forums tell me about the Berbers?

Interesting and/or detailed stuff about their history, culture, etc.

Other urls found in this thread:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/
mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/
archive.org/stream/originsofislamic02albauoft#page/354/mode/2up
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_Fez_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1465_Moroccan_revolt
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

The arab elite of the maghreb are slowly marginalizing the berbers and are attempting to deny their contributions to islam. I see a turkish style ethnic cleansing in their future, which is a shame because barely anyone knows about them in the west

My eighth grade french teacher was berber and she had an enormous and succulent ass

They lived in North Africa and resisted islam at first then got crushed.

They then revolted after converting to Islam because they didn't want to get Arabized

Islamic empire that wen't full jihad and killed off all the Christians that were left while leaving the jews alive

France took them over and encourage Arabization to pacify them

40 years after independence they pretend to be arabs while the ones that still claim they are berber live in the most violent places and ties to al queda

Honestly as a moroccan I can't tell berber and arabs apart
Also funnily enough it takes my brain more time to recognize amazigh than traditional arabic(which I don't speak) because it sounds so similar to moroccan arabic

WE WUZ VANDALS & SHIT

>France took them over and encourage Arabization to pacify them
It's actually the complete opposite, France wanted the Berber identity to take over the Arabs in the Maghreb and used them (the Christian Berbers) as launching pads for propaganda.

>They lived in North Africa and resisted islam at first then got crushed.
Berbers of central Maghrib indeed resisted the muslims, but those from western and eastern Maghrib showed little resistance and were quick to supply troops to the Umayyad califate.

>They then revolted after converting to Islam because they didn't want to get Arabized
They revolted because Arabs considered all non-Arab muslims (mawali) second-class citizens. According to al-Tabari, Arabs used to steal the herds of the Berbers and to abduct their women. Also, Berber soldiers were used as cannon fodder, were given a lesser share of loot and, in Spain, were driven off the fertile southern lands, only to be sent to colder, poorer, mountainous areas. Furthermore, Berber villagers of North Africa were put under severe fiscal pressure by Arab governors.

The berber identity was already there. Anything else is propaganda your mullah told you to be a good boy. And your islamic laws were reintroduced to the Maghreb by a gay Frenchman who was in charge of the place when it was under french rule

>The berber identity was already there
I don't think you understand my post

>Anything else is propaganda your mullah told you to be a good boy
High level discourse and arguments

There are a number of groups who are considered Berber it's like the term Turkic.

She has an 11m statue in her honor, many paintings, and even comics dedicated to her.
Can't say the same about you, kiddo.

>Fucks your archers
>Runs from your pikes
What now, faggot?

Here's a simplified version of their history
>Caspians mix with EHG
>Berbers come out
>First Europeans who interacted with them were the greeks
>They became huge berberboos after Cyrenaica, incorporated their gods
>Eastern berbers became Numidians, Western berbers became Mauri (later moors)
>Oh shit, here comes Carthage
>Actually they're pretty nice
>Fuck'em, berbers like Romans better (moors served mainly as Equites/light cav because the barb horse was mm so good)
>Can't say the same about byzantines (Volubilis held for a very long time)
>Oh shit, here comes the Arabs
>Some berber tribes put up a fight, exhaust a good number of Arabic troops via guerrilla warefare
>Dihya (priestess) led a long and bloody war she ultimately loses
>Romano-Moorish Christian kingdoms fall, North Africa is converted (by the sword most of the time)
>The western berbers just give in and decide to help the Arabs in their Crusade
>Time to conquer Iberia--Wait most of the army is berbers
>Aight we moorz now
>Tariq Ibn Zyad kicks the visigoth filthy germanic arse: "pshht, nothing personel , kaffir"
>Oh fuck, Christians are angry now, they kicked us out
>WTF, the turks took Algiers and Tunis
>Portugal attempts a crusade on Morocco
>///BATTLE OF THE 3 KINGS///
>*kills your king, start an inheritance crisis for you*
>"Nothing personel, alberto."
>huge piracy campaign on the mediterranean and all the way to Iceland
>Actually dare to take Europeans as sex slaves
>Queen of Tettuan (a pirate captain, she controlled the eastern mediterrean) took European male slaves from the spanish coast and allegedly fucked them
>Europeans get feisty again
>OKOK we'll stop
>WTF FRANCE invaded us
>Arabisation fully takes over
>Berbers and their culture slowly starts to die

