Reperations Question

>Do Western nations owe ex-colonial countries reparations for their activities in said regions?
no

Not to mention the horrors the Berber slavers inflicted on the Mediterranean coastal communities.

Let's try to keep things civil, here.

What makes you say that? What reasons justify the refusal to pay reperations?

Personally, I've always thought the principal idea to be that colonialism was a system of conquering other nations and bending them into subservience. Much like any other civilization in history. The question becomes, then, if anything done in colonialism set it apart from other campaigns of conquest. Also, what makes Western European powers so special in that they have the responsibility to redress their past actions?

Is it domestic stigmas of racism or European-guilt that drives these ideas?

What is the proof that colonialism set back India?
What is the proof that reparations would help?

India is already getting foreign aid.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Official_Development_Assistance_received

Those people don't own the land they lived on. God does. And he gave it to to be governed by others. To bring you civilization. Unless you live in South America then you got something along the lines of your organs harvested.

Isn't that a bad argument, though? You're establishing an "us-then" dynamic between Europeans and non-Europeans, instead of individually.India never did anything to enslave or harm Europe, but select colonial powers, such as Britain, did.

If Morroco did indeed enslave the Irish, then those two counties should work that out. Morroco's transgression does not excuse the whole, though.

Also, colonialism brought much harsher realities to bear compared to anything Moroccans did.

participation trophies won't bring people back from the dead.

Tharoor actually raises a good point. All the infrastructure , including railroads, was designed to EXTRACT resources, NOT to promote domestic economic growth. In many instances, infrastructure in some colonies or disenfranchised areas was actually destroyed to prevent competition, such as in the case of American fruit and agricultural companies in Cuba and other Central American and Caribbean nations.

Can you elaborate?

The former British colonies are doing a fuck of a lot better than the former French ones are.

So, Europeans were given a divine edict to rule God's unchosen?

Giving away money doesn't change anything. IF you have a problem you should stop begging like whores and go fight them for it.

>All the infrastructure , including railroads, was designed to EXTRACT resources, NOT to promote domestic economic growth.
Are you suggesting that colonialism does not grow the economy?

Isn't it funny how it's only ever the countries with deeply incompetent governments that're singularly incapable of managing the country's affairs who raise the issue of reparations?

Yeah. They were. The Gods decide who wins wars.

Tharoor wants recognition of Britain's past wrongs more than actual financial compensation. He said he'd be happy with one pound a year, so long as it was done under the title of reperations.

Not for the colonized. Resources and labor are extracted for the benefit of the colonizer. That's the whole point

Fucking animal.

Then he doesn't actually care about the current state of India he's just a prick

>Not for the colonized
How can you say that when industrialization began under that system?

what's the difference between simple conquest and colonization?

It's colonisation if they're non-white.

>industrialization began under that system
It didn't. What are you talking about? India only properly industrialized after the British left.

>colonialism helped industrialize and build a foundation
>but not for the actual natives

post something to actually back up ur claims fags

That's what I've learned, yes. Those territories like India were designed to enrich and grow England's economy, not the colonies'.

Of course, I've also heard that many ex-colonies have benefited from colonial rule. Indonesia, I think, has benefited from old Dutch infrastructure and systems, and British security and stability set the conditions for the people of Hong Kong to develope their own advanced and extremely prosperous economy all on their own (in this case, the infrastructure provided by Britain as that of safety for businesses, thus allowing for the free market to flourish).

>Also, what makes Western European powers so special in that they have the responsibility to redress their past actions?
I'm no expert, but it seems like it's probably because the world/economy is more interconnected than it ever has been, so not only are people able to ask for reparations at all, they're able to do it in front of the whole world which adds an audience which is able to add the pressure of morality and etc. In the long run, that's probably a good thing so people can't absolutely fuck each other up without other people getting involved.

>colonialism helped industrialize
It didn't. Colonialism held back industrialization. Japan industrialized very effectively without European control

wheres the proofs

>India only properly industrialized
How can you say that when they had the use of a steam navy under them? Today, their navy is in shambles. And their people don't even have proper sanitation.

I think he mostly wants a kind of apology, in a way, for the continued abuses and sins of England against India, even into the twentieth-century.

He's argued Churchill was as bad as Hitler:

youtu.be/BSRI6RbKYOA

independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/winston-churchill-adolf-hitler-no-better-shashi-tharoor-indian-politician-post-colonialist-author-a7641681.html

>yeah-huh
>nu-uh
>yeah-huh
>nu-uh
>yeah-huh
>nu-uh
>yeah-huh
>nu-uh
>yeah-huh
>nu-uh

great debate fellas!

Shit. I forgot to reply to the posts with this. I'm a fucking idiot.

>Indonesia, I think, has benefited from old Dutch infrastructure and systems
Yeah because they didn't need to wipe out its population to gain a monopoly on nutmeg.

Africa experienced unprecedented growth purely because of the brutality inflicted on their inhabitants. Making them pious. Also, you are a money-grubbing whore trying to count how many dollars each place got to try and get more out of a country your people seceded from. Stop begging for money like a whore and get a job or start a war.

