Can we talk about Gnosticism for a second?

So what do they think of there being two named Gods in the OT (original translation before both Yahweh and El were used interchangebly as "God"). Do they think El is the creator while Yahweh is the demiurge?

>Inb4 HUR DUR, El is just a title
Then explain versus like Deuteronomy 32 : 8-9
>When the Most High (El) gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel.
>For the Lord’s (Yahweh's) portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

>"The snake was the good guy"

lmao great share

>Do they think El is the creator while Yahweh is the demiurge?

Don't know if you're still here, but "Elohim" is sometimes considered plural and sometimes singular based on context. "Yahweh" is a distinct entity. I'll hit you with the wording and sauce in a sec, but I won't have links

Here it is, Marvin Meyers is the editor of the Nag Hammadi collection. It's on pg 127 of this edition, book "The Secret Book of John", in the chapter "Yaldabaoth Defiles Eve"(Yaldabaoth is the demiurge according to this):

>"The first ruler defiled Eve and produced in her two sons, a first and a second: Elohim and Yahweh."

>Elohim has the ace of a bear, Yahweh has the face of a cat.
>One is just, the other is unjust.
>He placed Yahweh over fire and wind, he placed Elohim over water and earth.

So from this we can draw the conclusions that they were created by the demiurge, thus neither is "the most high" original creator, since Sophia originates from the creator, Yaldabaoth originates from the Sophia, and these two derive from Yaldabaoth. Also of note is the elements. The four elements are not the same thing as periodic table of elements. The elements divide certain regions of cosmology. Fire and wind are references to higher spacial planes, water and Earth are references to material Earth. It seems, following from themes in Gnosticism, that Yahweh would be the good one and Elohim the bad one. It could be El is not referencing Elohim though, and El could be referencing the most high creator.

You are going to get shitposted to death by christians and those thinking gnosticism is purely /x/tier but historically they were a bunch of christian sects in the Roman Empire that had nothing in common except some vague traits that were opposed to the proto-Chalcedonian Christianity.
They vaguely had a common theme of Gnosis inspired by greeko-roman spirituality, there were very in little in common between most gnostic sects and gnosticism is a bit of a buzzword used against a bunch of late christian sects when mainstream christianism got power but some early church fathers had "gnostic" beliefs so it's probable that christianism was a lot less monolithic than what christians claim and mainstream christianism was probably "fixed" centuries later instead of somehow being the direct successors of the apostles.

>You are going to get shitposted to death by christians

You can be a Christian and still take something for what it is. Christianity and Gnosticism are really just bickering over details, they have the same goals.

That is pretty interesting that they do recognize there being 2 similar gods, but Elohim doesnt really sound like El (or El Elyon would be the alternative) as Bibically and historically (in the Caanite religion) El is reffered to as superior while it sounds like they veiw them as equals

Nigga this shit is blowing my mind. This is like cosmic horror shit like lovecraft except written way way back

I wonder how much hashish was consumed for them to come up with this kind of shit. Its actually scary how fucking well thought out and philosophical this lore is.

>gf is interested in gnosticism
>get her a book on it recommended by Veeky Forums
>she's now a hollow-earther/scientific revisionist
>pretty sure she hasn't even read Plato
Fuck

The Tetragrammaton is a back-formation of Old Hebrew revisionary writing that arose as the Desert Fathers used diacritical marks to censor the name of God (YHWH). The Names of God do not represent literal separate entities.
El/Elohim, El Shaddai, Adonai, etc are diacritical terms for YHWH

>i can't even read

Over in the scientology thread, we have this post.

>It's basically a gnostic myth (A long time ago, things were perfect and non-material, but then evil materialistic forces came and dragged the soul down from its perfect state, but with OUR SYSTEM, you can regain your perfect pre-material soul state).

>It's just wrapped up in sci-fi imagery instead of more classically religious imagery, so it seems stupider, but it's really the same kind of mythological construction that's been around for at least 2,000 years and probably longer.