Here's a simplified version of their religious history:
They had their own distinct form of religion at first (very similiar to the egyptians which is normal because berbers are very close to them genetically)
Their religion was about worshipping your ancestors, basically you make a shrine for you dead mom and she looks after you when she dies (becomes a wondering spirit)
They also had a very weird religion that is close to Indo-Europeans but close, they worshipped figures lik the oceans and the mountains ( thus Atlas and Poseidon, both came from NA through Libya to Greece), each head of the Atlas range is a daughter to Atlas and his son was born man (degraded or something) and he built a city state named after him in the range, he then went on to learn the arcane arts, Mauretanians (modern Atlas range and the riff of Morocco) believed that the demi-titan son of Atlas was the one who discovered shit like Geography, Alchemy, Astrology and what-not, North Africans didn't have gods, they worshipped titans (that's why Greeks were like hip about their new gods)
A portion of North Africans then started worshipping ba'al hammon and Tanit and other semitic gods, but after Rome took over they changed their names to Juno and Saturn, I mean they are the same anyway.
Christianity then looked like it was going to dominate the region, North African architecture (medieval one) was very Christian, because they picked much more the visigoths and the Romans.
Then Islam came and ... You know, "peacefully" converted the region.

>Time to conquer Iberia--Wait most of the army is berbers
And the generals?

>Queen of Tettuan (a pirate captain, she controlled the eastern mediterrean) took European male slaves from the spanish coast and allegedly fucked them
That sounds like old school propaganda desu

Berbers were attracted by islamic heresies, especially Khawarij sects such as ibadism and sufrism. The reason of this appeal is that most of Maghrib was conquered by the Umayyads, a Sunni Arab dynasty that discriminated against non-Arab muslims (who were treated only slightly better than dhimmis). This explains why most of Berbers became Khawarij, while at the same time a lot of Persians became followers of Shia islam. Later, some Berber tribes, such as the Kutama, also converted to Shia islam.

>simple explanation of their tribal system:
North African tribes were not matriarchies, they had very simple celtic-esque settlements, where everyone had a designated role, each tribe had many more than one settlements and people traveled from one settlement to another, there we have a fissure that separates tribes that only accepted other people within the tribe to marry their women, and tribes that did not.
The tribes that did were farmers, they lived in the green side of North Africa, they generally had lighter skins and some showed European-esque features like blue eyes and blonde hair (remember the neolithic European influx to the eastern Caspian populations), the southern tribes are people who decided to trade instead of farm, these people married their daughters to negro and/or other berber chieftains to ensure safe passage among other things, these nomads are now known as Sahrawis simply meaning dwellers of the saharas, these people are generally speaking mullattos because they intermixed with sub-saharan Africans for centuries, they are used as scapegoats by afrocentrists in the US.
More successful tribes lived in the far North, these tribes lived similiar lifestyles to the vikings, they raided Greek and Ibero-Celtic settlements for loot, they fished and intercepted trade-ships, basically proto-barbary pirates.

>And the generals?
Well Tariq ibn Ziyad and Malik ibn Tarif were Berbers, but it's an exception. And after Tariq conquered half of the Wisigothic kingdom, he was publicly humiliated by his former master, an Arab called Musa ibn Nusayr.

>And the generals?
Honestly we don't know, Ibn Khaldun was probably either Iberian or North African, most contemporary scholars reject their claims to Arabic descent, same with many generals including Tariq Ibn Ziyad, Averroes too was very likely Iberian.
>Propaganda
I dunno user, she looks like the kind of woman who can fugg 5 men at once, but then again she later became Queen of the kingdom of Fes, so you're probably right.

