How do the Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations compare to each other over the course of history?

>qt women
Who cares? Let migrants go to Argentina, Colombia and Venezuela. I don't want this country filled with more retards.
I'm compiling stuff of each period, be patient.

cont:

So, the Classic period is also the height of Maya civilization, but I really don't know too much about maya history or key events in this time period for them, or about maya society. I can tell you that there is no single "Maya empire": The Maya existed as seperate city-states and kingdoms ruled by familial dynasties. That being saiid, there was a recent LIDAR fiinding that showed huge suburban sprawls of the sort of "outer" parts of cities I mentioned before all between tthe spaces between a lot of maya cities. That begs the question: If these were separate city states that could war and governed themselves differently, which city did these sprawls between cities go into? We don't know. I also know that there were complex political relationshps between city states and kingdoms, and that sometimes a particular dynasty had influence over other ones thanks to webs of family connections and political marriages and such. They, like the Epi-olmec, also had a true wriitten language (There's two sets of gylpyhs, one of which is pictograph like hieroglyphs, but the other has each part of a given glpyh represent a spoken sound and then they coombine to form a single word/larger glyph, which is just a normal witten language with fancy looking words/characters) is and it's the only mesoamerican true written language we have fully deciphered.

As I said before, around 900 AD, there was a collapse in Maya society. Shitty TV shows and documentaries make it out to be this mysterious, ootherworldy thing where all the maya just vanished, which is bullshit: It was a combination of political instability and warring combined with climate/envoriemtnal issues which led to sites being abandoned. The maya didn't dissapear, but relocated. In the post classic, for instance, there were many maya cit-states in the northern part of the Yucatan, with the single largest Maya political state, the League of Mayapan, existing then; but overall it was a decline for them.

5/?

>muh complex Native American history
Sorry user they’re just shitskins

i'm fallinf aasleep at my keyboard so more will hav eto wait til tommorow.

You say shitskin but brown is also the colour of the earth so fertileskin or lifeskin is more appropriate.

Okay Eurangutang

So were Egyptians, Semites, Indians and to a degree Persians and Greeks. Whites are shit.

thanks m8

very interesting read; keep up the good work

>Sorry user they’re just shitskins

So like eveyr culture that indepdeently invented civilization other then the chiinese?

Just woke up, will contiinue where I left off in a 30 mins to an hour

Some stuff I forgot to mention about Teotihaucan to stress how influential it was is that it was the source of the Talud-tablero architecture for pyramids, which became nigh universal across the region from that pointt on, and you can also see a lot of artistic/architectural influence from it both in the Maya region and the rest of Mesoamerica (except maybe west) When I look at teotihaucan art, it very much sort of looks like a common ancestor to both Aztec and maya art motifs

Before I move into the post-classic, I should note that while I only really mentioned Teotihaucan an an overview of the maya, there were many other city-states and kingdoms around the non-maya parts in this period too: I can't tell you, say, the exact complexity of their administrative systems/goverment, social economics, etc, (I WILL be able to for the Aztecs, though); but Mesoamerica during this period was essentially universally urban and state based, and I would expect that basically any moderate to major city/political state in the region during the classic period was at least comparable to early-mid bronze age cultures in eurasia in most of those regards

Some other notable classic cities include: Cholua, which had actually been occupied for thousands of years but grew to a city of importance in around 600ad. It would get conquered somewhat often over the centuries, but by the postclassic would become a site of huge religious importance, basically a mesoamerica mecca, and the largest human monument in the world, the great pyramid of Cholula, was here as well.; El Tajin similar to cholula, was a place that had been long inhabiated and grew to an important city in the mid-classic. It was located in the gulf region and had influence throughout that part of it. I can't tell you much about it beyond that though; and Monte Alban, which I mentioned before, reached it's height in this period, and was the center of Zapotec power in the Oaxcaca region

6/?

This.

