ITT: Thoughts on fallen empires

Portugal never separated from Spain since they were never really together, unless you're talking about the Iberian Union but that was really short and both Spain and Portugal existed as separate kingdoms before then

to call it a war of independence, as far as I know, is disingenuous. A formality at best compared to our neighbours. It was a case of individuals inside that held their allegiance to the old country.

Also, of course Portugal was largely against it, their economy depended heavily on the American colony after the decline of the Asian ones. We financed the reconstruction of Lisbon in the country's worst disaster. Portugal had no healthy economy, it's wasn't merely a matter of ideology, both sides were Portuguese.

Our side of wanting independence is largely based on aspirations towards the US and much of the language used reflected that. The population was biased against the motherland because of extensive and exhaustive taxation but all in all little changed with the independence. There is no other country comparable to ours in all of the American continent that went through such a conservative nation building exercise. I assure you that the average citizen lived and died without seeing major difference in the country during the transitional period.

There is no American Empire.

I guess I agree with you though there were ups and downs in the transition

I am merely saying what I believe to be mainstream understanding of the subject. I am glad I could get my point across though, I have trouble writing in a concise way you know

I now live in Portugal btw and they consume Brazilian culture and news and people like crazy. It's hard to tell them that a BR may live his/her whole life without learning anything about Portugal after school history classes, I imagine it sounds absurd to them.

Except that they were. Since the king of Spain was the same as the king of Portugal, he had a mandate over them and they enjoyed certain benefits that were not bad, like being able to expand their colonial territory, since it does not make sense to prohibit your own kingdom from expanding.

> existed as separate kingdoms before then

They were not "separate kingdoms", it was Portugal within Spain. Just as was Aragon, Navarre, Sicily, Burgundy, etc.

>pic unrelated: a brazilian-forced memempire

Pic related.

>it was Portugal within Spain
Not that guy, you are confusing the Roman idea of Hispania or Iberia with the state of Spain. It's like confusing Alexander the Great's land with modern day Macedonia. It's understandable because few people learn about Portugal. They were never really one, Spain as a whole is more of a geographical satisfying idea than anything politically concise, historically speaking. since the beginning there were many different peoples and societies living alongside the peninsula.

Picture Yuguslavia

Manchuko fascinates me, a colony that existed to court an ethnicity that has largely been content living in China, headed by Pu Yi, a man who, after reading his autobiography (Which is quite obviously heavily edited by relevent communist authorities) was very inclined to regain an Imperial title, in the book he repeatedly describes how overjoyed he was at the ceremony of Empire, and considering his actions taken in the Forbidden palace after his abdication, he might have been the reformer that the Chinese Empire desperatley needed, I think it's sad that Manchuko never achieved proper independence and was instead transferred to China, something which seems completely contrary to the polciies of self determination and Anti-Imperialism that the western powers would eventually adopt (especially considering that Manchuko as a state already existed as a hypothetical legal entity)

You literally picked the Coat of Arms of the Iberian Union (Philip II) which as I said before, Portugal and Spain were seperate before then

The story of how Victoria adopted the title of Empress of India is a fascinating look into romanticism and illustrative of Victoria's personal interest in the Jewel in the crown, It's interesting that we refer to Britain's entire colonial enterprise as "The British Empire", because as far as i can tell the only place where an Imperial title was given was when Victoria asked to become Empress of India.

Yeah, it's really amazing to consider the Chinese build the foundations to a great economy so well that it survived being punched from all sides and blown up from the inside. Manchuko would be a really interesting state to study and nowadays it would really shift the whole int politics of asia

Well Manchukuo wasn't transferred to china by the western powers because they never controlled the region, here's the order of control:

>Republic of China
>Japan
>State of Manchukuo
>Soviet Union
>Peoples Republic of China

The western powers wouldn't want to advocate for manchurian indepence during the cold war

I'm not confusing it, I'm giving it its proper historical value. Spain [Spain] is the Castilian form of the Latin word Hispania. The kings of Spain were considered as such because they began to take almost the entire peninsula, that is, the same territory that the Romans had before and that the Visigoths had later. Therefore, they considered themselves the heirs of this territory and Portugal is not the exception.

Spain as a nation-state is an artificial creation of the 19th century.

So was Aragon and Navarre.

When Aragon and Navarre were independent, The Kingdom of Spain wasn't yet created it was just Kingdom of Castile

>[Spain]
I mean [España]

Aha, and then it became the Kingdom of Spain. Are you unable to understand a personal union or what?