Is there anything to this?

I agree, El Elyon and Elohim probably aren't the same concept.

>Its actually scary how fucking well thought out and philosophical this lore is.

It really is. They had way too much time to connect the dots they did. There are clear references from Christianity, Greco-Roman, Egyptian, going all the way back to early Babylonian religion interlocked. Loeb Library editions are good for figuring out exact terms if you ever get the time and money to look into it, mostly for the Greek translations.

lmao What went wrong

Your post confuses me. I think what you're trying to say is that Yahweh isn't a proper name for a single entity.

>Is there anything to this?

Ish. It's not specific to Gnosticism, but anti-materialism is very generally Gnostic.

I started reading into Gnosticism about two years ago and it's left my mind on fire.

Here are some things I have learned:
>The Creator is evil and is unaware that there is a higher power
>The Creator is the result of Sophia (wisdom) trying to have an offspring by herself
>All of us have divine sparks which do not correspond to our body or psyche
>All of us can escape this evil Creation and return to the true Godhead
>Gnosticism is Everywhere

And I truly mean everywhere. The more you learn about Gnosticism the more you will see that basically everything has a Gnostic connection. From the Matrix to the Lord of the Rings to any secret society.

All sounds good! Great post. I've never heard of the LotR connection though.

Then explain how God Most High gave a portion to God if theyre both names for the same entinty please, especially when the pre-Judaism Caanite religion explicitly lists them as seperate beings in an entire pantheon. Or a similar passage in Exodus where "God" explains that he was actually impersonating "God" in Genesis

Exodus 6:3 is what I was thinking of

If you read the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion you will be absolutely shocked. It is pure Gnosticism.

>Eru is the true One God who exists outside creation
>The Valar (Aions) created and managed the existing world "Eä"
>Reincarnation
>Spirit, Body, & Psyche
>So much more...

It's quite incredible. Also analyze the Matrix, The Truman Show, and so many other depictions.

There are also so many flavors of Gnosticism. There is the Roman Catholic flavor which is based out of the Casa von Balthasar in Rome and has special Papal protection. There young men aged 18-30 experience years of spiritual refinement in order to attain enlightenment. They rely heavily on the teachings of Adrien von Speyer and Hermes Trismegistus.

If you're not Catholic but are, say, an Aryan man who is seeking the truth you can be exposed to Miguel Serrano which claims Yaldabaoth is the Jewish deity and so, so, so much more. All Gnostic though.

>aryanism.net/wp-content/uploads/Adolf-Hitler-The-Ultimate-Avatar-Part-One.pdf

At the end of the day I've realized that the specific initiations toward Gnosis are not important. What is important are the basics. There are over 120 methods of achieving Gnosis, including the Eastern ways. Many of these methods do not require a "Master" and can be done on one's own.

>tfw some arab high on hashish 2000 years ago wrote a fanfiction inbetween tilling wheat fields and now its being analyzed like the gospel

Dude can you imagine what future historians will think of the marvel cinematic universe with its themes and references to deities???

SMASH DAT REPLY UTTON IF U SEENT DA EAMZ

>If you read the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion you will be absolutely shocked. It is pure Gnosticism.

BRAINLET BEGONE

Don't be stupid. It wasn't an Arab who wrote the Nag Hammadi script. It was a Greek or Coptic monk who was ordered to burn it after Saint Athanasius banned the teachings as heretical. The Gnostic teachings were more widespread in the early years after the death of Christ than any other strain of Christian thought. This is where the true difference between East and West comes into play.

In the West the Christian teachings were systematized through various councils and it was decided that a "universal" or Catholic doctrine would be taught. The inner, or esoteric, teachings would remain a secret as they always had in the West. See the Eleusinian Mysteries or Orphic magic as examples. The East however has always been more of an exoteric belief system with all the secrets and mysteries at the front plain for all to see. Early Christian thought (which was heavily Gnostic) actually flourished for some time in the East in the form of Manicheanism.

