Are the Netherlands really better off without the Southern Netherlands (Belgium)?

Are the Netherlands really better off without the Southern Netherlands (Belgium)?

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Yes, controlling one of the most densily populated and richest regions on earth is clearly a huge disadvantage

Had they stayed united then, utilizing the wallonian and limburg coal mines the entire netherlands could have industrialized early instead of just belgium, which then combined with the dutch colonial holdings could have very well propelled the country into a new golden age. Remember that barely 30 years after the revolution Belgium was by far the economically dominant of the 2 nations and would remain as such until WWI.

Not to mention that having the harbors of the netherlands and belgium cooperate instead of compete could have given the united country a dominance in terms of western european naval trade

That said to keep the netherlands united the country would have needed to go through some rather radical reforms in a fairly short period in order to properly integrate the southern people, especially the wallonians.
The mistake on the part of the dutch king was to treat the newly acquired people as if he had subjugated them, when in fact they were merely assigned to his country by external powers and as such were not tempered by a recent military conquest as they had been under french rule.

Pretty much. People often forget Belgium was the second country to industrialise after the UK

The real question is: could the country have stayed together untill anno 2018 if the French weren't involved? I always wonder what the Southern Netherlands would look like without Belgium. Belgium has some pretty interesting architecture and culture, but who knows what it could have been like instead.

how would wwi play out though? I suppose a united low country could be supplied by the anglos against germans?

I doubt Wilhelm II would go through the Netherlands since he had quite a lot of respect for Wilhelmina

No, a united low country could be supplied by Germany against the anglo's

>stay
I don't really get this meme. Belgium only became part of the netherlands as a result of Britain's insistence that france be stripped of the territory and it's points. The Dutch in the north neither liked nor respected the Flemish and wallonians and the latter two didn't like being under the Dutch heel. The union was really only popular with the King.

but netherlands and britain had decent ties historically and with belgium too. geopolitically britain was the defender of low country sovereignty in the modern age. all depends on the economic and political nature of a united low countries

>neither liked nor respected
Flemish were just considered Dutch in the 18th early 19th century even though they didn't live in the free Netherlands. Why would Dutch hate their own kind?

I'd say that most Dutch still consider the Flemish as Dutch or at least close enough to justify a unification. However it is the Flemish that absolutely hate the Dutch (according to my Flemish friend, who is an exception to the rule).

He's full of shit. I'm Flemish myself and i've loads of Dutch online friends, even met some irl and it was a blast. The 'hate' he's referring to is mostly banter, no one here has a real grudge against the Dutch.
That being said one of the reasons it didn't work out is the religious (and cultural) divide which goes back to the Eighty Years' War, as the Flemish Catholics weren't too fond of their proddy overlords.
You could say the Spanish were the ones why truly crushed the dream of a united low countries, only for the French to crush it again by supporting the rebelion

As a flemish guy, what do you think of the idea of a greater netherlands encompassing modern day netherlands and flanders?
And why is the flemish language so much nicer and the people so much friendlier than the cold and arrogant dutchmen?

>a dominance in terms of western european naval trade
Very unlikely, how could they match the British at sea at this time?

>the idea of a greater netherlands encompassing modern day netherlands and flanders?
We have diverged too much i think, 400 years is a long time. It could have worked out i guess if the union survived in 1830, but it didn't.
It's a bit more complex than "hurr they speak Dutch so they should be annexed already" like you read all the time on Veeky Forums and /int/
That being said Belgium hasn't really worked out either.

>And why is the flemish language so much nicer
We don't butcher our g's and r's. The Dutch really do sound like arabs sometimes
>people so much friendlier than the cold and arrogant dutchmen?
We're introvert and will attempt to not to hurt your feelings, while they will say what they think without bullshitting around. There's some appeal to both in my opinion

They called the flemish Spanish Brabander and Little Moor in the north. It was not considered nice.

