Start reading history a lot despite having read a lot of fiction

Rome went to shit after it was founded
the world would be better if the Etruscans ruled Italy

this

Did Rome really fall because they essentially gave foreigners citizenship and eventually took over?

The sources tend to be biased towards these empires because society in Rome was generally more healthy and prosperous. So more writers and sources survive. Also, if you think about according to common belief 3 of the first 5 emeporers were killed before their time not much better than the others.

Also, if you dont study later history you miss out on the biggest and meanest emporers like the "The Restorer of Worlds " Auerellian. I'm under the full belief the Roman army of 300 would embarrass and smash the Roman army of 50 AD. But the political and societal structure of 50 AD rome was much stronger.

Two ways of looking at the fall of Rome. The immediate cause and the long term cause. The immediate cause of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire came from ambitious and strong Romano Germanic military leaders deciding that their power was better protecting and used outside the structure of the Roman Empire as it was known. This came in large part do to the string of child and puppet emporers who were unable to fulfill the expanded role of the Emporer as it had been in the 4th century.

So, it's more like Rome died because the foreigners and frontier(bothsides) people rejected their Roman identity and formed something different. But it is important to note that almost all them saw themselves as part of the Roman world (maybe not the vandals) but not necisarilly the political structure of the Western empire.

Hmmm sounds pretty similar as to whats happening in europe right now.
Really gets the noggin joggin.

No shut up. Rome had been using these same men for hundreds of years before the collapse. It was the chaos and void in the center that led to these ambitious army generals to go it alone.

Also, when the armies and leadership of European states are made up of immigrants let me know.

God I'm not even a liberal, but it kisses me off when people try and force this interpretation of History. You can't make history for your current political views. At best you can use your modern views to shape what you look for and what questions you ask.

It kisses you off does it?
Why don't you come and give me a smoochy smooch then ;)

Sure, sounds good.

It is whats happening in europe though.
History will repeat itself.

Yes, the Russian hockey team is doomed to die over and over.

Exactly.
Just like the fourth Reich will come and we will actually do a holocaust.
No fake.

No that wasn't the case at all, if anything one could argue the opposite - that Rome fell because it didn't manage to integrate the foreigners it welcomed.

These foreigners you talk about were perfectly fine with their roman identity, what brought them into conflict was the unwillingness of the romans to view them as anything besides useful barbarians. What they wanted was official positions within the roman administration and a new homeland for their people.
Besides, blaming the downfall simply on the conflict between barbarians and romans is too reductionist as alot of shit combined caused the downfall of the WRE.

Don't be an idiot.

Oh please elaborate on how the same thing is happening in Europe now.

the Empire was a mistake, Rome stopped being worth saving when the Republic fell

The roman state became an empire long before the fall of the republic and at it's demise it was blatantly obvious that their system wasn't working any longer

*its

Latins always had issues with accepting other people as Romans. Remember that they only extended Roman citizenship to other Italic peoples when Rome was threatened by invasions.
The Latin unwillingness to expand Roman citizenship was sadly a feature, not a bug.

>Remember that they only extended Roman citizenship to other Italic peoples when Rome was threatened by invasions.
Didn't the extension of the citizenship come as a result of the civil war with the italians?

IIRC, they gave a bunch of Italians Roman citizenship during the Punic Wars, to keep them on the Latin side.

I wouldn't say it's reductionist to say that the decentralization of a semi Roman military because of weak central leadership was the immediate cause of the downful. There are downward long term trends also, but that doesn't change the final cause.

This, although I would argue its last hope of existing in the west in any state at all died with majoran.

But it wasn't just armies and leadership but whole tribal units living independently of roman culture but on roman land. Assimilation stopped happening and groups were concentrated instead of being dispersed over the empire.

Call it an interpretation if you like.

How tall was he really?Like, obviously 8’0” was a gross exaggeration but he must have been pretty tall.Like 6’6”?

>Also, when the armies and leadership of European states are made up of immigrants let me know.

This is already the case though? Especially armed forces have a significant number of immigrants or children of immigrants in them (probably related to lower socio-economic status). However immigrants and again especially their children are increasingly present in the political theater as well. In my country for example there is a political party with seats in parliament over which there is serious concern that they are directly influenced by Turkey. All members are of Turkish origin.

But they were still a heck of a lot more liberal about passing out citizenship than any Hellenic city-state, where the only way to make a new citizen was for two previously existing citizens to make a baby, which led to chronic population decline in most city-states.

Romans followed a tiered citizenship model, loyalty to Rome was rewarded with gradually incremental access to privileges and responsibilities, new peoples were constantly being integrated as Romans, entire areas would Romanize and be providing loyal soldiers for the legions. Romanization happened in spite of Latin opposition, when wealthy land-owners realized that labor was cheaper when it was disenfranchised so they had a vested economic interest in gunking up Romanization so that they could bilk second class citizens out of their wealth and labor without reproach, so they sparked up an unlikely political alliance with the proletariat and rural poor against the urban literati and professional classes.

That happened after the Battle of Adrianople, which had lead to a stalemate in the Balkans between the Goths and Romans, with the compromise being that Goths would keep their own officers and fight as their own autonomous unit, rather than be integrated into the army.

how did one prove they were a Roman citizen?

The republic has been going to shit since the murder of Gracchi brothers, Caesar only gave the fatal blow to the long-agonizing republic

Yes, it was after the Social War (91-88 BC), prior to that the other Italic people were considered foederati (which literally means they were roman allies)

>Caesar only gave the fatal blow to the long-agonizing republic
Caesar was the last real attempt to reform it from within