Japanese Persecution of the Church

Were the Japanese justified in quashing Christianity in their lands? I was watching this movie the other day, and at first I sympathized with the priests and their struggle, but then I remembered what the Catholics did to "heretics" like the Cathars. Then I just felt bad for the Japanese who were duped into believing in Christianity, but I couldn't really sympathize with the priests anymore knowing that they would have condoned the same kinds of persecutions the Japanese were committing if the tables were turned and it was Buddhism spreading among the common people of Europe. Thoughts?

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Anyone?

Yeah, here's a thought. Stop using Christian and Catholic interchangeably.

The Cathars weren't all sunshine and rainbows, they were doing weird abduction rape cult type stuff

>weird abduction rape cult type stuff
Give me a reliable historical source for that, I have never heard this before and it sounds like propaganda.
My bad. Substitute the word Christian in OP for Catholic. The movie is specifically about Catholicism and the Jesuits, after all.

According to whom?

To be honest I struggle to believe Christians with their martyrdom stuff. Christians go out of their way to try and get themselves killed, it is the foundation of their religion.

Totally unbiased statement straight from Pope himself.

what movie

They were trying to overthrow the government. They pledged allegiance to European masters instead of to the Emperor or the Shogun.

Two nukes weren't enough. Look at their disgusting, dying, vapid , godless "culture" now

Yeah mang. This was peak counterreformation. Jesuits were wilding. You can't take the friendly cuddly apathetic church of today and read it into history.

Silence by Scorcese

That sounds like it could be a cologne.

Fuck no, all jew religions need to die everywhere that isn't Israel. Fuck your desert jew fiction bullshit.

Christianity wouldn't have made it better.

Silence by Scorsese

>naming your movie like a perfume

Gay.

>
"by Scorcese" isn't part of the title

>All Cathars were united in their hatred of the Catholic Church. They regarded it not as the Church of Jesus Christ but as the church of sinners, the Whore of Babylon. The Pope was held to be the source of all error and priests considered sophists and pharisees. In the opinion of the Cathars, the fall of the Church had taken place in the time of Constantine the Great and Pope Sylvester, when the Church had violated the commandments of Christ by encroaching upon secular power. They denied the sacraments, particularly the baptism of children (since they were too young to believe), but matrimony and Communion as well. Some branches of the movement systematically plundered and defiled churches. In 1225, Cathars burned down a Catholic Chruch in Brescia; in 1235, they killed the Bishop of Mantua. A certain Eon de l'Étoile, head ofa Manichean sect (1143-1148), proclaimed himself the son of God and the Lord of everything on earth. In this capacity, he called upon his followers to plunder churches.

The Cathars hated the cross in particular, considering it to be a symbol of the evil God. As early as about 1000 A.D., a certain Leutard, preaching near Châlons, called for the smashing of crosses and religious images. In the twelfth century, Pierre de Bruys made bonfires of broken crosses, until finally he himself was burned by an angry mob. The Cathars considered churches to be heaps of stones and divine services mere pagan rites. They rejected religious images, denied the intercession of the saints and the efficacy of prayer for the departed. A book by the Dominican inquisitor Rainier Sacconi, himself a heretic for seventeen years, states that the Cathars were not forbidden to plunder churches.

>Although the Cathars rejected the Catholic hierarchy and the sacraments, they had a hierarchy and sacraments of their own.
Page 21 of The Socialist phenomenon, Part 1

>The basic division of the sect was into two groups--the "perfect" (perfecti) and the "faithful" (credenti). The former were few in number (Rainier counted only four thousand in all), but they constituted the select group of the sect leaders. The clergy was drawn from the perfecti, and only they were privy to all the doctrines of the sect; many extreme views that were radically opposed to Christianity were unknown to the ordinary faithful. Only the perfecti were obliged to observe the many prohibitions. In particular, they were not allowed to deny their faith under any circumstances. In case of persecution, they were to accept a martyr's death. The faithful, on the other hand, were allowed to go to regular church for form's sake and, when persecuted, to disavow the faith.
>In compensation for the rigors imposed on the perfecti, their position was far higher than that occupied by Catholic priests. In certain respects, the perfecti were as gods themselves, and the faithful worshiped them accordingly. The faithful were obliged to support the perfecti. One of the important rites of the sect was that of "submission," in which the faithful performed a threefold prostration before the perfecti. The perfecti had to renounce marriage, and they literally did not have the right to touch a woman.
Part 2

They could not possess any property and were obliged to devote their whole lives to service of the sect. They were forbidden to keep a permanent dwelling of any kind and were required to spend their lives in constant travel or to stay in special secret sanctuaries. The consecration of the perfecti, the "consolation" (consolamentum), was the central sacrament of the sect. This rite cannot be compared to anything in the Catholic Church. It combined baptism (or confirmation), ordination, confession, absolution and sometimes supreme unction as well. Only those who received it could count on being freed from the captivity of the body and having their souls returned to their celestial abode.

The majority of the Cathars had no hope of fulfilling the strict commandments that were obligatory for the perfecti and intended, rather, to receive "consolation" on their deathbed. This was called "the good end." The prayer to grant "the good end" under the care of "the good people" (the perfecti) was recited together with the Lord's Prayer.