Mesoamerica is a step ahead of northern Europe considering they independently invented civilization (inb4 hurr wasn't le reel civulisation cause human sakrifyce or something) instead of having to be dragged into it kicking and screaming by the Romans.

cont:

So the Maya collapse in 900AD and the fall of Teotihaucan around the same time, mark the end of the classic period. Other cities/states fell or declined around the same time: Monte Alban lost it's dominance, for instance

As I alluded to previously, in the Maya region, this wasn't a "mysterious disappearance" so much as instability caused by political shit that led to warring combined with climate issues, and as mentioned, populations simply shifted. But, in retrospect, it did signal the end of Maya preeminence and most of the mesoamerica-wide important historical stuff happens to the west

The postclassic is generally split into the Early postclassic, from 900AD to 1200AD, and the Late postclassic, which is from 1200AD to 1519, with the split representing Toltec dominance for early and Aztec for late; though is is sort of misleading for a few reasons. I actually don't know too much about the early postclassic, but as mentioned, it was characterized by Toltec rule according to the Aztecs, which is what the big issue is:

Most of our information about toltec history comes from Aztec sources, and it's very hard to figure out what's actual recorded history, what's myth, or what's the intentional fudging of the two as propaganda: The Aztecs viewed the Toltecs are their precursors: They legitimatized their rule by presenting themselves as Toltec heirs, since the Toltecs were looked at much the way we look at ancient Greece, as a birthplace of culture, art, and intellectualism, so the Aztecs had an impetus to twist around details, and indeed, Itzcoatl (who was the king) of Tenochtitlan when it allied with Tlacopan and Texcoco and overthrew the Tepanecs, which was the formation of the "Aztec empire") had all the books burnt documenting Mexica (who are what most things are talking about when they are talking about aztec society) history, and crafted a new history emphasizing their alleged toltec origins

7/?

Cont:

Most Aztec accounts involving the Toltecs tell of them being led (or founded by, or their last ruler being: It's muddy) by Ce Acatl Topiltzin, who is identified with/as Quetzalcoatl, and elements of his life became intertwined and indistinguishable with legends about the god: If you've ever heard that Quetzalcoatl didn't approve of Human sacrifices or that he left out to sea and promise to return one day, both of those are stuff that originated in Topiltzin stories that got attached to Quetzalcoatl or vis versa.. It's unlikely this is all just made up: The information we have about Topiltzin, even if it varies a bit and some are mutually exclusive, are very specific and detailed, as are other Aztec myths of toltec stuff, such as where and when he was born, conquests in the yucatan (which would make sense, see below) etc

Currently, people associate the Toltecs with the site of Tula. Tula is interesting, because some of the structures and how they are lined out is near identical to stuff at the postclassic maya site of Chichen Itza, which would sort of make sense if Tula was indeed the site of a huge influential power like Teotihaucan before then and the Aztecs after them. But AFAIK, if Tula was actually the site of the culture the Aztecs saw as the Toltecs isn't clear: They called lots of places "tollan", which is how they refereed to the seat of toltec power: Tula was one of them, but so was Cholula and others, and a lot of researchers (including some of the most acclaimed) dispute the idea that the Toltecs, or whatever the Aztecs saw of as them, were massively influential on the scale as either of the other two I just mentioned. I simply don't know enough about the Toltecs or early postclassic to tell you WHY, especially given how much other stuff matches up as I said above with the tula/chichen itza connection, but I'm simply not informed enough

8/?

You wouldn't be Michael E Smith would you? Because I'm reading your book "The Aztecs" in the Blackwell Publishing series "The Peoples of America" and while I'm only at Chapter 2 I like what I've read so far. You're doing good in this thread, keep it up.

Hue, no. Micheal Smith is like the top Mesoamerican archaeologist, he's the one I was alluding to with the "including some of the most acclaimed" line in that post.

I'm just a guy who is does a lot of reading online about the region. Unfortunately i'm too poor and don't live close enough to anywhere that has good programs for it to actually get a formal education on it or to turn it into a career.

Ah, I see. A shame. You hear about how various celebrities occasionally browse Veeky Forums, and while Michael E Smith is not exactly a "celebrity" in the traditional sense, I like the idea that he and other major historians can sometimes be found posting here or in other boards. Do you think that happens sometimes, if only for a laugh?

I think of all of the sorts of important people likely to browse Veeky Forums, historinas are probably the least likely, especially ones in there 50's and 60's like him.

I do know though that there's a mesoameriboo who makes really good art of historiaccly accurate attire and hair styles oof various mesoamerican cultures on Deviantart who browses here, pic related (I don't think he'll mind me saying that since he mentioned it himself at one point)

I cannot avoid thinking about nancul when I see those designs I don't know why kek

It was mentioned to be among the weapons of the Tzutujils. Let me look exactly what it says it's in a colonial document.