Thanks, I was just about to ask for verse. I suspect Yahweh is related to Jove(pronounced Yo-weh), an alternate name for Jupiter/Zeus since we know that the NH's refer to Yahweh as the ruler of fire and air, if fire entails lightning. We know from the Orphic Hymns that Zeus' lightning bolts were described as fiery in two different hymns. That's my personal suspicion anyways.

Matrix is loaded with Christian details and such(the first book Neo picks up, "Trinity",etc.). I always thought of LotR as sort of just neo-paganist in flavor, but that's good info. Elder Scrolls is my favorite tie-in. Chim as nirvana, the interplay between Padomay and Anu(basically Ahriman and Ahura Mazda, God's Pleroma spilling into the abyss).

Probably that we were cultureless brainlets with no respect for earlier traditions.

Listen brother I'm a Roman Catholic and I think you should read more Lewis, Tolkien, and Chesterton.

Also, read some of the works of Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar and Adrien Speyer. If you are truly Catholic, a male, and between the ages of 18-29 the path to enlightenment is available.

>casabalthasar.org/

May you find peace in your troubled soul.

>between the ages of 18-29
What's that got to do with anything?

>The Valar (Aions) created and managed the existing world "Eä"
This is wrong. The Vala shape the world as created by Eru, and they do so on his orders, besides the Satan analogue in Melkor, they're not even allowed to make major changes without Eru's consultation, like when Manwe has to "Lay down the viceroyalty of the world" when the Numenoreans invade.
>Reincarnation
Does not happen; you get a sort of crude resurrection, but only with the Elves, because elven death isn't exactly analogous to human death.
>Spirit, Body, & Psyche
Hardly limited to Gnosticism

Have you actually read the Silmarillion? Or anything from HoME? Because it doesn't sound like you have.

>The inner, or esoteric, teachings

People can be retarted without having read Plato? Thats a new one

If you are truly Catholic then you would know that saying LotR is Gnostic is nonsense.

>The Vala shape the world as created by Eru
The Valar shaped Creation through the music of the Ainur. How do we know this? We really don't. It's Elvish myth.

>like when Manwe has to "Lay down the viceroyalty of the world" when the Numenoreans invade
If you can't see this as an allegory for Atlantis...

>because elven death isn't exactly analogous to human death.
Not even Mandos knows what happens to Men when they die.

>Hardly limited to Gnosticism
The concept of the Body, Psyche, and the divine Spirit ARE Gnostic principles, user. Recorded thousands of years ago.

I think you need to re-read that Tolkien actually wrote. Very carefully. And then I think you need to stop commenting on topics (Gnosticism) for which you have no understanding.

You don't know much about the Roman Catholic Church, Gnosticism, or Tolkien's works. In fact you don't seem to know much about anything.

>Have you actually read the Silmarillion? Or anything from HoME? Because it doesn't sound like you have.

Not him, but your try harding is irritating. The only thing he got slightly wrong, if you are right, is the Valar role. The fact you called the Valar aeons in parenthesis, and then argue a few lines later that LotR is very separate from Gnosticism, is hypocritical. If you want your (you) take it and fuck off.

>The Valar (Aions) created and managed the existing world "Eä"

He was quoting me. He didn't make that connection.

>Body, Psyche, and the divine Spirit ARE Gnostic principles

No they are Jewish principles and are found in the Gospels.

>Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind

>heart - body
>mind - psyche
>soul - spirit

>le contentless meme post

I see that, but then he's arguing that they have the same roles as Aeons. He just describes what you already said.

I know. I'm done arguing with this moron. Especially after this He has no idea what he's talking about.

...

>people really read tolkiens shit
Kek

Soul and spirit may not be the same thing, the NH is generalized in it's approach to both things. So it goes Body Sense -> Psyche -> Spirit |-> Soul

I don't blame you. I think he's here to see prophetic or deep, but really he's messing up the most basic stuff.