Sometimes, having received "consolation," a sick person recovered. He was then usually advised to commit suicide (called "endura"). In many cases, "endura" was in fact a condition for receiving "consolation." Not infrequently, the aged or the very young who had received "consolation" were subjected to "endura"--i.e., in effect, murdered. There were various forms of "endura." Most frequently it was by starvation (especially for children, whom the mothers simply stopped suckling); bleeding, hot baths followed by sudden chilling, drinking of liquid mixed with ground glass and strangulation were also used. I. Dollinger, who studied the extant archives of the Inquisition in Toulouse and Carcassonne, writes: "Whoever examines the records of the above-mentioned courts attentively will have no doubt that far more people perished from the 'endura' (some voluntarily, some forcibly) than as a result of the Inquisition's verdicts." (10: p. 226)

>justified

That was the last part from the socialist phenomenon, ran out of space. Acting like The gnostics were in anyway "innocent" and pretending as though the persecution of REAL Christianity and the Truth is equal to the persecution of some cult is rediculous. Between Christianity and other faiths there is the distance of infinity, literally.

>if the tables were turned and it was Buddhism spreading among the common people of Europe.
You forgot to consider that there is only one God, the one to which Christianity is dedicated.

>All Cathars were united in their hatred of the Catholic Church. They regarded it not as the Church of Jesus Christ but as the church of sinners, the Whore of Babylon
So?
>They denied the sacraments, particularly the baptism of children (since they were too young to believe), but matrimony and Communion as well
So? Obviously they aren't Catholics, why would they practice Catholic sacraments?
>Some branches of the movement systematically plundered and defiled churches.
Give me an actual historical source for that. It sounds like projection because that's exactly what the Catholics did to them.
>A certain Eon de l'Étoile, head ofa Manichean sect
Not a Cathar.
>The Cathars hated the cross in particular, considering it to be a symbol of the evil God
So?
>In compensation for the rigors imposed on the perfecti, their position was far higher than that occupied by Catholic priests
In what sense were they "higher". Unlike Catholic priests they lived in absolute poverty.
>and the faithful worshiped them accordingly
no they didn't, that should be obvious given their doctrines.
>The faithful were obliged to support the perfecti.
So? Communities support their clergy. Nothing wrong with that, especially in the case of low maintenance clergy like the perfecti.
>The perfecti had to renounce marriage, and they literally did not have the right to touch a woman.
Why is this a problem?
>more stuff that doesn't matter

What is the point of these posts??
OP is about the Cathars, not the "gnostics" as a whole.

Nips are too racist to accept a gaijin as their savior, they would edit the bible to fit their purposes.

You have to understand that Christianity was incompatible with the Japanese system. How can the Emperor be the most powerful, divine being on earth yet subservient to God?

Way ahead of you pal

A lot of different people do that though. There's a whole genre of literature making the claim that Jesus went to merry ol' england, and that the British are a lost tribe of Israel.

And you're posting on a site dedicated to worship of that culture.

Or that a guy from Puerto Rico right now claims to be his descendant

They sound like the Catholic version of Iconoclasts.

Were the Orthodox as cruel and merciless toward "heretics" and "pagans" as the Catholics were, or did they tend to be less psychopathic than the Papists?

Of course you seriously think any human nation(except european cucks of course) would accept an outsider as their savior?

American blacks are already trying to edit jesus as an african who was oppressed by white edomites or jews and that the jews are the deceivers of the devil holding down the holy people of God the african black race. The funny thing is this theory is true the jew is holding down the black race.

I did not condemn half of those things, and you didn't seem to read the last paragraph. "Sometimes, having received "consolation," a sick person recovered. He was then usually advised to commit suicide (called "endura"). In many cases, "endura" was in fact a condition for receiving "consolation." Not infrequently, the aged or the very young who had received "consolation" were subjected to "endura"--i.e., in effect, murdered. There were various forms of "endura." Most frequently it was by starvation (especially for children, whom the mothers simply stopped suckling); bleeding, hot baths followed by sudden chilling, drinking of liquid mixed with ground glass and strangulation were also used. I. Dollinger, who studied the extant archives of the Inquisition in Toulouse and Carcassonne, writes: "Whoever examines the records of the above-mentioned courts attentively will have no doubt that far more people perished from the 'endura' (some voluntarily, some forcibly) than as a result of the Inquisition's verdicts." (10: p. 226)
This matters the most, if anything. If brutally killing children "doesn't matter", I don't have anything to say to you. Also, Cathars were a part of this mess just like the other Gnostics, so it doesnt matter

The entire point of Catharism was essentially societal suicide. the murder of the entire community, in order to 'free' the souls trapped within the 'Devil's physical creation'

>Dollinger, who studied the extant archives of the Inquisition in Toulouse and Carcassonne
It's propaganda

>The entire point of Catharism was essentially societal suicide. the murder of the entire community, in order to 'free' the souls trapped within the 'Devil's physical creation'
Only for the perfecti. Everyone else lead normal lives.