I should have clarified that the Khawarij put the emphasis on the refusal of Arab supremacy and on the equality among the believers, regardless of their ethnic background. Also, they refused the dynastic system that had been adopted by the Umayyads.

>Writing system:
North Africans have one of the last surviving afro-asiatic languages out there, along with the Egyptian and Ethiopian one, they write in runes very similiar to Punic ones but different, we know they didn't copy the language from them because we have pre-carthage tablets that show these writing being the same as they are today, the language still survives today and is used in road signs, documents, front signs of public estalblishments and what-not, much like the situation of german and french in switzerland.
Few example:
ⴰ:A ; ⴱ:B, ⵛ:C, ⵞ:D, ⴷ:D, ⴹ:E, ⵙ:S ⵅ: (like the spanish j) ; ⵣ:Z ; ⵥ:emphatic Z

>Clothing:
there is this thing called google, OP

>How their culture affected Western civilization:
(Because I know none is interested about how they made a bunch of negros their bitch and then thought them written language)
This is mainly because they were a province for an awefully long time and because they produced good auxilia (horse breeding, javelin cav and spear cav, there is the one that fought tha Dacians in the trajan column).
First things first, lions: you'll see them all over European heradlry, specially brittish and scandinavian ones, the first to start hunting them down selling them in Europe were Libians, the last ones to do that were the Moors until they became extinct in the wild in the 60s, how to tell the Barbary lion from the normal African one? blonde mane around the head, brown/black mane going all the way to the crotch.
The fauna in North Africa in general is considered European in zoology, Barbary bear, stag and elephant are European (and not eastern) in origin.
Britain's first few governers were from North Africa and some of the BS they brought (folktales remained there and some survived all the way to be included in Arthurian legends the son of Atlas in Cambriae Analysis, B text)
The list is long and boring, of course their influence is minimal compared to other groups like the Persians or the Turks.

What's the oldest script? I doubt it predates Carthage and the Phoenicians in North Africa. Wikipedia says 3rd century BC, which is way after.

>Notable berber figures:
>There is a whole Pharaph dynasty of Libyan origin, they spoke ancient berber and had their own special berber names they called each other in the courtroom. Shoshenq the first (or ⵛⵉⵛⵓⵏⵇ being his berber name) is a good example.
>Juba II (ⵢⵓⴱⴰ, Yuba): client king of Numidia
>Bacchus I (took part of the Jugurthine war in which Sulla was involved)
>Macrinus (Ironically the previous emperor Caracalla was also part North African)
>Quintus Lollius Urbicus governor of Brittania
>Lusius Quietus, he killed a /LOT/ of jews.
>Saint Monica of Hippo, Alypius and Augustine of Hippo, the latter being of course the most important
>Pope Victor I,Pope Miltiades and Pope Gelasius the first
>Ibn Battutta
>Tariq Ibn Zyad
I believe the recent ones are more well known.
The best of North African Architecture is post-islamic things like Torre del Oro, some fucks believed they had distinct styles (look up Volubilis) but I don't buy it.
And that's it OP, I had this stuff stored in one of my notebooks, thought I'd hook you up.

there is one thing I've noticed while looking at pictures of berbers/amazhigs, they have aryan, jewish, moorish and even gypsy blood, what's the deal with these mofos

>Moorish, moors are berbers not the other way around.
The berbers are a very large cluster
>what's the deal with these mofos?
because they are a very recent mix (compared to other europeans) that hasn't settled yet, they are a mix of European hunter gatherers and levant farmers (not the punic ones).
Here's another weird thing I found, they have a pretty strong mithochondrial link with the Saami people of Scandinavia.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/
pic related are people living deep in the mountains near the borders of Algeria and Morocco, they only speak berber, farm, and are """"muslims"""" even though most of them don't pray and have never read a Quran.

They seem Balkanic in a lot ways, there is pale and brown skin here just like them, blonde hair is rare but does exist and even some facial features seem similar.

>EHG
EHG?