The point still stands, Portugal and Spain were never united before The Iberian Union unless you want to say that the visigoths were spanish

I was including Russia as a western power, because to tell you the truth I'm not very familiar with Russia's history in Asia, so i've always considered them more European, It just seems strange that Manchuko as a state even post coldwar has become a non entity, or that the indoctrination that the Manchuokan-Japanese administration engaged in didn't lead to any form of rebellion or revolt against the Communist government (Or at least any rebellion i've heard of.) or even during the short period where the Chinese Nationalists controlled Manchuria, could 10 years of propodanga be wiped away that easily?

Russia is Europe but not Western. Why do Americans never understand the difference.

I'm British, Russia's classifcation isn't simple considering it's ethnic makeup and sheer territorial span, especially in the pre-cold war, the allies are sometimes reffered to as "The western allies", and Russia was a part of them, i might be wrong but i'm defensibly wrong.

It's because the cultural identity of Manchukuo has disapeared due to the melting of the chinese sub-cultures into a single Chinese culture.

kinda like the germans which used to be different cultures but all became unified as just "the german culture"

I said that Portugal was part of Spain, you said no, now you seem to be discussing if it was on this or that date, which is irrelevant and I never mention it.

>Russia isn't Western
You fucking what mate? Are you retarded?

I think his post ny was that Portugal and Spain remained separate legal entities, and thus were never truly a single nation.

fallen, not teetering

But the Manchurian identity does still exist, it's not like Germany, because in Germany The differences between a Hannovarian and a Bavarian would be religious and dialectical at most, where a Manchurian and a Han would have different cultures and be part of a different Ethnicity, with a different language, and after a decade of propaganda cementing that Manchuko wasn't china, In Pu Yi's autobiography he talks about a Manchukoan Japanese mining official crying in joy when Pu-Yi visisted (assuming this wasn't some ccp meddling or a japanese potemkin village) It's hard to imagine that Manchurians would be content with being absorbed into a different culture, maybe it's just me projecting my Western ideas of nationalism onto a very different people, but it all just seems strange to me.

The Western world is defined by being non-Orthodox Christianity and going through the same historical/cultural development.

For example, Russia didn't even industrialize until the 20th century after their defeat by the Japs. Up until then it was literally just hordes with guns like the fucking Ottomans.

My point about the Spain wasn't formed yet was that the personal union of Castille and Aragon was different than say, the PU between Austria and Hungary in the sense that, a new title/crown was created thus making them de jure part of "Spain".The union with Portugal however had no such thing making them as said:

Separate entities

>The western world if defined by being non-orthodoxy Christianity
This is retarded and you know it.

The way Brazilians idolize their "Empire" is autistic as fuck. It was a shithole and it still is a shithole. Nothing has changed.

If anything, the Republicans should have gone further in chaging the established order.

You ARE wrong.

The "Allies", include the Soviet Union.
The expression "Western Allies" was coined precisely to exclude the communists and make the distinction.

The concept of nation is modern and invented in the French Revolution. Obviously they were not the same nation. They were not separate entities, they were different kingdoms united under the authority of the king himself.

All the kingdoms of Spain, not only Portugal, had exclusive rights and privileges of them. Look:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Arms

The concept that you have of nation-state is not exportable to the governments of before, because they do not work even closely. So no, not because they were in a Personal Union the king could do whatever he wanted, but that does not mean they were not the same entity.

1. I never said it was great, I said that it had great potential

2. Of course you say that, by today's standards it was a shithole but at the time, the place was pretty good

3. You said the republicans (the military) should have changed more things, but they would have never done that as they just used slavery as an excuse to implant their utopian military dictatorship and didn't actually plan to change anything more than that which then prompted the people with actual power (The big farmers) to take over the government and make a status quo.

I miss the German Empire.

you replied to the wrong post

1.That's not what i meant, what i meant in that they are separate is that they are de jure (legally) separate

2.That article just talks about a proposal of military cooperation between the kingdoms

3.I never implied the king could do whatever he wanted.

4. They are de facto the same entity but de jure, they aren't

Same

Oh and btw, this conversation is going nowhere so ill just end it with this:

The Lusosphere will never willlingly be under spanish control.

No kingdom in Spain was de jure the same entity. For each kingdom they were different titles, because they were different kingdoms, and I will not go around in circles with this.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree

sooooo...

>Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree
You can not "agree or disagree" is a fact.

Also, portuguese have more in common with spaniards that with britons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agree_to_disagree

And I never said anything about britons

This will be my last response to you btw