Who is more enlightened about the true nature of the world: historians or philosophers?

Who is more enlightened about the true nature of the world: historians or philosophers?

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Historians. Philosophers are useless
But scientists trump them both

True historians are philosophers
True scientists are philosophers
Both fields are a subset of philosophy

>Scienceshits
Biggest retards on earth
Most historians are knowledgeable of philosophy

most philosophers are historians as well


philosophers win this one

nah, see . As a history major I'm always writing about philosophy or theology of various historical figures but with the added bonus of learning of the world they inhabited.

None. In the end diry, uneducated barbarian always wins.

historians
>writing about the great changes wrought by orators

philosophers
>autistic screeching about orators getting all the hot young boi pucci

when will Veeky Forums learn the queen of all the arts?

how can you argue this and still not see how similar and closely knit they are?

as for science those were called natural philosophy at one point.

How can one write philosophy, history, or even science without knowing the artful composition of discourse?

Rhetoric's handmaidens may be closely knit to her, but she merely tolerates their presence with grace and indulgence.

Scientists study what is relevant and important to advancing humanity. Historians study events that have already occurred and are limited to humans, this is irrelevant and useless.

>muh objective religion
lizardbrains pls go

What's your point?

Insisting on the supremacy of rhetoric over the other disciplines of knowledge.

Define "relevent" define "important" define "advancing"

Let's take the study of electricity for example. Many things we use today run on electricity and it was the studies of individuals like Michael Faraday that allowed this.
Science is objectively more useful

>all dem science folk using dat SOCRATIC method

>all these either/or arguments
You do realize that History, Philosophy, and Science all occupy relevant niches and summarily compose our conception of reality, right?

Without History, we forget who we are and squander the wisdom gleaned from past experience;

without Philosophy, we lack direction, motivation, and focus;

without Science, we lack comprehension of our universe and a means of human advancement.

These three disciplines optimally coexist in a complimentary fashion for the net betterment of western civilization.

>Without History, we forget who we are and squander the wisdom gleaned from past experience;
Useless argument. And what 'wisdom gleaned from the past'?
Since when has anyone found Napoleon's exploits to be useful?

>Since when has anyone found Napoleon's exploits to be useful?
Napoleonic strategy is still taught at every military academy on the face of the earth.

>Useless argument.
Disregarded. Nationalism cannot exist without History.

buddhas

>Since when has anyone found Napoleon's exploits to be useful?
go to a fucking military college
it's not anyones fault but yours that youre naive and presume great intellect

Nationalism is pointless. Why is it important to know about shit like Anglo-Saxons just because "muh identity". It is literally never useful in everyday life or for advancement.

[Citation needed]

>West Point and any army officer's academy worth its weight in salt still teaches Jackson's 1862 Valley Campaign
>fought using Napoleonic strategy over 150 fucking years ago
>citation needed xDDD!!!! ! !
please just fucking kill yourself

"Robert Browning was a real philosopher. Goethe was as profound a thinker as Kant.

The greatest historian should be a great moralist. A great historian must be a man of imagination. He must possess the power to marshal what is dead so that before our eyes it lives again. He must possess knowledge. He must possess that without which knowledge is of so little use, wisdom. What he brings from the charnel-house he must use with such potent wizardry that we shall see the life that was and not the death that is. For remember that the past was life just as much as the present is life. The true historian will bring the past before our eyes as if it were the present. Gorgeous in our sight will rise the splendor of dead cities. Dead poets shall sing to us the deeds of men of might and the love and the beauty of women. Along ancient trade-routes, across the world's waste spaces, the caravans shall move; and the admirals of uncharted seas shall furrow the oceans with their lonely prows. Beyond the dim centuries we shall see the banners float above armed hosts. We shall see conquerors riding forward to victories that have changed the course of time. We shall listen to the prophecies of forgotten seers. Ours shall be the dreams of dreamers who dreamed greatly, who saw in their vision peaks so lofty that never yet have they been reached by the sons and daughters of men. We shall see the dancing girls of Memphis. The scent of the flowers in the Hanging Gardens of Babylon will be heavy to our senses. We shall sit at feast with the kings of Nineveh when they drink from ivory and gold. For us the war-horns of King Olaf shall wail across the flood, and the harps sound high at festivals in forgotten halls. We shall know the valor of the two-sworded Samurai. The agony of the galley-slaves shall be ours, and the rejoicing when the wicked are brought low."

westpoint.edu/history/sitepages/napoleonic wars.aspx

>he still has not refuted anything

>Nationalism is pointless.
Really makes you (((think))).

>.gif of pretty girl laughing

also just in case you weren't fully convinced of how stupid you are
westpoint.edu/history/sitepages/napoleonic wars.aspx

...

>Scientists study what is relevant and important to advancing humanity.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH. Most scietnist just wagecuck or learn how to screw over humanity in the name of profit.
>. Historians study events that have already occurred and are limited to humans
historians study the nature of reality and investigate as to why things are. Also historians aren't politically retarded because they know what events actually occurred in the past so no one can pull the wool over their eyes.

That's not nationalism.

Philosophers are people recording their concurrent social values, then claiming credit for them
there hasn't been a single philosopher the last 500 years that in any way influenced the path humanity took

even with outdated tactics and in poor strategic positions a capable general with good knowledge of the terrain and his enemies can win multiple battles/campaigns and even turn the tide of a war. Napoleon's Italian campaign and the Valley campaign are perfect examples of this. they validated Sun Tzu's adages about "knowing thyself and knowing thine enemy" being the concoction required to win one-hundred campaigns.

they're taught to remind cadets at military academies that even if you have the best tech and nicest guns and biggest armies, you are not guaranteed victory. and vice versa -- you can secure victory from the jaws of defeat if you know the tendencies of your opponent and know the terrain, regardless of the size of your forces and their technology.

