Protestant work ethic

>protestant work ethic
>reject salvation by works

lmao explain this one
its like they're all subconsciously compensating

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>If a man will not work, neither let him eat.

>All of your righteousness is as filthy rags to a holy God.

It's not difficult, papist. Try to think for yourself, for once.

>not having read Weber and posting something this retarded

Dude I'm a recovering Catholic, and I got to say you are missing the point of our faith

I dont get calvinists, if everything is predetermined then why bother?

Orthodox here, I think the point of the "protestant work ethic" meme is that protestants, by having divorced hard work and holiness, are hard workers because they just consider it something you do naturally whereas Catholics treat it as some kind of special big deal and thus de-normalize it?

I could be mistaken. Either way it's just a meme and Weber is overrated.

>salvation by works
>salvation
It's right there my larpfriend

>O'm a catholic
Right. Deus Vult xDD

Because the holy spirit works in them. If you ever read the bible you will understand.

>Because the holy spirit works in them. If you ever read the bible you will understand.
oh so they still do what the bible tells them but pretend its because they are predetermined to do it, not because of their own free will

basically they are morons

>oh so they still do what the bible tells them
Well yeah. They just don't think it contributes to their salvation.

>basically they are morons
No idea what you are talking about. I will assume you want to shit on them for cathlarping but have no legitimate criticism

>salvation by works
That's never been a doctrine by any church ever. Unless you buy into Pelagian nonsense.

I do want to shit on them because the concept that there is no free will and we are completely controlled by god is just ridiculous on every level

Well I agree with one of those statements lol.
But fact of the matter is that that's what the bible says. He hardens the hearts of those he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy.

>Bro, like Protestants have special work ethics that's why their nations are superior.
What is France in that time?

>France
>work ethic
wat

They were and are an advanced nation.

No doubt

Also Austria and most of Germany are catholic

Nah only the south. In total numbers at least until 17 million predominantly protestants got into socialism protestants were a fairly large majoroty

Nobody who actually read Weber would ever use the protestant ethic as a defense of protestantism. Weber's whole schtick was that proddies convinced themselves that being ruthless exploiters with no regards to ethics or comforts or charity was the reason why northern europe accumulated enough capital to *help* start the industrial revolution.

This proddie thing is so cringey. Like soyboy. How old (mentally) are you that you think posting condescending insults will make you look cool?

Bavaria is catholic, Brandenburg is protestant, the rest are mixed, but yeah the protestants were majority before they became atheists. Same in switzerland and netherlands, formerly proestant, now catholics are majority.

I guess it's just shows how much of a meme protestantism is.

>proddie
>condescending insults
Are you fucking kidding me? Do you cringe every time you read goy/burger/bong/etc too? How thin skinned are you even?

No. bong is banter, proddie is spite

You've obviously never been to a catholic area if you think they are any less secular than protestants

Where did you get a catholic majority in netherlands from?

Protestant Work Ethic is just shorthand for "we want to practice usury and also not pay money to the Catholic Church."

>the epithets that don't refer to me and I might wanna use are banter, those that do refer to me are spite

Actually it's more like "we want to speculate to the absolute worst possible level without repercussions, we want charity to be considered criminal, we have to throw all our money into investment because we're not allowed to use it for anything else". Weber's insights into the rationalization of the economic process basically depict protestantism as profit obsessed psychopathy, he's really rather mean to them.

On the other hand, Catholics prefer the sort of training which the humanistic Gymnasium affords.

Among journeymen, in other words, the Catholics show a stronger propensity to remain in their crafts, that is they more often become master craftsmen, whereas the Protestants are attracted to a larger extent into the factories in order to fill the upper ranks of skilled labour and administrative positions.

The explanation of these cases is undoubtedly that the mental and spiritual peculiarities acquired from the environment, here the type of education favoured by the religious atmosphere of the home community and the parental home, have determined the choice of occupation, and through it the professional career.

The most important opponent with which the spirit of capitalism, in the sense of a definite standard of life claiming ethical sanction, has had to struggle, was that type of attitude and reaction to new situations which we may designate as traditionalism.