>You can be a Christian and still take something for what it is. Christianity and Gnosticism are really just bickering over details, they have the same goals.
Nah, christianity is genocide, book burning and setting the stage for the 20th century.

>The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world. Who would be born must first destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.

>I suspect Yahweh is related to Jove(pronounced Yo-weh), an alternate name for Jupiter/Zeus
I have also been suspicious of this before as if Im remembering right, Yahweh was the storm god in the Canaanite Pantheon. But I cant find my source for that anymore so it may have been erroneous

>Stumbling over semantics

>jews as Christ-killers
Sorry. Jesus was to judaism as Martin Luther was to christianity.

Yahweh is Cronos.

Really guys a lot of this information is readily available. Are you all really young? If that's the case no problem but if you're not you have no excuse.

>they have the same goals.

They do not; Gnostics seek to glorify themselves whereas Christians seek to glorify God.

Yes both were God ordained revolutionaries.

>Yahweh was the storm god in the Canaanite Pantheon
I'll have to look into it, thanks mate.

Well your post is saying autistic things like heart is the body, well duh that's a given. Then mind is the psyche, that too is an obvious thing. Then the soul is the spirit, and that's contested in the early days of Christianity and Gnosticism. That's substance lacking, not semantics. Basically that whole dichotomy thing was pointless greentext for the purpose of try-harding, and somehow managed to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the schools of thought and period we're discussing.

>Yahweh is Cronos.

This must be bait. Or you're really one of those "everything is Saturn" youtube binging posters.

>Gnostics seek to glorify themselves whereas Christians seek to glorify God

If that were true, why would Gnostics be more scrutinizing in determining what the true God is? Their version on Genesis is pretty convincing, even without the additional stories.

If we are making parralels, shouldnt El Elyon be Cronos? Still leaving room for Yahweh to be Zeus.

Not sure of the exact context of Exodus 6:3, but critical to any form of Judeo-Christian knowledge is the fact that large sections of the original Hebrew texts are questionably translated and in fact partially untranslatable, owing to the gap between Old Hebrew and reconstructed Hebrew. The Dead Sea Scrolls did a lot to inform modern readers about elements of the original Hebrew that were obscure, such as the Tetragrammaton, Nephilim, etc. As they provided a broad, uncorrupted source of Old Hebrew for study.

The exact nature of the Names of God are imprecise in modern scholarship, but there's little evidence suggesting direct polytheistic origins; rather the efforts of the Desert Fathers seem to have been the eradication of polytheistic/pagan elements of Old Hebrew Faith through the revision of stories of Demons and great beasts. If a polytheistic origin of YHWH is extant, it is likely in coalescing disparate related Primary Gods into a single central deity; compare the Greek notion of a universal Pantheon and their treatment of the Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda as Zeus.

>Judeo-Christian esoteric* knowledge

Quibbling over whether "soul" or "spirit" is the correct word to refer to the immaterial divine part of a human being is quite literally a semantic argument.

>If that were true, why would Gnostics be more scrutinizing in determining what the true God is?

Because they are looking for any excuse to justify viewing themselves as the true God.

>but there's little evidence suggesting direct polytheistic origins

There's plenty. Whenever it's brought up, the Jews tend to make excuses like "elohim has always been singular, it's our language we decide what it means" despite context that directly proves them wrong in the OT. Let's look at Psalm 82(KJV):

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

>the original Hebrew texts are questionably translated and in fact partially untranslatable

So we can figure out every other contemporary version of Aramaic at the time, but not Hebrew?

>compare the Greek notion of a universal Pantheon and their treatment of the Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda as Zeus

Except they already knew Ahura Mazda as something else. There's versions of Latin retellings of the story in Zoroastrian creation that distance Ahura Mazda from Zeus. I don't think they were ever correlated with one another, but if you have sauce to the contrary be my guest.