>country is filled with French
>could the country have stayed together untill anno 2018 if the French weren't involved

Dumb question user

>country is filled with French

It's not just about naval power but about something which the british never had since the loss of Calais: european mainland trading ports
the low countries region contains the port cities of Rotterdam and Antwerp which are even to this day the number 1 and number 2 busiest port cities on the continent. Rotterdam being the main dutch port, Antwerp being the main belgian port.
A full on cooperation between those 2 strategically located ports would hade given a massive edge in terms on shipping on the mainland.

I'd say if a united netherlands managed to industrialize at the same rate belgium did historically, by the advent of WWI the netherlands would have at least been a very respectable secondary power on the worldwide theater, and perhaps even a lower end first rate power depending on how well their colonial empire went. As such the Germans would have been wary of involving them in any war plans against the french as enemies.

the Wallonians aren't true french, and at the time of the revolution were even further removed culturally than is the case today
belgium, post independence underwent a rather radical frenchification induced by the nobility and wealthy industrial elites
while an obvious example of this on a map would be how the language border between flanders and wallonia steadily moved upwards during the years, a less well known but in some cases more dramatic consequence was the the unique wallonian culture and even language were gradually phased out in favor of the cosmopolitan french
Do remember that wallonia, during it's history, has only been a part of france for a mere 15 years since the death of Charlemagne, for most of it's history it was part of the holy roman empire and later on the austrian and spanish netherlands

had the dutch king and government done the proper efforts to integrate them and give them cultural liberties a union could have remained stable

>massive edge
Still wouldn't be enough to compensate for Britain's far vaster control on world shipping lanes, by the 19th century the Dutch republic was a footnote compared to the economic activity of Britain and France. London was the world's most important and economically successful city at this time, Britain can more than overcome the advantage at sitting at the mouth of the Rhine by her worldwide economic force.
If we're talking post-ww2 then the ports may have the most activity but because they're vital for those trading with Germany.

the Dutch republic had become a footnote yes, but Belgium however had not
During the late 19th century Belgium was the 6th largest economical power in the world by sheer virtue of it's coal mines allowing for incredibly aggressive industrialization.
Imagine this applied to the entire netherlands.

Britain and Holland were rivals, but friendly rivals, not like Britain and France. The Brits were and still are grateful for the Glorious Revolution, and "British" industrialization and capitalism were both invented in Holland. It's quite likely a United Netherlands and Britain would have been close allies, once they settled the few colonial disputes they had.

>the Wallonians aren't true french
Yes they are, and "Wallonian" is an exonym gave to the French of Belgium by the Germanic invaders, just like "Gallo" is an exonym gave to the French of Britanny by the Bretons.

You might as well call the Germans Krauts or Huns.

>has only been a part of france for a mere 15 years
It doesn't change the fact that French and "Wallons" share a common language, blood, and culture.

>British industrialisation and capitalism was invented in holland
The stock market and some aspects of modern banking but as a whole this statement is mostly false.

...

Why did you post a picture of yourself ?

>0,55% of the votes
Ah yes, such a strong movement. Meanwhile Flemish nationalists get 30%+
also

>rattachsime
>implying they were ever part of France in the first place
>implying the French want to add another northern shithole to their collection
>implying Broekzele is French
>mfw

This is /int/ shit, not Veeky Forums shit.

>Veeky Forums is shit
fixed

>be Flemish
>hate the French
>hate the "Walloons" even more
>want to secede
>dream about Lotharingia and Groot-Nederland
>Walloons are tired of your BS and want to go
>complain about rattachsime

I'm not complaining, just laughing at their mental retardation. Besides, the French can have them for all i care, but i highly doubt they even want them.

*pillarization intensifies*

They're a bit inbred like their Picard brothers, but this can be fixed with a bit of eugenism.

And corporations, they are kind of important, another Dutch invention. Dutch industrialisation petered out because they only had peat to burn, but they laid the foundations with their early textile factories that would be copied to such great success in Britain.