What is meant can again best be explained by means of an example. The type of backward traditional form of labour is today very often exemplified by women workers, especially unmarried ones. An almost universal complaint of employers of girls, for instance German girls, is that they are almost entirely unable and unwilling to give up methods of work inherited or once learned in favour of more efficient ones, to adapt themselves to new methods, to learn and to concentrate their intelligence, or even to use it at all. Explanations of the possibility of making work easier, above all more profitable to themselves, generally encounter a complete lack of understanding. Increases of piece-rates are without avail against the stone wall of habit. In general it is otherwise, and that is a point of no little importance from our view-point, only with girls having a specifically religious, especially a Pietistic, background.

The dogma Deo placere vix potest which was incorporated into the canon law and applied to the activities of the merchant, and which at that time (like the passage in the gospel about interest) was considered genuine, as well as St. Thomas’s characterization of the desire for gain as turpitudo (which term even included unavoidable and hence ethically justified profit-making), already contained a high degree of concession on the part of the Catholic doctrine to the financial powers with which the Church had such intimate political relations in the Italian cities, as compared with the much more radically anti-chrematistic views of comparatively wide circles. But even where the doctrine was still better accommodated to the facts, as for instance with Anthony of Florence, the feeling was never quite overcome, that activity directed to acquisition for its own sake was at bottom a pudendum which was to be tolerated only because of the unalterable necessities of life in this world.

Their life-work was, so long as they clung to the tradition of the Church, at best something morally indifferent. It was tolerated, but was still, even if only on account of the continual danger of collision with the Church’s doctrine on usury, somewhat dangerous to salvation. Quite considerable sums, as the sources show, went at the death of rich people to religious institutions as conscience money, at times even back to former debtors as usura which had been unjustly taken from them. It was otherwise, along with heretical and other tendencies looked upon with disapproval, only in those parts of the commercial aristocracy which were already emancipated from the tradition.

Christian asceticism, at first fleeing from the world into solitude, had already ruled the world which it had renounced from the monastery and through the Church. But it had, on the whole, left the naturally spontaneous character of daily life in the world untouched. Now it strode into the market-place of life, slammed the door of the monastery behind it, and undertook to penetrate just that daily routine of life with its methodicalness, to fashion it into a life in the world, but neither of nor for this world.

"the dull mind rises to truth through that which is material"

>You've obviously never been to a catholic area if you think they are any less secular than protestants
secular=/=atheist

>Where did you get a catholic majority in netherlands from?
wikipedia

>Roman Catholic (23.7%)
>Dutch Reformed Church[a] (6.5%)
>Protestant Church in the Netherlands[a] (5.7%)
>Reformed Churches in the Netherlands[a] (3.3%)

When did you realize Protestant "work ethic" is just destroying the environment and exploiting fellow human beings in the name of personal material profit?

Because they believe they're predestined to be the Elect, and nothing they can do will cause their status to be diminished.

It's part of why Protestant countries were so much more successful than Catholic ones.

Of course the Catholic retard hates.

There were millions of French protestants.

>if everything is predetermined then why bother
To confirm to yourself that you are chosen to receive god's love in riches and success and aren't one of the poor who will not only suffer in life but also in eternal damnation in hell.

>why bother
i'm rich faggot

It was originally calvinist work ethic where the elect who have true faith will be the morally upstanding few of society

It was originally about Weber's beloved mommy and his auntie and how he liked them better than his hedonist daddy.

>Do you cringe every time you read goy/burger/bong/etc too?

Um, most people who didn't start coming here in 14 and later do cringe every time they see those.

It's basically like this:
Catholics view faith and good works as two separate, but necessary components of salvation. Good works without faith are meaningless and faith without good works is hypocritical. Likewise, salvation is a combination of efficacious grace (we are saved because God wants us to be saved) and free will (we are saved because we choose whether to be saved).

Protestants, on the other hand, think that faith is the only necessary element of salvation, and good works are merely a fruit of true faith. They hold a very Augustinian interpretation of the Catholic view on good works; they think that to assume works (which are infinitely small compared to God's acts) can affect whether you are saved is the height of prideful arrogance, implying that your actions can override God's will. As a result, they have a far greater emphasis on efficacious grace saving people than free will.