>Witch of Endor, 1 Samuel 28 13
>"And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth."

Elohim is plural in at least two contexts here. Also, in Genesis, God says he fashioned man in our image, so he must be speaking to something in the plural. This fits with Gnostic descriptions.

Elohim is plural because God is Triune.

>Quibbling over whether "soul" or "spirit" is the correct word to refer to the immaterial divine part of a human being is quite literally a semantic argument.

What you just described is a soul. The spirit, at least in the contrary version, is temporal and subject to different states. It's based on the condition of the psyche, which itself is based on the body. Spirits can rise or fall in the spiritual realm, but are not themselves the "soul" of a being. At least in this version.

>Because they are looking for any excuse to justify viewing themselves as the true God.

Oh, it's retarded.

It's plural because the Book of Genesis was first written when the Jews were still polytheist.

This is before Jesus was on Earth. Are you suggesting Jesus spirit rose from the ground in the OT? The thing is, what the OT calls "Gods" are in the NT too. They just call them other things in Greek, like "thrones", "principalities", and "powers". When we hear "god" we tend to think of one singular thing, and it's clearly not even in Christianity. It's a tiered system beginning and ending with the singular creator. That's what's important. Ephesians even warns that there is evil in the heavenly realms.

>Thou shall not have any gods BEFORE me
Exodus 20:3

Funny thing to say if theres not other gods to be before of

>At least in this version.

Yes every gnostic has their own personal version and gnosticism truly is the heresy of special snowflakes.

No it's because the Holy Spirit inspired Moses with a partial revelation that would be fully revealed in Christ Jesus.

>Yes every gnostic has their own personal version and gnosticism truly is the heresy of special snowflakes.
That's not solely Gnostic. It's a question in early Christianity and hugely debated among the Cathars. We just all use soul because that's what is important.

>No it's because the Holy Spirit inspired Moses with a partial revelation that would be fully revealed in Christ Jesus.

What's that got to do with the several entities question? There are undoubtedly other important spiritual creatures, whether you call them angels, elohim/gods, or principalities.

>t's a question in early Christianity and hugely debated among the Cathars.

It's a semantic distraction, whether you use the word "soul" or "spirit" both words point to the same thing. Even non-Christians get this stuff:

youtube.com/watch?v=CwPWDMvT21E

>There are undoubtedly other important spiritual creatures, whether you call them angels, elohim/gods, or principalities.

Very true but the word "Elohim" refers to the Triune Creator God specifically.

>It's a semantic distraction, whether you use the word "soul" or "spirit" both words point to the same thing

It's a pretty big deal if there's an intermediate stage relationship between the psyche and the soul, which would be spirit. Or it would be describing a part of the soul that is subject to elevation or fall.

>unrelated video
>unrelated picture
>arguing that random people out there don't differentiate, therefore no one has ever differentiated between the two

Dear God, I think I've attracted the attention of the worst poster in the world. You know who you are. Surprised you're not shilling your own nonsense now. Ran out of material?

>Very true but the word "Elohim" refers to the Triune Creator God specifically.

In no sense. You're saying the witch of Endor saw the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit rise out of the ground? The Holy Spirit was speaking in congress with Jesus and the Father, and told them that they would someday die like men(true for Jesus, not true for the aspect of the Father)?

It really is not a pretty big deal because it has no bearing on eternity, it is just a debate scribes use to sharpen their pencils. And no, the witch of Endor saw Samuel rise out of the ground, Elohim is the Creator.

>And no, the witch of Endor saw Samuel rise out of the ground, Elohim is the Creator.

If she saw Samuel rising out of the ground, why did she say she saw Elohim? Why is it translated as "gods"? Why is this not the only context in which Elohim is referred to in plural?

>Saul and the Medium at Endor

>3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

>4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

>“There is one in Endor,” they said.