The Schlieffen-Moltke plan could only work by invading this hypothetical Netherlands (Germany had original planned to invade the Netherlands too, but eventually restricted themselves to Belgium only) which means the Netherlands would probably be joining the Entente. However, no Belgium means the UK would be way less likely to join the war as British public was incredibly apathetic to joining until the krauts marched all over Belgium.

Of course, this counter-factual of Big Netherlands could completely change the geopolitics of Europe. The Netherlands would have industrialized very early in this scenario and controlled much of Europe’s trade, meaning a second Anglo-Dutch rivalry could be on the board. Depending on how Germany played their cards, we could see an Anglo-German alliance against the Netherlands and maybe France, or a Germano-Dutch alliance against British naval supremacy. Or maybe Weltpolitik and the expansion of the German navy sends the Netherlands into UK and French arms.
And without Belgium as a buffer zone guaranteed by great powers the relationship between France and the Netherlands would be very different. So many things to consider.

Britain developed the technology and the machines needed for those factories. Little was copied.

>hate the French
>hate the "Walloons" even more

Why? I'm Flemish and I love France and Walloons.

If Belgium and the Netherlands stayed united, the Netherlands could have benefited from Belgium's early industrial revolution and having a sort of monopoly on the two biggest harbours.
But today, the southwest of Belgium (Hainaut) is very poor and shows no sign of recovery, it is basically as if a region of Ukraine was dropped on Belgium (and a big reason why a lot of Flemish want to break up). So in that regard, the Netherlands is better.
And I don't really know if being bigger really is better for a country, anyway the BeNeLux was there for that purpose.

You have a weird way of "loving" imo

youtube.com/watch?v=X-0AkE5kY9E

You have to mention that this in in Linkebeek (Flemish Brabant, near Brussels) where French language imperialism and Flemish resistance meet each other. What do you even expect when natives are forced to give up their language?

It's not like there is no reason for it

Look up old wallonian, it is a dialect of french with sufficient unique characteristics it borders on being a separate language.
Like I said, the current state of wallonian culture is the direct result of the driven frenchification during the 19th century which would not have happened under dutch rule (heck the attempts to dutchify the wallonians by the dutch government are among the prime causes for the revolution)
Something that isnt easily acknowledged these days is that culturally speaking the flemish and wallonians have grown remarkably close despite the language barrier, a process that was already fully underway by the time independence was declared. Never forget that there was a very real choice for flanders to remain with the netherlands and that this choice was not taken.
Even the concept of belgium as a nation (first envisioned as a republic) predates the french revolution and several failed uprisings to establish this state had been subdued at that point

Is your friend from Ghent? Ghent has always been the most Orangist town in the Southern Netherlands.

B-but muh non-country

>being a Flemish nationalist=being a racist and anti democratic
the absolute state of wallonia

>tfw when a monument of the liberation of Antwerp is built in Tournai because Antwerp refused to accept it.

Most people in Brussel look like this nowadays.

He's from near the border, closer to Brabant I think.

Fucking ripped?

desu Dutch tourists can be quite cancerous

>Are the Netherlands really better off without the Southern Netherlands (Belgium)?
Hell yeah, they preferred being cucked by the Spanish king instead of fighting for their freedom when they had the chance. Now they prefer sucking french cock as has so graciously shown. No use for such losers in our country of FREEDOM.

We don't hate hollandbro, it's just a rivalry between brothers.

Most Flemings would chose the Netherlands any time over the Walloons.

t. Fleming

>wallonia
No
>flandern
Yes

Dumbpost
Wall of text

>wallons and flemish grew together
>still no joint government

...

Kommet einfach Heim ins Reich Jungens und Ende.

>netherlands cant stay neutral in WW1 because of autistic krauts
>million dutch die
probably would be better off with belgium as human shield

are you fucking retarded?

>that HRE feel