Not by the time the Protestant work ethic meme got started :^)

>It's part of why Protestant countries were so much more successful than Catholic ones.

What are those Protestant countries? UK, Netherlands? Prussia? I wouldn't call them "so much more successful" than France, Austria, Spain, or Italy.

Seventh Day Adventist Protestants also believe that faith and works are both necessary components for righteousness

someone who knows more than me help me: would you say Canada, Germany is more catholic or protestant dominated? Culturally, politically, whatever, doesn't have to be accurate, just want a general feel. What about US? My gut tells me more protestant, but with the freedom being their basic motto, would saying it's a protestant nation be accurate??

Doesn't that go against basic principles of Christianity? That everyone can be saved if they believe and (in the way I was taught about it) if they aren't too shitty during their time here? If some are predestined to hell or to heaven, why bother evangelizing, for example? I don't understand.

USA: Historically Protestant. The first 100 years of their history it was seen as suspect to be Roman Catholic. In recent history Catholicism has grown exponentially where Puritanism used to reign. See Massachusetts, a Puritan/Protestant state which is now majority Catholic.

North East: Was entirely Puritan / Episcopalian / Mainline Protestant

Midwest: Methodist and Baptist. The Methodists aggressively settled the West.

Northern West: Lutheran -- German Immigration

South: Baptist / Episcopalian

Roman Catholicism has invaded all territory though. Outside the South it's usually the biggest single denomination, though total Protestant % remains dominant in just about every state.

Canada: Eastern French Canada is dominant Catholic. Western Anglo-Canada is dominant Anglican / Protestant with a dash of Catholisism. Though the Church is generally weak in Canada.

Germany: Divided Cath/Prot. Luther's area was dominantly Lutheran and the South (if I remember correctly) held Catholic. It goes between 60-40 Cath/Prot to sometimes 50/50

>Elect will got Heaven
>You know you're elect if you prosper and see the fruits of your labour
>People work hard for salvation even though they still believe that everything is predestined... just in case

Yes Calvinism is somewhat silly but it really did create a strong work ethic. Papist slave mentality just can't compete.

t. Dirty Protty Lutheran that rejects calvinism

Wtf is that mitre and cape, it looks like a cheap Halloween costume. What denomination is this from?

Church of England. Guy is 2nd highest in charge and probably the next Archbishop of Canterbury. Those are not official vestments though, it was some sort of laid back event he was at.

Are you 14?

>The 5 solae of Protestantism
—Soli Deo gloria
—Sola gratia
—Solo Christo
—Sola fide
—Sola scriptura
We were created to glorify God by conforming to His righteous standard of character; fallen into sin, we were spared by grace alone in Christ, and we accept this gift freely by way of faith, so that we can have our fallen character reformed, and we know all of this truth by way of the word, upon which we can navigate through falsehood.

We are justified in Christ by faith alone, and by faith in Christ we have our characters transformed as we begin to emulate His character more & more – we are to reflect righteousness to the world around us and conform to the path of Jesus.
The wages of sin is death and only death can atone for the debt of sin – Jesus' perfect sacrifice alone can pay off this debt, no flawed work from out own hands can meet the requirements – only the blood of Christ.
Having accept His sacrifice by faith, we yearn to be more & more like Christ, and so, "good works" are derivative of faith, they are the fruits of genuine faith.

>Bible lectures from Genesis-Revelation
youtube.com/playlist?list=PL95B1BB23B7A3C795
>Comprehensive history of the Reformation.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF170B126002E7CB0

Grow a spine, proddie

Germany was, pre-WW2, rather dominated by protestants, spread all around (except bavaria). North germany and prussia especially were staunchly protestant. The soviets then killed prussia and secularized east germany successfully. Old west germany was rather catholic dominated, while germany now is roughly equally parted in catholics, protestants and atheists.

Modern politics are hardly influenced by religion. Catholics are voting center-right over center left compared to protestants by about 10% difference, but both vote hard right and hard left about equally. Same for atheists.