>8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

>9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

>10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

>11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

>“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

>12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

>13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

>The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

>14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

>“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

>Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

- 1 Samuel 28:3-14

>“I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

Two problems here. First, it doesn't say "ghostly figure". The KJV, cited above, says specifically "gods". Secondly, the original Hebrew word used is "Elohim", which is also demonstrated via Psalm 82 to be referencing a large congress or host of beings, spiritual in nature and powerful arbiters, but inevitably mortal. This is important, because it doesn't matter if it was Samuel or not. It was the language she used in the first place. Secondly, Deuteronomy 18:10 BANS what the witch of Endor is doing in the first place. It's supposed to be displeasing to God. That raises a bunch of questions on why this is less reflected in the NT and how it's supposed to be an abomination in the first place.

As far as Endor is concerned the text explicitly says it was Samuel

>12 When the woman saw Samuel

However the Psalm 82 example is a good one and proves that the meaning of "elohim" is ultimately determined by context. The post that I originally replied to that began this whole debate was referring to the Elohim of Genesis () and that usage does refer to the Triune Creator Deity which is the point I wanted to make. Yet as with any Hebrew word, context plays a decisive role in determining meaning and I was mistaken to imply a singular definition for the word "Elohim" regardless of context. Thank you for challenging me on this.

>As far as Endor is concerned the text explicitly says it was Samuel
No shit user, but that's irrelevant. She thinks she sees the Elohim, and that's referred to as "gods" in KJV. That's based on a precedent established elsewhere in the Bible, where in Psalm 82 Elohim is clearly several things, which again is more clearly defined as "gods" specifically. It doesn't matter whether she saw them or not, she had the concept of Elohim and that's translated into "gods" in translations with a good basis. You were literally arguing it was trinity she saw like ten minutes ago, so it sounds like you're grappling with that still.

>The post that I originally replied to that began this whole debate was referring to the Elohim of Genesis () and that usage does refer to the Triune Creator Deity which is the point I wanted to make

Which still doesn't make sense. The Gnostic text I used earlier with the definition of Yahweh vs Elohim actually have a good reason for that as well. It just makes more sense with the NH context added.

My argument has only been that "Elohim" in Genesis refers to the the Trinity however you are right to point out that there are other instances of the word "Elohim" that do not refer to the Trinity. Hebrew is a context based language so its lexemes have dynamic definitions and I should have made that more clear earlier. I'm grateful that you raised this objection because it provided an occasion to explore the nuances of God's word and is a reminder to discuss theology with the precision that it deserves. I have to go now but I enjoyed our debate, God bless you and I will be praying for you.

>My argument has only been that "Elohim" in Genesis refers to the the Trinity

For the record, there's no record or hint of this. It's a baseless claim.

That's ripe learning age. Not a kiddo but not too set in your ways.

>KHV translation
O I am laffin

You understand that this statement directly implies that the other gods are false idols, right?
Also, that specific passage is one of the most obscure in Old Hebrew.

>implies that the other gods are false idols
Thats how it is taught, but what in the text implies this? He goes on to say in Exodus 20:5 that he is a jealous God, not the only god.

>think about that for a while

how about you grow up for a while

>endor

I mean, it's entertaining, but entertainment shouldn't be the sole basis for devoting oneself to a belief system.
If you're interested, I highly recommend reading St. Augustine's Confessions in order to understand the appeal of gnostic sects (specifically Manichaeism) and the Christians' refutation of it.

>tfw the kikes lifted wholesale pretty much all their religious doctrines straight from the Zoroastrians after they were kind enough to free them in Babylone (big mistake) and so Christians turned to all these wacky ideas like Gnosticism to try to reconcile the universalist, egalitarian, mystery-cult like nature of Jesus's message with the primitive brutality of the Old Testament that was the result of an unsophisticated Semitic tribe attempting to understand something as refined as Zoroastrianism.

dumb frogposter

>why are the romans persecuting us?
The fuck? It was the earlier christians doing the hunting