Dudes at least read a book first. Literally any book about British India
The British did not allow Indians to run factories or build complex machinery, like trains or ships. They restricted the Indian economy to producing raw materials to feed British mills and factories in order to benefit British workers

That is true. But they deserved it. For being savages. Civilization costs money, by the way. Which is why theirs was looted and turned into a mercantile colony.

It's a work-in-progress. Everyone's getting their ideas out into the thread and breaking the ice.

If you want to stick around and criticize the thread for going 100+ posts and producing no changed minds or in-depth discussion, please do. Honest and productive criticism is essential to fostering a quality debate.

However, it's still too early in the thread to be airing such grievances. Please refrain until some point in the near future.

>we have nuclear weapons and a space program
>you need to give our poor country money though

lol

Well, I don't know who you think I am or where I'm from, but the intent of this thread was to provide some platform by which I could gauge other peoples' views, opinions, and arguments in something I've been thinking about for a while. Since most of the initial posters in response to this thread have been vaguely anti-reperations, I've been trying to play a little devil's advocate in order to get more out of them. I'm sorry if I have failed in this endeavor.

No. Being linked to developed countries through colonization proved good after decolonization era since colonies had bigger economic ties with their former rulers which they wouldnt have otherwise. Also, todays generations are not responsible for acts of their ancestors. Furthermore, none of these states existed when Africa and Asia were conquered so they cant even ask for reparations on the basis of legal succession of rights. Ffs, India in pre British era was Mughal ruled, which is the predecessor of Pakistan and Bangladesh only, and even then both coubtries were created out of nothing and not on the basis of the Mughal state.

So no. These pajeets need to fuck off. Sorry for you being weak enough to get conquered. Shit happens.

>todays generations are not responsible for acts of their ancestors.

Doesn't this also refuse people taking pride in their ancestors' achievements?

it's a new religion. Nobody wants to a prophet, though.

>Doesn't this also refuse people taking pride in their ancestors' achievements?
It's your spook, do what ever you want with it.

Austria Hungary built basic shit in Bosnia to wxtract resources. And the rest was later built upon that.
Its Bosnia that deserves to pay for the construction services recieved, as well India.

They built you infrastructure. No matter for what, its a useful starting point if anything else.

No. Europeans should have done worse

Same user.

Yes, it does. Being too proud of that to the point of getting extremely nationalistic is ludicrous just the same. Being proud to a certain extent is a natural occurence as humans psycholigically seek to belong somewhere; and respecting the work that led up to you being born and living where you live is a basis for wanting to guard and keep "your castle" running and improving it. Feeling responsibility and duty towards your forefathers and thus tending to what they created is also logical. But going full blown "muh ancestorz! Let me kill konkuer fukk u stupid xenos aliens" is retarded.

Its where personally I make tbe distinction between patriotism ( which is love and duty ) and nationalism ( which I see as "muh pride" ). Terminology might be inaccurate but I cant think of better words there. Maybe nativism I guess.

>For being savages.
>made up 35% of world trade before the Anglo
>savages
thinking in maximum overdrive...

Honestly that sounds reasonable. An official apology attached to foreign aid isn't so bad. The hardest part is swallowing that pride.

only ppl with malice can question colonialism being harmful
reparations though, i dont think thats possible

if i take you to a trip and rape you, then let you work as my slave for 20years then release you, youll be hard pressed to believe me when i say it was for your benefit because you were a piece of shit neet before i took you

except the British empire was a literal continuation of the mughal rule, hence Victoria getting the title Empress of India.

And no, India's trade with Britain post independence was largely low.

>Doesn't this also refuse people taking pride in their ancestors' achievements?
Yes.

Why does a country that has a space program need foreign aid?

South Korea was by UN definition the worlds poorest country in 1949.

Today South Korea is prosperous. India is still a shithole.

I have no sympathy.

except british foreign aid to India was directed to british NGOs operating in India, not to the indian government. Our previous finance minister said it best. It was Peanuts.

>india is still a shithole
with a bigger economy than South Korea. And an independent foreign policy throughout the 20th century instead of becoming an US base

> bigger economy

Because of more people.

If you ask 1000 people where would they rather live, South Korea or India, they would all chose South Korea.

British rule is the only reason India even exists as a polity, until they all had the British to hate they just fought each other over whatever inane shit their princes decided

lol fucking what is this fat turn of a comment.

So?
Shithole or not, India's economy means that our state gets more international clout. And things are steadily improving in India all the time. I have lived here all my life, and things are getting better while whitebois on cambodian basket weaving forums keep making fun of us.
50 year ago it was
>India won't even last as a unified country. Democracy only works if you are western.
Now it is
>How dare india have a space program when it's people shit in the streets.
This too shall pass.

I don't think Britain should pay reparations on top of the foreign aid they already receive, call the foreign aid reparations and call it a day.