I wanted to get one last post out before I headed to bed but i'm too tired.

There will probably be another 3-4 posts in the overview Mesoamerican history, and then 1 post comparing what I mentioned between mesoamerica and the andes, and then another 3-4 posts going into detail about the AZtecs in terms of social, economic, military, and political complexity and other facets of their society to compare them to Old World culture since the OP also asked about that.

did you ever find ttis

bump

It's in Fuentes y Guzman vol 2 pg 15 of his Recordacion de Florida. I remembered wrong it's not actually described as a disc, but obsidian that was thrown at enemies that contained poison. I thought a disc due to it being easier to throw. Another possibility is maybe small throwing knives.

Holy shit is what /his was suppose to be?

That's because I am baiting pols and making them busy so they don't spam every thread for (You)s.

How? This thread has few replies, and legitimate discussion on Mesoamerican societies doesn't really attract the worst sort of /pol/ posters. Also, if the periodic Aztec and Mexico threads on /pol/ are to be believed, most /pol/lacks actually have a somewhat mixed few of this subject that is more nuanced than "hue, shitskins, amiright?"

Cont:

Moving away from the Toltecs, and back to the Oaxcaca region (with the disclaimer that i'm nott too informed on it):

Basically, during the classic period, the Oaxaca region was mostly characterized by Zapotec (which were more around the eastern half of the Oaxaca region). dominance However, moving into the postclassic, my understanding is that the Mixtecs (which were more towards the western half) became more dominant, and many Zapotecs cities (eg: monte alban & mitla, see pic) got invaded by the Mixtec. Now, it's important to note here that "Zapotec" and "Mixtec" aren't specific political states: They are cultures/ethnicity, and there were many different cities and kingdoms of each with their own separate governance: Likewise, the few cities I mention in any given post are merely a few notable examples of tens and sometimes hundreds in any given region.

Anyways, especially notable is a Mixtec warlord known as 8 Deer Jaguar Claw. Born in the important Mixtec city-state of Tilantongo, he apparently (I say apparently because I'm not too well informed on this, not because we don't know: Much of his life and deeds are well documented) wasn't eligible to become ruler in Tilantongo (something with his sister being wedded to his archenemy 11 wind bloody jagur, who ruled another city that controlled it) and he then apparently either founded or became ruler of Tututepec, before going on a conquering spree, capturing Tilantongo, and forming an empire controlling the entire Mixtec area of Oaxaca as well parts of the Zapotec area & almost the entire Oaxaca coast, around 25k square KM's total. He was eventually killed in 1115 when the sole surviving member of the royal family of the city that his archenemy ruled over led an alliance of other mixtec states against him. Tututepec eventually fractured, but even at the time of Spanish arrival it was still pretty big & was one of the few Oaxacan states that could resist Aztec expansionism

9/?

that thing is creepy as shit

*tips travelers Maya hat*

Damn, i'm really slowing down with these, I only did oone today and I need to head to bed again, and I'll be busy most of tommorow. Hopefully you guys can keep it bumped for me so it doesn't die before I finish/can talk about other shit

I don't know why people always post those super stylized statues, plenty of these cultures had pretty complex and detailed craftsmenship, pic related is from a Maya site, for instance

Bump

These are from the same archeological site.

Bumping for content

Reminder that "mesoamericans" are not only the Maya, there were plenty of minor tribes like the chibchas, who were present from the south of modern Nicaragua to the center of modern Colombia

Not the same guy, but I'm compiling info about andean cultures and how technology appeared over time.

You forgot the northern people like the Chichimec

What content are you looking for specifically?

>chinese
>not shitshin

What does Veeky Forums know about the Pipil?

>ax
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

The only mesoamerican cultures that were actually "tribal" as of contact were the Chichimec in the North amd variois groups in the Yucatan in the jungle in pockets between the remaining Maya states.

Calling Mesoamerica cultures tribes generally would be like calling Asian or european cultures tribes: there were some rural, tribal groups in bumfuck nowhere europe, asia, and mesoamerica, but predominately it was urban cities and state societies

Can somebody post the andean timelinr?

How were Maya tribal? They were basically a bunch of city-states and kingdoms just like they were in the Classical period.