>by the sword most of the time
wrong

The Afro-asiatic language research scene is fucked up, so I have no idea, most of the languages we have today are recent, but what they are derived from is very unclear, plus, North Africans spread their language to the south through trade, and now Touaregs claims they created the language...And Anglos are adding a lot of BS to the table like how it was derived from Egyptian, and you know Anglos and how much they love Egypt.

Also since this is a relevant thread, I'd lke to refute some retarded Afrocentric and Nordic™ arguments:
>Moors were black
Nay, Mauri is a western berber that inhabitted Mauretania (modern day Morocco and Algeria) A Numidian was a berber from Libya, and Tunisia. Later the romans used it (mozabite) to refer to anyone coming from North Africa, Europeans in the early medieval era used it to refer to North Africans AND Arabs invading Spain, and later they called the slaves freed after converting moors too, and then came the anglo, and called every negro a moor.
>Touaregs are the original berbers
We know for a fact that berber culture started with farming, the nomadic life came much later, plus Touaregs are, after genetic comfirmation, considering a mix of negroid Africans and caucasian berbers.
>North Africans are now mainly Arabs
No, most modern North Africans are arabised berbers, read the 2nd part of this:
mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/
>Berbers were Aryan t.Rosenberg
No, they just have EHG in'em no Indo-Aryan influence, disproving that the traits common in Scandinavia came with the Aryans, they were probably brown haired angry Caucasians with chariots.

European hunter-gatherer, Western hunter-gatherer if you wanna be specific.
>Wrong
I've read in a bunch of books that the conversion was very aggressive in Libya, Algeria and Tunisia, and less so in Morocco.
Especially to the pagans and the jews, they had 3 choices between exile, death and conversion, but I have no concrete source, so I can't really say, for what I know, conversion in Islam was commonly semi-peaceful.

So your claim about their script is completely bullshit, got it.

Well, lemme rephrase then, the language itself goes back to the iron age, the script, well it's complicated.

>ywn be a young Spanish buck kidnapped by a sexy moor pirate captain babe and kept as her boy toy.

Let's see they were conquered by the Romans, the Vandals, and finally the Arabs. That's a lot of rape babies.

>Romans
shit ton of soldiers got land in North Africa after service, so, yes.
>Vandals
Yes, they're germanic, rape is almost a certainty.
>Arabs
Nope, Arabs didn't rape much actually, their genetic signature is very weak whenever researshers took samples from Tunisa, Libya or Algeria, in fact, the Moroccan royal family is berber, but of course they LARP as Arabs, Arabs simple didn't have the numbers necessary to leave a lasting mark, the vandals however, well pic related.

I've personally look for sources on any trace of forced conversion of berbers and found none. If it it happen there is no historical evidence for it.

Good refutation except for one detail : numidian refered too berbers from numidia, numidia being in what is now north of Algeria.

>muh rape :DDD
Berber's mDNA is much more varied than there y-DNA, meaning they cucked way more than they were cucked.

The king is only half berber so they can larp as whatever they want

>The king is only half berber
How do you know that? Most of the past kings married berber women, and we're not even sure they are Arabs, all of the family refuse to take DNA tests, and I think you know why.

The Arab conquest was quite violent, but most Berbers converted to islam without being forced to do so. Still, there's a controversy among historians regarding the Lawata, an Eastern Berber tribe. Some think the men they provided with the Arabs were slaves, as part of a tribute. Others think they were mujahideen, who joined the muslim army willingly.

North African "arabs" and Berbers are literally the same people. The main difference is simply the language, their culture, traditions and beliefs are extremely similar

>I see a turkish style ethnic cleansing in their future
Not really, Berber culture is more threatened by globalization and influence from the middle east than attempts at arabization that kept failed for over a millenium

The berbers were some of the ardent opponent of French colonialism, they fought tooth and nails for their independence

How are Berbers Caspian? And WHG? If anything they're the original group that stayed while the rest went on to become WHG, ex: La Brana men.