>It's propaganda
Then we might as well not learn anything from history, if everything written from the perspective of one side about another is somehow 'propaganda'.
>Only for the perfecti. Everyone else lead normal lives. Except no. Marriage and private property was completely abolished, and a redistribution of wealth was attempted. This lead to a situation in which no individual cared for God, nor for salvation, but rather for pleasure. Adultery skyrocketed as no man 'owned' a wife, leading to the aforementioned infanticide. The population of Southern France halved because of this sect in about 4 decadesin which it reigned supreme.

>Marriage and private property was completely abolished
Lol no it wasn't. People got married, owned businesses, and could still be noblemen and aristocrats.
>This lead to a situation in which no individual cared for God, nor for salvation, but rather for pleasure
Propoganda.

If the population ever halved it was because they were massacred by invaders.

This is tedious, here
robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html
Enjoy, it's about socialism throughout the ages.

That's seriously your source for the Cathars? Wow.

Better than no source ;)

Actually no source would be better because then you could just admit ignorance.

With a source one can also admit ignorance by denying the credibility source and then the initial claim made.

The Jew fears the samurai.

Well, the Portuguese bought hundreds of thousands of Japanese slaves from Japanese Christians. Those Japanese slaves ended up all over the world. The Japanese slave women were used as sex slaves even in Europe. That's mainly why Hideyoshi banned Christianity in Japan, not to mention outlawing the Portuguese from entering Japan again.

haven't seen the movie, and don't know the topic well
but I'd avoid conflating all catholic actions together
obviously horrible atrocities have been done in the name of the church, but the jesuits in particular were a real positive force for the natives of south america, at least in terms of protecting them from their eventual destruction by the colonists
but, that of ciourse has nothing to do wtih this, which is ultimately my point, judge individual acts on their individual circumstances

...

DO IT AGAIN TOKUGAWA

ironically enough cologne was one of the centers of the german counterreformation

>LITERALLY drop two nukes on the historic centers of Japanese Christianity
>Bomb those godless nip again america fuck ya XDD

>at least in terms of protecting them from their eventual destruction by the colonists
it was good until the jesuits were expelled. the problem was that the jesuits infantilized the natives and so when they left they were utterly unprepared for self rule and defending themselves. i suppose their culture was indeed preserved compared to other parts of SA, but the transition away from jesuit theocracy in paraguay was very rough

I love how you completely disregarded other Catholic accounts (e.g. contemporary ones) and then single out Shavarevich's book, of all people, as the most authoritative source.

From a Christian point of view? This was wrong and unjustified because the Japanese were killing those spreading the one true word of god, the only objectively correct source of morality and the only means of eternal salvation.

From any other point of view? Yes, because foreign weirdos were convincing poor nobodies that they only source of objective morality and eternal salvation as well as the only authority that truly mattered was their god, whose worship mattered above all else and was to some degree tied to Italian cultural imperialism.

Only a Christian or a liberal democrat really has any sane reason to see what the Japanese did as wrong. Being a Christian I disagree but I understand that from the outside it looks like quite a serious threat if not embraced.

Sure but the jesuits themselves got hung up to dry by Pombal and didn't have many options but to bail

yeah i'm agreeing, i'm just saying that the jesuits didn't (and probably never would have) prepared the natives to rule themselves. it was a well run theocracy akin to the lands ruled by the teutonic knights or knights of st. john in the middle ages

also paraguay was a spanish colony, not a brazilian one. there were jesuit run places in brazil but it was paraguay that became their showcase. brazilian slave raiders destabilized it though so bad the jesuits built fortresses and armed natives to defend themselves

Japan's persecution of Catholics stemmed from Hideyoshi becoming suspicious of Europe's activities in Japan.This got worse over time not because of the amount of converts but because of the actions the converted Japanese did such as forced conversions as well as slavery.Coupled with the slaughter of Oxens and horses which affected his buddhist sentiments.It all went to shit for the catholics the moment the Shimabara rebellion took place.

It was most definitely "Wrong" to persecute people for their religion. However Christians in Europe did the same things to other religions so it's hypocritical to act like Japanese persecution of Christians was a historically notable crime worse than others.

The Japanese did the right thing.

Were Yamato that short back then? It seems the artist exaggerated a little bit, if they were the same size as they are now.

Deliberately seeking martyrdom is a sin according to Canon Law.

Its a mixed bag, there were heresies such as the Bogomils in Bulgaria and the Paulicians in the Eastern Roman Empire, and of course the Iconoclast movement. The Paulicians in particular had their little statelet destroyed by the Imperial army, but they were allied with the Caliphate and waged open warfare against the Empire. A lot of times Heresies were in open warfare with the neighboring powers, which iirc is what caused the Crusade against the Cathars. Its important not to cast any particular side as bad or good, and a lot of times the heresies did believe some really crazy stuff that needed to be stopped. Except the Hussites who did literally nothing wrong.
t. Orthodox Christian

The japanese were absolutely right to want to halt christian influence in their territory. That they preserved their religion and culture from abrahamic poison is laudable.

You're right but wrong because it's a film about individuals.