I wasn't saying the Maya were tribal (though there were some maya communities, especially in the postclassic, that would have been more like villages or towns then cities; though there were still larger state-level cities as well); I was saying there were tribal groups (some of which were ethnically Maya as well) in the land IN BETWEEN the remaining Maya-states, especially in the Highlands in the southern Yucatan, since most of the remaining maya states where in the Lowlands in the north

Pic related, anything with a "territorio" wasn't an actual political state and was either nomadic/tribal: As I was saying, you have the Chichimeca groups to the north, and various tribal socieites in the Yucatan in the spaces wherre there's not actual Maya political states left. (and also all throughout central-america proper but that';s not actually a part of mesoamerica)

neither are hohol, who cares
hohol mafia

Cont;

Also, apparently the Zapotec may have had had a unified state prior to the fall of Monte alban and not seperate city-states/kingdoms like I thought

Anyways, around the time of supposed Toltec rule, but especially towards the tail end of it as fractured in the 1100's, Northern Mesoamerica and Aridoamerica (the unlabeled region above "north of mexico" in ) was seeing increasing droughts and aridification. This led to a variety (7 in particular, according to legend) of Nahuatl speaking Chichimec groups ("chichimeca" were "uncivilized" nomadic-hunter gathers to simple farmers who lived in northern mesoamerica) which shared a similar cultural background to travel further south from a place called in myths as "Aztlan" (apparently arriving to Aztlan from an even earlier place calld the 7 caves (one per group) of Chicomoztoc, pic related). A lot of people like to point to this place being way above Mesoamerica in way north mexico or the SW US, but it was likely not that far up, more likely around the Bajio region of mexico. The Toltecs may have also been Nahuatl speaking, but again, might be Aztec propoganda and they wouldn't have been a part of this migration)

Most (but not all) of these Nahua groups settled in the valley of Mexico,the lake basin by which Teotihaucan was formerly built near; and transition from nomadism to agricultural, state societies. A notable Chichimec leader known as Xolotl came to power here, and Xolotl's daughter married into the royal family of the city-state of Azcapotzalco, which was inhabited by the Tepanac (The tepanacs being the descendants of one of these nahua groups with original otomi inhabitants of the city: The otomi had been settled around the valley prior to the Nahua groups coming down. Another one of the 7 nahua groups, the Acolhua, who were the inhabitants of the city of Texcoco, which will become important later, also at least partially otomi heritage)

10/?

shitskinned subhumans that got bleached under the boot of the white man where they belong

>meanwhile, whites didn't even iinvent writing or civilization independently

This is a very good overview, though I'd dispute

>Used atlatl, macuahuitl, spears, shields, helmets and armor. Other weapons like the bow and arrow or flying discs came later or were specific to certain people.
and
>Houses with straw rooftops, except palaces.

Macuahuitl was only developed in the postclassic. The Bow and Arrow was rarer then atlatl; and some groups did specialize in it (the Tlaxcala and Chichimeca, for instance) certainly, but it wasn't entirely exclusive to a specific group. And clubs/maces were quite common as well. Straw roofs were certainly the norm, especially for less affluant homes, but noble and upper class homes of plenty of cultures had stone roofs as well rather then straw.

Now the reverse is happening. Such is life.

1st is a zambo.
2nd is mestizo.
3rd is trirracial.
4th is native.
5th is mestizo.
6th is mestizo and probably Bolivian immigrant.

If you have a hard-on with these kind of pairings go to Cusco or any night-club in Peru.

Also, Western mesoamerican doesn;t follow most of those religious traits

the great amerindian cuckening can't be undone, the people in these pics are not socially dominant over each other and think nothing of domination, in fact they see themselves as part of the same country and same spanish speaking culture.
the spanish bull is eternally victorious.

>that'd be like asking how European and Asian civilizations compare to each other over the course of their history
It really isn't though

sadly as interesting as history can be it sometimes boils down to essentially this because of how irrelevant it is

If you truly understood the diversity, complexity of the peoples in just those two regions (mesoamerica and the andes) it would not seem so crazy to think so. I suppose more ignorant people kinda think they were all similar. But even within these respective groups theres big differences (language, customs, governance, clothing). Even the terrain varies quite a bit within the regions from semi-desert to tropical rainforest and everything in between.