>Still, there's a controversy among historians regarding the Lawata, an Eastern Berber tribe. Some think the men they provided with the Arabs were slaves, as part of a tribute. Others think they were mujahideen, who joined the muslim army willingly.

The Origins of the Islamic State v1 pages 353-354 is pretty telling: archive.org/stream/originsofislamic02albauoft#page/354/mode/2up

They were forced to sell their children and women to pay the jizya tax, because they didn't have anything else to offer to the Arabs.

Alright but the kings wife is not berber so their children have more arab blood in them now than before... Its just a game of balance

No, most of them were actually, including the current one, as a king, would you marry an Arab bedouin chick or a redhead qt360 berber?

He actually is right the French colonial administration did encourage berberism because they thought it would undermine Islam.

So if the berbers inhabited and ruled Iberia, what sort of imprint did they leave? Is that why they're all really dark, except in the north,where they didn't really get to?

She honestly would pass as European in any country.

Berbers are white Maghrebis. They are the white Caucasoid people that lived in Northern Africa before the Arabic expansion. Some of them can be very beautiful while some others can be ugly due to some degree of inbreeding.

I can see that flag of your picture from my balcony, someone put a huge one outside his home past week and I found out what it was a few days ago. What a coincidence.

And to all the people wondering about their ethnic/racial origins... they're Atlantean! This is now an alt-history thread!

...

lmao this post

the amount of roman and germanic blood berbers have is almost as tiny as their arab blood

you berber trash are so pathetic

Iberia holds the MOST ANCIENT continental European ancestry. Yes there is some Berber influence, not remarkable though. There is also some sub-Saharan which is the highest anywhere in Europe, but basically negligible and entered through the Berbers. Berbers are also pretty much the group that didn't move to Europe to become the European HG.

Spanish are pretty much the Iberian natives (NF+WHG+some Yamnaya)+Greeks+Phoenicians+Celts+Romans+Germanics+Berbers.

I meant to say plus some influence of varying degrees by Greeks, Phoenicians, etc...

Also this is from what I've read and remember, I might be wrong.

Spanish? not Iberians in general?

Also I think that "most ancient" shit only applies to Basques

Look at this kid..if he doesn't look arab than no one else does

>Berbers are white Maghrebis. They are the white Caucasoid people that lived in Northern Africa before the Arabic expansion. Some of them can be very beautiful while some others can be ugly due to some degree of inbreeding.
Most Berbers are brown-skinned caucasoids, only a minority of them are quite European-looking. The lightest phenotypes are found among the Kabyles and the Riffians. Others, such as the Zenaga of Mauritania, have negroid features, being the descendant of Berbers raiders/slavers and Black women taken as slaves.

Now the interesting thing is that ancient Egyptians represented Libyans (Eastern/Central Berbers) like light-skinned people, and the Greeks also described them as tall and white men.

I was merely talking from my personal experience from living in Spain. I happened to see many berber with very light skin, the tone indistinguishable from many white Europeans, but with some degree of Arab admixture that can be seen in the facial structure. The paler ones I described tend to be rare of course, and is seen mostly among the women, most berbers tend to be some shade of brown.

The original ones also happen to look a lot like the natives of the Canary islands. They're described in historical accounts as tall, pale and blonde.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

Black descendants of slaves are not Berbers, any more than American blacks are Anglos. Berbers are swarthy, but this is no different than many Greeks, Italians, Arabs, and Spaniards, who they share a race with.

Nah, Poseidon is an old Greek god. When the amcestors of the Greeks were still a steppe-dwelling people he was a chthonic deity of the steppe, hence his association with horses and earthquakes. When the Greeks moved into Greece he was appropriated into a sea deity since the sea was viewed analogously to the steppe. Poseidon's Mycenaean names, of which there are a billion, all can be decomposed into the stems poti-da, roughly meaning "lord/husband of earth", "Da" being an alternate name for the earth goddess mostly associated with Doric tribes.