Oh so you're actually just one of those extreme nationalist poos who does nothing but rant about Britain, all day, everyday.

>68 posts in this thread, 23 posts
Gee, I wonder who keeps posting over and over.

Yes, which is why the dominion of British india ended with 3 major states that were partitioned without extensive surveys and over 500 princely states.
The current political boundary of india was formed well after the british gave India Independence.

He literally says that the reparations are as a symbol of even 1 pound a year is fine, if you are bitching about that then you are no better than those you hate.

No. I don't rant about the british. Actually, most people here rant about the USA and are happy that the UK is turning into Pakistan. After all, you can't keep eternal angloing the world forever.

>he operated on me and cut out the tumor!
>but he only did it because he needed a specimen!
Fuck off poo-in-loo

We will not pay higher than 50 pence! Subhuman.

>Medical analogy
More like
>he stole shit from my house and beat me up.
>then he took me to the hospital to get patched up and left my credit card details for billing
>and now he says, "At least I got you new dentures (That you paid for)"

WRONG. You are better off now than before

Britain already gives India like 1.5 billion pounds a year in foreign aid, what more does he want, and what good would it do exactly?

>Oh so you're actually just one of those extreme nationalist poos who does nothing but rant about Britain, all day, everyday.
So you must be some retarded poor chav with a mind of pudding ruled by a paki mayor.

Your misery is your own, dont try to pass it off like you are a man of influence while you are actually closer to a man of effluent.

The partition has more to do with Ali Jinnah's paranoia than British colonialism

Great, then it means you don't need foreign aid or reparations. It should all be cut tomorrow. Indian immigrants should also be deported since India is a world power.

No. A serious question to be raised is the idea of unintended consequences. Functionalists and liberal institutionalists (in the IR sense) were all gung-ho for decreasing sovereignty and increasing transnational authorities by thinking only of positives, not of negatives, and denying any agency to their 'antagonists' in the scenario.

The result is the slow destruction of the EU, Brexit, the rise of regimes hostile to the EU in Hungary and elsewhere, the migration crisis, ect.

What happens if reparations are forced upon colonial powers? From the get go you will have the rapid ascent of much more right or far right wing administrations who completely invalidate the agreement of reparations. The rich will seek to hide their money from taxation so the middle class and poor will be the ones who shoulder the burden and will reject wholehandedly any party that condones such a behavior. If hordes of raping and exploding migrants caused Schengen to die and right wing regimes to emerge.

Start taxing states already suffering austerity or near austerity and you will have Victor Orbans on steroids emerging across Europe.

Morocco didn't really do that. It was Algeria and Tunisia. Morocco was too poor, isolated by the mountains and backwards to do much external aggression.

They already establish the us-them dynamic.

Yes, post independence, India did start to get better once we had political leaders that invested money back into our country instead of sending it all to strengthen the british economy.

lmao keep waiting eurocucks :^)

>w-we were better off burning women and opressing untouchables, fucking brits

The partition was handled by the Radcliffe committee. The hackjob of partition was a british effort by the british government. But then anglos leave gaping wounds behind whenever they are booted off like the ticks they are.

You can only pay if you actually have it, so your finances invalidate your opinion.

>W-we were better off where industrial scale famine and soil degradation ruined entire provinces once a generation and all our money was sent to a foreign country. Fucking poos, why don't you see what good we did for you.

Is that why they opposed the partition until it became clear the Paki's would chimp out unless they got their meme state?

It stopped years ago. And Britain does deport Indians who overstay their visas. I am sure Mrs May will agree with your assessment even as she tries increasing trade with india.
In the current marketplace, India needs britain's markets far less than britain needs to trade with india.

>w-we were better off paying for our own exports and destroying local industrial capacities so that the british could enforce their own inferior cotton products while inefficiently build rail-works to drain india of its raw goods.

No wonder those mudslimes raped thousands of young brit girls, you are just reaping the shit you sow.

I am saying that they did an extremely pisspoor job of it, leaving thousands of exclaves in different countries and washing their hands off the entire mess with princely states.
The partition's handling was a purely british effort, and it was terrible

The India of today's government is based on western ideals. Do you really want to return to a life of Brahmin?

You mushrikins were certainly better off under the Mughal Empire desu

who will pay reperations to norway? denmark or england?

It was because the Hindus would have completely consumed the islamic population, all the urban centres of pakistan was full of hindus, they were the driving force behind most of its economy. Compared to now they are dependant on US and Arab handouts and overrun with arabic madrassas who have suppressed the need for a strong economy they have bought the islamic nonsense to its peak where kids are thought we was kangs shit by claiming they invented everything and the whites or hindus or indians stole it, also that pakistan was not inhabited before the coming of Muhammad Bin Qasim.

>western ideals
And? Are ideas of government patented by the brits?

Reparations or Foreign aid, I would like the Indian people to select the option that makes them silent on the subject of reparations for the next hundred years. Care to entertain me with their pick?

We unironically were. At least mughals did not tax us during famine and organized relief instead of masturbating to indigo and opium plants.