Speaking of, looking into my latest research on the clothing it seems the quechquemitl may be a northwest and chichimec import into the rest of Mesoamerica. While the huipil-tunic, may have come from South America.

t. Spanimoor

Amerindians can't really be called cucked because in their philosophy they are all connected so in actuality anyone actively trying to dominate that natural balance is a true cuck for letting greed destroy their humanity. You can conquer but never learn the joys of laugh without it, because you are only encouraged to take and not stop and think or appreciate anything other than selfish tendencies

Explain how it's not.

The only places that's really true is most of what's now the US, south america outside the andes, parts of africa, and Australia. Andean and Mesoamerican history is as complex's as europe's, asia's, and the middle east's; with the caveat that the regions only have like 2000-3000 years of history of civilization vs the 4000-5000 that those have.

Oh, is that you? Would you be able to skim over the posts i've been making and post if I got anything wrong? I'm sure you'd be able to provide summary for the classic maya then I was able to.

Dude, I have nothing against Amerindians. In fact, I think their kind of cute. But that is the most cucked defense of being cucked I have ever heard. I also don't know of any Amerindian group that actually believes that shit. It sounds like some hippie nonsense that was falsely attributed to the "noble savage" in order to lend it some legitimacy.

I don't even understand what you faggots are talking about

bump

Not much, they aren't actually in mesoamerica, but central america, which while having some cultural interchange (hence why they speak a nahuatl related language) was still a culturally distinct region

You're wrong, actually they are part of Mesoamerica. Nearly every academic source I've looked at confirms it. Mesoamerica isn't only Mexico and Guatemala. See the map here Even famsi lists their area as part of Mesoamerica.

famsi.org/maps/

They are nahuas after all, like the Aztec.

I can explain some things about the Pipil if you'd like.

Are you sure that book's reliable? On one page it basicaly claims that Cortes beat and subjugated the tlaxcallans rather then it being the tlaxcalla having basically run cortes into a corner and then having spared him, and it also iirc claims hat the tlaxcallan, tontonacs, etc didn't contribute much to the siege of Tenochtitlan, which is fucking absurd.

It also claims that copper arroowheads and axes got used, and as I am aware that's untrue.

As far as the Pipil go, it pretty much just regurgitates what was written about them at the time.

Why are the Preclassic people always omitted from these Mesoamerica threads?

...

I went into the preclassic/formative period a bit in , but I simply don't know enoough about the period to have gone into detail on it

On that note i'll be making another post for that stuff later tonight, I know i've slowed down significantly

>Would you be able to skim over the posts i've been making and post if I got anything wrong? I'm sure you'd be able to provide summary for the classic maya then I was able to.
alright, finishing up some commissions so I'll read on my breaks

Just a few things to mention. The Preclassic period also experienced a 'collapse' of it's own similar to the Classic collapse. And you missed an important Maya site of that period, Kaminaljuyu. Also one of the earliest depictions of the Hero twin myth of the Maya was in the mural of San Bartolo another Preclassic Maya site. Pic related.

In the Classic period, the major rival powers were Tikal or Mutal of the Hairknot dynasty and Calakmul or Kan, of the Serpent dynasty. Tikal began expanding and Calakmuls challenged their power. Calakmul got the better of Tikal after the king, Yuknoom the Great succesfully pitted it's own family members against each other from the Dos Pilas alliance which was originally a Tikal satellite city run by Tikal's king's own brother. Calakmul and Dos Pilas both invaded Tikal and killed it's king. Tikal got revenge and took control of the city again 5 years later, driving the treacherous Dos Pilas king to exile. Eventually Calakmul took back the city and reinstated the Dos Pilas king. One of his daughters went on to rule Naranjo, and she is famous for being one of the few female warlords of Mesoamerica, expanding Naranjos power. Tikals king defeated Calakmul in a humiliating blow, so bad the city never again erected a victory monument. As added salt to the wound Tikal stole the city's patron deity and Tikals king, Jasaw Chan K'awil placed it on his throne. In the end Tikal won, but at a great cost and in about a century they would collapse. Other cities of note: Yaxchilan, who warred with Palenque, Caracol who warred with Tikal and got stronger after the Naranjo and Tikal wars, Bonampak, which was a rather small site compared to the others but has one of the best preserved murals of the period, Coba in the Yucatan who managed to overcome the collapse and remain relevant but with declining power in the Postclassic, Copan in Honduras and Quirigua who were very late powers before the collapse.