Huh, if you're right, than Herodotus is a fucking liar.
"These I think received their naming from the Pelasgians, except Poseidon; but about this god the Hellenes learnt from the Libyans, for no people except the Libyans have had the name of Poseidon from the first and have paid honour to this god always."
t.Herodotus Book2: Euterpe
Disgusting, both father and son.
Yes, this is fairly possible, ancient description point that they were lighter than their eastern neighbors, but they certainly are not now, it's easier to categorize North Africans with others easterners like Egyptians but also give them the benefit of the exoticism of the Orient.

But if Ancient Libyans were white or at least light skinned, why are today's Libyans look like they just escaped the coal mines?

Berbers, after being massively enslaved by Arabs for a while, became those who provided the muslim world with black slaves from Western Africa. They may have mixed with their slaves to an extent, but I still don't think Berber were mostly light-skinned people during the Antiquity.

Usually a little cheaper than salons, but more skilled. So win-win.

The old man looks very 56% if you ask me.

unironically correct. vandals bleached the berbers

you understand that history is a series of vicissitudes? have you ever thought that jews might have thrown off muslim conformity when a more peaceful regime came along, or that jews who left came back or were replaced by new exiles from spain?

>Berbers, after being massively enslaved by Arabs for a while
Didn't happen, arabs took slaves at the occasion of a few conflict before berbers were muslims, as they always did and as every people did before them, but berbers were not "massively enslaved by arabs".

Romans talking about "germans" took the time to describe how they had light skin, fair hair and grey eyes.
When they describe berbers tho, they said nothing of their physical apparence, which lead to belive that for them they just looked like vanilla normal people

Wrong, see

Yes they were. According to Mohamed Talbi, a well-known Tunisian historian, it's more than four hundred thousand Berbers that were enslaved by Arab conquerors during the muslim conquest of North Africa, that means in less than a century. He considers Arabs saw the region as "the elite land of slavery". Regarding medieval sources, both Ibn Abd al-Hakam and Ibn Kathir praise Musa ibn Nusayr, the Arab govenor who finished the conquest of North Africa, for sending a huge amount of slaves (both from Spain and Maghrib) to the Middle East.

Also,al-Mansur, the second Abbassid caliph (754-775), wanted Abd ar-Rahman ibn Habib, the Arab ruler of Ifriqiya, to send him Berber slaves as part of the annual tribute he was supposed to paid. When he was told Berbers were now muslims and therefore could not be enslaved anymore, al-Mansur entered in a great rage and threatened Abd ar-Rahman. It means in the mind of the Arabs, the Maghreb was still a slaves breeding ground.

>four hundred thousand Berbers
does your secondary source have any primary sources?

ok, now I don't want to be dismissive because it's interresting and maybe I'm wrong.

No problem, everyone's having a polite and civilized chat down here.

Well, Talbi's book entitled "L'émirat aghlabide" has been recognized as a reference book by the French-speaking historian community.

Jews experienced persecution in North Africa and there were even several pogroms.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_Fez_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1465_Moroccan_revolt

At times Jews were given curfews, made to wear certain clothing, and subjected to forced conversions.

>At times Jews were given curfews, made to wear certain clothing, and subjected to forced conversions.
Yes, notably under the Almohad califate, which has already been mentionned.

Will try to put my hand on it. If you have it right now can you tell me if Talbi is giving his source, and if so who is it?
Regardless of their reputation historians are rarely 100% faithful to their sources, so as much as I can I try to go for primary and not secondary sources. They are rarely 100% accurate too but that's the best we've got.

On a period of 1500 years those kind of things can not not happen.

The book is quite hard to find in french, regarding other languages, I have no idea.

>If you have it right now can you tell me if Talbi is giving his source, and if so who is it
I don't have it right now, I borrowed it long ago at the college library. His main sources must be Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Abd al-Hakam, ibn Kathir and Ibn Khaldun, I suppose.

Why did the Arabized population object so much to Berber languages being spoken?

Only now they are being given recognition.

Why did the french objected to breton langage being spoken?
Dialects goes against the unity of the country

That's a Greek woman, retard