>historians study the nature of reality
>studying the living conditions of 13th century Europe is the same as studying the nature of reality

Why is this?

but thats not what philosophers are
just because a lot of people bill themselves as philosphers to sell shitty books doesn't change the fact that people who truly foray into realms of thought that have not yet been fully fleshed out make great leaps for all of us even if they aren't famous, rich or freuently seen in history

because humanity is one massive organism
it may be guided by it's leading "head" but will always be hindered by its remaining "failing organs" that do the majority of the work and a majority of the expeirencing

>studying the living conditions of 13th century Europe is the same as studying the nature of reality
That's a false equivalence, though studying seemingly innocuous historical details does aid us in composing a more comprehensive understanding of our reality.

Studying the nature of reality is studying concepts such as time, space and gravity and how they are useful for many applications. Science is objectively more useful than history. All technology is a product of science. The study of quantum mechanics has enabled the use of semiconductors and production of transistors leading to microprocessors etc.
I have never found history useful, but am pleased with science when i can go and get modern medicine or get treated by doctors

science is a-posteriori to the humanities
you love you technological achievments but don't understand there is a carefully formed cultural atmosphere that enables and supports these advancements that has been set up by the humanities

I never understood who these posts are trying to impress. You'd just look like a fool for saying shit like this in real life. You sound like you're 15 and just picked up a Barnes N Noble book on biology for $5 that you'll never finish

You seem to have a very narrow perception of History. Do you deny that the past significantly effects the present? Even the scientists you deify understood its importance. Just because your computer doesn't run on History doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

The past has influenced the present, but why is it useful to know about it?
>carefully formed cultural atmosphere
Hahaha no

It's so pathetic seeing you people trying to defend the fact you spent 3/4 years studying history degree which gives you no useful skills

>hahaha no
hahaha yes

>"history is important because studying the past stops us repeating the same mistakes"

>"history is important because studying the past stops us repeating the same mistakes"
This is true.

Never said that

>le science is important so I can understand why Im overweight

during the most recent outreak of ebola, locals, people who ought to understand it better because they are proximally close and should be able to utilize technology available exeperienced horrible infection rates due to a misunderstanding of medical practices (i.e. handling rotting ebola corpses and not bathing)
you better have a response better than "Hahaha no" if you expect people to keep talking to you m8

Yeah well I'll try not to get stabbed by angry senators for future reference

Stop using the internet, a product of scientific study.
Meanwhile I'll stop living in a recreation of a 9th century village in France, a product of historical study

b8ing Veeky Forums is just too easy, isn't it?

>Stop using the internet, a product of scientific study.
>Meanwhile I'll stop living in a recreation of a 9th century village in France, a product of historical study
God, this is embarrassing.

Why would anyone take what an American president has to say seriously when people like Bush, Obama, and Trump can get into that position.

>a product of scientific study
History is also a product of scientific study. Like I said, you're not impressing anyone. You don't sound smart at all. You don't sound educated, but in fact the exact opposite.

A "scientist" and historian are two separate branches of intellectual pursuits, and one would not exist without the other. Quit being retarded, please

People tend to recoil when they learn they wasted 3 years of their life

What country are you from? Just curious so I can shit on it for no reason. Especially people I know were more educated and intelligent than I will ever be

>they know what events actually occurred in the past
That would be nice if it were actually possible. What a naive view of history. Historians can only gain an approximation of "what actually happened."

>You don't sound educated, but in fact the exact opposite
Haha it's come to this. Oh you got me good

Then head over to Veeky Forums and inform them that String Theory has been invalidated and impacts no one.

>Historians can only gain an approximation of "what actually happened."
Kinda like physicists.

Hey pal, i never said history wasn't fun. It's just not useful for the advancement of mankind

Everybody pumps up their pursuits as the most beautiful, important, etc. pursuits of humanity (art, history, mathematics, science, music, philosophy, etc. etc. etc.)

How do we know which pursuit is truly THE most important?

Im sure Stephen Hawking or whoever you cum to at night will be real impressed at your ginormous ego, until he realizes you're actually just a wanna-be scientist

>It's just not useful for the advancement of mankind
It's useful if you want to maintain any sort of continuity. Cultural identity is precious to many people (including you, to a degree).

>How do we know which pursuit is truly THE most important?
Roshambo

>useful skills
>t. wagecuck

>will be real impressed at your ginormous ego, until he realizes you're actually just a wanna-be scientist
This is literally too easy. user please

>Report submitted! This window will close in 3 seconds...

No one. There is no "nature of the world" implicit in the world itself.

I agree. Roshambo is the most important human pursuit.

You seem to imply that the "world itself" can be defined, so it must have some specific properties i.e. a "nature"

Good job!

It's a confusion of language; the literal term "nature" maps to many different ideas. I took it to be a more philosophical question. There is a literal mechanism by which things happen and interact, but there is no greater philosophical "nature of the world."

>it's another people don't realize all knowledge is important episode

There is plenty of trivial knowledge that isn't important, such as the fact that the Harry Potter series is composed of 1,084,170 words.

Yup

Why

This is a nonsensical question.
Out of the two only historians are forced to make the assumption that there even IS a true nature of the world to begin with. Philosophers are not bound by this.

>there hasn't been a single philosopher the last 500 years that in any way influenced the path humanity took
Assuming reality is true, it would be impossible for ANYONE - historian, philosopher or otherwise - to exist without influencing the course of history.
Granted, these changes may be very small and insignificant over small periods of time. But we all know that small changes over large amounts of time will have huge consequences (butterfly effect).

Holy shit bill nye fags are literal insects

An "enlightened" man is both.

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