As for economy: hard to say. Before the 19th century everything was so decentralized it's hard to argue for anything clear, though the prosperous hanse cities for instance were always protestant. In the 19th century, we've had notable economic booms in the catholic rhineland (but that's because of the coal there), protestant prussia and mixed württemberg (though I think the protestant areas were more succesful there.) Post-WW2 there's been a boom in catholic bavaria, post-cold-war the rhineland has become a rust belt and many others are becoming soft shitholes, notable exceptions bavaria, baden-württemberg, hessen and saxony. So trying to pin economic success to confession after the 19th century makes little sense, but there was a certain protestant advantage before that.

They don't believe that works are necessary for justification (which only comes by way of faith), but accept that if you possess genuine faith, works will be the natural consequence of your conversion – this is where the process of sanctification comes into play as you consciously choose to orient your whole being toward conforming to God's standard, which is only possible by way of prayer & faith in Christ.
We weren't saved from sin so that we can keep sinning, we were saved from the consequences of sin (death) so that we could, in Christ, sin no more. We follow His commandments not because it gives us merit, but rather because we love God and desire to reflect Jesus' character.
In John 5:14 after the man in Bethesda believed on Jesus and was healed, Jesus said unto him, “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” – in John 8:11 when Jesus saves the adulterous woman from the judgment of death at the hands of the angry mob and religious authority, He commands her saying, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” Not only this, but it is promised in 1 Corinthians 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” – we possess freewill, and so, sin is always a choice, we will never be tempted into sinning beyond the point at which we are unable to bear it – we are always able to choose the way of Christ, and in Him, overcome our desire to sin. To do this we must be willing to part with the love of the world, we must reject the invented systems of human culture and yield entirely upon the Word of God – only through constant study and prayer will we be able to shed off our temporal lusts and align with the righteous character of Christ.

>Do you cringe every time you read goy/burger/bong/etc too?

Um, everyone who started coming here before '14 does.

>The soviets then killed prussia and secularized east germany successfully
How did the soviets secularize the rest of protestant europe so successfully?

Yup. That's /int/ speak and/or ex-redditor that didn't fit into reddit but doesn't just use the Veeky Forums way of appending -fag to everything and instead brings in pejoratives from outside.

That’s just western culture, not necesarilly soviet influence
Though I’m not sure they were solely responsible, they were unable to do that to Poland, and aren’t the older Russian generations quite religious?

How do Catholics reconcile the necessity of good works with the fact that Jesus promised a crucified thief that he'd be with him in paradise?

Not protestant or Catholic so I have no stake in this, just curious.

Because if you truly repent your sins and respect God then you can be forgiven and accepted into His kingdom.


40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."


Good works, I believe, may also have come from St Augustine, though I’m not sure

doesnt being good and doing good come from having faith in the first place? if you have faith, wont that compel you to do good? you cant really believe in the message of christ and rape and murder and go to heaven because you 'just' believe, despite contradicting your belief

i dont know, im not prod-catholic either so im not really in on the debate, but form afar catholics seem more logical

All the historical Protestant figures believed that by faith alone we are justified, by faith we consent that Christ come into our lives & change us, and if this faith was actually genuine then good works would manifest as you'd be a changed person. "Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God’s holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ’s justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian’s rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ’s disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ’s righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man’s temper and conduct." - Matthew Henry 17th century commentaries

The Christian is not to do good works as a matter of gaining merit or doing it merely because they're told, they're to be transformed by their relationship with Christ, and, as a matter of consequence behave more Christlike.

Catholics consider doing the pilgrimages/feasts/festivals & paying indulgences as "good works" which can mitigate the debt of sin (even though 2 Corinthians 12:9 "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." confirms that Christ's sacrifice (which we accept by faith) is enough to atone for the debt.

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF170B126002E7CB0

When you see costumes like this worn by public figures it can often be decoded as "I hope they don't notice how much money I've embezzled from them"

>All the historical Protestant figures believed that by faith alone we are justified, by faith we consent that Christ come into our lives & change us, and if this faith was actually genuine then good works would manifest as you'd be a changed person
so then what's the difference....

Splitting hairs