You got info about andean timeline?

It's fuzzy, I read about it a while back but need to refreshen my memory.

Thanks. How does any of that play into Teotihaucan's influence in tthe region, if at all? As I said before I'm under the understanding it installed some puppet rulers in a few tikal associated cities.

Teotihuacan is said to have introduced the atlatl and the idea of mass conscription for battles when they got involved with Tikal. It's unclear what their relationship is, whether it was outright conquest, a vassal state or puppet. But, they apparently changed the nature of war with the Maya who had previously fought smaller scale battles (at least this is what we know so far). This gave Tikal later on the edge when they were waging war with their Maya neighboring city-states and everyone eventually adopted this. There's some deities which also made their way into their civilization like the war serpent which to them was known as Waxaklajuun Ubaj Chan and has Plumed Serpent origins which would later evolve into the cults of Kukulkan and Gucumatz in the Postclassic. The cultural influence of Teotihuacan went as far as Honduras in Copan. There you see figures dressed in the massive Teotihuacan styled headdresses and eye goggles. Also, Maya merchant family and maybe some royal members went to Teotihuacan and lived in their own neighborhood there in apartment complexes.

There are some theories also which point that the Olmeca-Xicallanco from the Gulf coast may be Maya migrants who settled there in 400 BC. And were involved in the ultimate demise of Teotihucan after it had began to collapse from within from internal conflict of other migrant groups (they believe this internal conflict was between the locals and refugees that fled from volcanic eruption). Much of these are theories though, what I wrote previously can be documented well however.

>the great amerindian cuckening can't be undone
then explain the millions of full blooded natives throughout latin america

he's kinda right, but he said it in the dumbest and vaguest way. he says they are all connected and that is very true for many natives. just look at how much land the uto-aztecan language covers.

the spanish rape meme, and how retardes assume every woman from Alaska to Patagonia was raped and no full blooded Amerindians exist today anywhere in the world.

a lot of people think mesoamericans were savages and the other half don't know anything beyond the aztec, maya and inca.

personally i've become very interested in the chupicuaro culture, a preclassical culture(800 BCE to 200 CE) from central mexico, that existed along side the olmec

Well rape and intermarriage were a real thing throughout latin american history between whites and natives. There are colonial documents that talk of rape cases.

>inca
>mesoamerican

Mayaincatec

>i'll be making another post for that stuff later tonight
tfw fell asleep prior to doing it

Cont:

As mentioned, Xolotl's daughter married into the royal family at Azcapotzalco, and their son, Tezozomoc, who was born in 1304, would become massively important.

Prior to this, though, the last of the Nahua groups that came down from up north arrived in the Valley of Mexico around 1250: The Mexica. There's a lot of legends about how exactly they came down and what happened. To be honest, i'm not clear on a lot of the finer details, and a lot of this is known to be myth/likely isn't what actually happened, so i'm only going to give a basic outline of what the legend is and not go into specifics: If you want specifics, i'm sure you can find books tthat go into super detailed versions of what supposedly happen, there's bits about a scorned witch i';m excluding, for instance

When the Mexica arrive, pretty much all of the good land had already been claimed by other Nahua groups and there were already established cities. They initially settled in Chapultepec, either being given permission to settle there by the City-state of Colhuaca, which had Toltec ancestry; or settling there without authority, and being driven out of Chapultepec, were given permission by Colhuaca to settle in Tizapan. Either way, they end up in Tizapan. This forged a bond bewtween the Mexica and Colhuaca, and the Mexica asked Colhuaca's king for a daughter. They obliged, thinking the Mexica meant for marriage, when in reality it was for a sacrifice, and the king allegedly walked in on her skin being worn, which obviously caused them to take up arms to drive the Mexica out

So, forced to flee, they went to a shitty, swampy island in the middle of lake texcoco in the valley, where they found a eagle eating a snake while perched on a cactus. Or just an eagle on a cactus. Or a half eaten snake on the cactus without the eagle, as seen in pic related

11/?

What?

It's a phrase people say when they confuse all three into one culture. It's used in movies like the Road to El Dorado, which should have been based on the Chibchans.

Was Xolotl like a Genghis Khan of Mesoamerica?

Yes but for some reason too many people think it happened to every woman in the Americas and that no "true" natives exist today, and that's completely false.

This thread lacks pics

...